An all-rounder's journey

[zen]

A good batting & bowling AR is the most valuable asset for any team. For many fans, a good AR is automatically placed among their favorite cricketers. Below I will attempt to chart a course where ARs in LOIs should ideally move (Sir Garry Sobers would be excluded but here is a thread on him). 

 

Below using selected retired cricketers: 

 

Zero Point -------------------------> Pit Stop -------------------------> Destination

 

Kapil Dev                                              Lance Klusener                                    Imran Khan

Shahid Afridi

 

 

 

At Zero Point, a player is good enough to be in the team for the combinations he brings to the table. Usually contributes well in both aspects of the game and serves well to offer balance to his team. From time to time, the player comes with a memorable game changing performance in one or the other aspect of the game. Examples include Kapil Dev and Shahid Afridi. 

 

Pit Stop, at this stage, the player is as good as those at Zero Point, however, he masters at least one domain to be placed in the top tier of it. For e.g. when you think about a lower middle order batsman in ODIs, Klusener name pops up right along with that of specialist batsman such as Bevan. The 2nd aspect of his cricket remains more or less competitive too. 

 

Destination, here, the player is pretty much a perfect AR, who can be as good as or close to the specialist players in both the respective domains. He arrives at this point by learning, evolving, and challenging himself, along with conducting an introspection at the Pit Stop.  Factors such as captaincy can add another dimension to his cricket. For e.g. Imran Khan who is good enough to bat almost anywhere in the line up and also perform as a "strike" bowler, additionally is rated among the best captains of all-time. 

 

 

Among current ARs, who is at which point on this journey in ODIs & T20s?

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by zen

[Need4Speed]

I know what you are getting onto..haha..Pandya needs to stepup up his batting for me..he is going into accumulation mode..kind of role he play for his iPL side being a captain..but we are missing the firepower in Indian lower order due to that..its good that SKY is there but we need Pandya to assist him..

his bowling is improving thats good..just need to stay fit..need to see him more in ODIs if he can keep injury free while bowling or..he can just discuss with Team management he can only give 5 overs to increase his life in ODIs..

[Vickydev]

Sir Don (2017)----->Sir Don (2020)----->Sir Don(2023) 

 

Wonder where he will be in another 3 years time. No Destination is big enough for him. 

#BreakingBarriers #BarodaToBarbados

[Serpico]

Cameron green has lot of potential. Ben is at second level but with his sensational captaincy, he might reach imran territory one day 

[Sooda]

On 2/4/2023 at 11:00 PM, zen said:

A good batting & bowling AR is the most valuable asset for any team. For many fans, a good AR is automatically placed among their favorite cricketers. Below I will attempt to chart a course where ARs in LOIs should ideally move (Sir Garry Sobers would be excluded but here is a thread on him). 

 

Below using selected retired cricketers: 

 

Zero Point -------------------------> Pit Stop -------------------------> Destination

 

Kapil Dev                                              Lance Klusener                                    Imran Khan

Shahid Afridi

 

 

 

At Zero Point, a player is good enough to be in the team for the combinations he brings to the table. Usually contributes well in both aspects of the game and serves well to offer balance to his team. From time to time, the player comes with a memorable game changing performance in one or the other aspect of the game. Examples include Kapil Dev and Shahid Afridi. 

 

Pit Stop, at this stage, the player is as good as those at Zero Point, however, he masters at least one domain to be placed in the top tier of it. For e.g. when you think about a lower middle order batsman in ODIs, Klusener name pops up right along with that of specialist batsman such as Bevan. The 2nd aspect of his cricket remains more or less competitive too. 

 

Destination, here, the player is pretty much a perfect AR, who can be as good as or close to the specialist players in both the respective domains. He arrives at this point by learning, evolving, and challenging himself, along with conducting an introspection at the Pit Stop.  Factors such as captaincy can add another dimension to his cricket. For e.g. Imran Khan who is good enough to bat almost anywhere in the line up and also perform as a "strike" bowler, additionally is rated among the best captains of all-time. 

 

 

Among current ARs, who is at which point on this journey in ODIs & T20s?

 

 

To me this does Kapil bit of a disservice in ODIs...

 

At their peak I dont think there would have been much between him and Imran in terms of bowling, though would agree that perhaps Imran shades it

 

For batting, it depends on what you want : Imran was a "better batsman". But in LOIs, both played mostly at no 6, though Imran was more suited to 5 at least... Imran striking at 75 and averaging  30, Kapil averaging 26 striking at close to 100...  I would take the latter of the two in that lower mid order position

Edited February 7, 2023 by Sooda

[zen]

11 minutes ago, Sooda said:

 

To me this does Kapil bit of a disservice in ODIs...

 

At their peak I dont think there would have been much between him and Imran in terms of bowling, though would agree that perhaps Imran shades it

 

For batting, it depends on what you want : Imran was a "better batsman". But in LOIs, both played mostly at no 6, though Imran was more suited to 5 at least... Imran striking at 75 and averaging  30, Kapil averaging 26 striking at close to 100...  I would take the latter of the two in that lower mid order position

 

IMO, Kapil Dev is comparable to Shahid Afridi, both are like one tempo batsman who don't play the match situations ... Imran Khan played match situations & was a big match player too (1987 SF, 1989 Nehru Cup MoS, 1992 F), his batting average is higher than that of many specialist batsman of his time such as Srikant and similar to a Gavaskar. 

 

There is no competition in my book. 

[coffee_rules]

2 hours ago, Sooda said:

 

To me this does Kapil bit of a disservice in ODIs...

 

At their peak I dont think there would have been much between him and Imran in terms of bowling, though would agree that perhaps Imran shades it

 

For batting, it depends on what you want : Imran was a "better batsman". But in LOIs, both played mostly at no 6, though Imran was more suited to 5 at least... Imran striking at 75 and averaging  30, Kapil averaging 26 striking at close to 100...  I would take the latter of the two in that lower mid order position

You should stop discussing least read books ever

[kruiser]

Kapil alone won the world cup for India.. un assisted by weather or chance. In my book - the best allrounder with the right attitude for that era. 

[Majestic]

Kapil is widely regarded as ODI ATG...Great bowler, good batsman, great captain, great fielder.

 

Pandya is a good bowler, good batsman, great fielder category in LOIs.

[Sooda]

16 hours ago, zen said:

 

IMO, Kapil Dev is comparable to Shahid Afridi, both are like one tempo batsman who don't play the match situations ... Imran Khan played match situations & was a big match player too (1987 SF, 1989 Nehru Cup MoS, 1992 F), his batting average is higher than that of many specialist batsman of his time such as Srikant and similar to a Gavaskar. 

 

There is no competition in my book. 

 

Like I said, agree that Imran is better. However Kapil is the better option when you need quick runs from a no 6 or 7 at the death.

[zen]

1 hour ago, Sooda said:

 

Like I said, agree that Imran is better. However Kapil is the better option when you need quick runs from a no 6 or 7 at the death.

Imran was a big hitter too esp. when he wanted to … Talking about someone who can hit big, Afridi who has over 8K ODI runs with 6 ODI 100s (including the fastest one iirc) can be a better option than Kapil!

[putrevus]

Lol at Idiots who think Imran was better allrounder than Kapil Dev in odis. Imran was a tailender for most part of his career where as Kapil Dev could score runs any bowling attack , his innings against a rampaging Patrick Paterson in 1987 in Nagpur when whole batting collpased. He led the 1983 world cup beating the strongest assembled odi team of that era not once but twice in the tournament. 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/west-indies-tour-of-india-1987-88-61942/india-vs-west-indies-1st-odi-64313/full-scorecard

 

Afiridi was better odi allrounder than Imran ever was his career.Unlike flukey victory of Pakistan in 1992 where if not for rain they would not even made to semis. Pandya would be good  if he can even match 1/100th of what Afridi was as an allrounder in white ball cricket.

[speedracer]

On 2/5/2023 at 9:00 AM, zen said:

A good batting & bowling AR is the most valuable asset for any team. For many fans, a good AR is automatically placed among their favorite cricketers. Below I will attempt to chart a course where ARs in LOIs should ideally move (Sir Garry Sobers would be excluded but here is a thread on him). 

 

Below using selected retired cricketers: 

 

Zero Point -------------------------> Pit Stop -------------------------> Destination

 

Kapil Dev                                              Lance Klusener                                    Imran Khan

Shahid Afridi

 

 

 

At Zero Point, a player is good enough to be in the team for the combinations he brings to the table. Usually contributes well in both aspects of the game and serves well to offer balance to his team. From time to time, the player comes with a memorable game changing performance in one or the other aspect of the game. Examples include Kapil Dev and Shahid Afridi. 

 

Pit Stop, at this stage, the player is as good as those at Zero Point, however, he masters at least one domain to be placed in the top tier of it. For e.g. when you think about a lower middle order batsman in ODIs, Klusener name pops up right along with that of specialist batsman such as Bevan. The 2nd aspect of his cricket remains more or less competitive too. 

 

Destination, here, the player is pretty much a perfect AR, who can be as good as or close to the specialist players in both the respective domains. He arrives at this point by learning, evolving, and challenging himself, along with conducting an introspection at the Pit Stop.  Factors such as captaincy can add another dimension to his cricket. For e.g. Imran Khan who is good enough to bat almost anywhere in the line up and also perform as a "strike" bowler, additionally is rated among the best captains of all-time. 

 

 

Among current ARs, who is at which point on this journey in ODIs & T20s?

 

Imran as a bowler was superior overall despite kapils good record vs mighty w.indies. cant just perform against one team albeit the best team and be rated as the best AR. Against the rest of the the field imrans record is superior. 

 

As a bowler imran is better although you could say kapil had little to no support from Pacers in his team. 

 

As a batsman I give the edge to kapil for odi. 

 

The difference between kapil's batting and imran is lesser than the skill discrpenecy in the bowling department where imran is clearly superior. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by speedracer

[coffee_rules]

9 minutes ago, speedracer said:

Imran as a bowler was superior overall despite kapils good record vs mighty w.indies. cant just perform against one team albeit the best team and be rated as the best AR. Against the rest of the the field imrans record is superior. 

 

As a bowler imran is better although you could say kapil had little to no support from Pacers in his team. 

 

As a batsman I give the edge to kapil for odi. 

 

The difference between kapil's batting and imran is lesser than the skill discrpenecy in the bowling department where imran is clearly superior. 

Imran is a serial offender with bottle caps as attested by his own peers like Sarfaraz 

[zen]

In the MO till the mid 90s:

 

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date less than or equal to 1 Jan 1995

Batting position between 4 and 7

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 1500

Ordered by batting average (descending)

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0
MD Crowe (NZ)	1983-1994	59	57	15	1910	105*	45.47	2545	75.04	2	12	2
IVA Richards (WI)	1975-1991	133	115	15	4298	189*	42.98	4663	92.17	6	30	4
Javed Miandad (PAK)	1975-1993	197	187	33	6233	119*	40.47	9540	65.33	7	40	8
CH Lloyd (WI)	1973-1985	84	69	19	1977	102	39.54	2434	81.22	1	11	1
AJ Lamb (ENG)	1983-1992	110	106	14	3388	108*	36.82	4483	75.57	3	23	8
M Azharuddin (IND)	1985-1994	137	130	27	3749	108*	36.39	4807	77.99	2	19	3
DB Vengsarkar (IND)	1978-1991	83	76	14	2223	95*	35.85	3218	69.08	0	16	5
A Ranatunga (SL)	1982-1994	144	136	25	3832	101*	34.52	4999	76.65	1	25	5
Imran Khan (PAK)	1975-1992	158	139	37	3431	102*	33.63	4589	74.76	1	18	6
PA de Silva (SL)	1984-1994	111	110	12	3262	105	33.28	4021	81.12	2	25	4
CL Hooper (WI)	1987-1994	122	107	25	2625	113*	32.01	3634	72.23	2	13	4
JV Coney (NZ)	1979-1987	79	72	16	1783	66*	31.83	2759	64.62	0	8	1
Saleem Malik (PAK)	1982-1994	144	129	22	3379	100*	31.57	4153	81.36	1	24	8
SR Waugh (AUS)	1986-1994	168	149	37	3455	86	30.84	4767	72.47	0	17	5
AR Border (AUS)	1979-1994	219	201	36	5088	127*	30.83	6835	74.44	2	31	8
KR Rutherford (NZ)	1987-1994	73	69	7	1896	108	30.58	2720	69.70	2	10	5
SR Tendulkar (IND)	1989-1994	61	60	8	1582	84	30.42	2162	73.17	0	12	3
JN Rhodes (SA)	1992-1994	60	58	7	1508	66	29.56	2098	71.87	0	5	2
AL Logie (WI)	1981-1993	145	122	34	2583	109*	29.35	3453	74.80	1	13	12
PJL Dujon (WI)	1981-1991	145	103	33	1706	82*	24.37	2579	66.14	0	5	6
LRD Mendis (SL)	1975-1989	75	72	9	1525	80	24.20	2028	75.19	0	7	3
Ijaz Ahmed (PAK)	1986-1994	91	79	13	1591	110	24.10	1982	80.27	1	7	2
N Kapil Dev (IND)	1978-1994	205	185	35	3423	87	22.82	3654	93.67	0	13	13

[singhvivek141]

28 minutes ago, zen said:

In the MO till the mid 90s:

 

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date less than or equal to 1 Jan 1995

Batting position between 4 and 7

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 1500

Ordered by batting average (descending)

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0
MD Crowe (NZ)	1983-1994	59	57	15	1910	105*	45.47	2545	75.04	2	12	2
IVA Richards (WI)	1975-1991	133	115	15	4298	189*	42.98	4663	92.17	6	30	4
Javed Miandad (PAK)	1975-1993	197	187	33	6233	119*	40.47	9540	65.33	7	40	8
CH Lloyd (WI)	1973-1985	84	69	19	1977	102	39.54	2434	81.22	1	11	1
AJ Lamb (ENG)	1983-1992	110	106	14	3388	108*	36.82	4483	75.57	3	23	8
M Azharuddin (IND)	1985-1994	137	130	27	3749	108*	36.39	4807	77.99	2	19	3
DB Vengsarkar (IND)	1978-1991	83	76	14	2223	95*	35.85	3218	69.08	0	16	5
A Ranatunga (SL)	1982-1994	144	136	25	3832	101*	34.52	4999	76.65	1	25	5
Imran Khan (PAK)	1975-1992	158	139	37	3431	102*	33.63	4589	74.76	1	18	6
PA de Silva (SL)	1984-1994	111	110	12	3262	105	33.28	4021	81.12	2	25	4
CL Hooper (WI)	1987-1994	122	107	25	2625	113*	32.01	3634	72.23	2	13	4
JV Coney (NZ)	1979-1987	79	72	16	1783	66*	31.83	2759	64.62	0	8	1
Saleem Malik (PAK)	1982-1994	144	129	22	3379	100*	31.57	4153	81.36	1	24	8
SR Waugh (AUS)	1986-1994	168	149	37	3455	86	30.84	4767	72.47	0	17	5
AR Border (AUS)	1979-1994	219	201	36	5088	127*	30.83	6835	74.44	2	31	8
KR Rutherford (NZ)	1987-1994	73	69	7	1896	108	30.58	2720	69.70	2	10	5
SR Tendulkar (IND)	1989-1994	61	60	8	1582	84	30.42	2162	73.17	0	12	3
JN Rhodes (SA)	1992-1994	60	58	7	1508	66	29.56	2098	71.87	0	5	2
AL Logie (WI)	1981-1993	145	122	34	2583	109*	29.35	3453	74.80	1	13	12
PJL Dujon (WI)	1981-1991	145	103	33	1706	82*	24.37	2579	66.14	0	5	6
LRD Mendis (SL)	1975-1989	75	72	9	1525	80	24.20	2028	75.19	0	7	3
Ijaz Ahmed (PAK)	1986-1994	91	79	13	1591	110	24.10	1982	80.27	1	7	2
N Kapil Dev (IND)	1978-1994	205	185	35	3423	87	22.82	3654	93.67	0	13	13

I have seen Imran only during his last year (as a cricketer)
He had very good technique to play as a batter, considering he started as a pure bowler,it was his stint with county teams helped him a lot in developing strong defensive technique. He was also benefitted a lot by the presence of Waqar and Wasim on the other end, due to which from 1989-1992 he started by less overs in ODI's (average ~ 7.2 overs per match) .

 

Kapil on the other hand was always an airy fairy brute hitter, even during his last legs, he was the only one in the team who can actually tonk the ball and use long handle. Not to mention the workload that he has to kept on carrying as a pure bowler (from 1989-1993 on an average ~ 8.3 over per match).

 

Kapil had to play aggressive, not only because that's the only way he knew, but also because he had to, as Indian bowling was weaker (thus high scores to defend) and Indian batters mostly were slow scorers. Imran had that benefit courtesy of a strong bowling lineup which can defend even the competitive totals.

[putrevus]

18 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

I have seen Imran only during his last year (as a cricketer)
He had very good technique to play as a batter, considering he started as a pure bowler,it was his stint with county teams helped him a lot in developing strong defensive technique. He was also benefitted a lot by the presence of Waqar and Wasim on the other end, due to which from 1989-1992 he started by less overs in ODI's (average ~ 7.2 overs per match) .

 

Kapil on the other hand was always an airy fairy brute hitter, even during his last legs, he was the only one in the team who can actually tonk the ball and use long handle. Not to mention the workload that he has to kept on carrying as a pure bowler (from 1989-1993 on an average ~ 8.3 over per match).

 

Kapil had to play aggressive, not only because that's the only way he knew, but also because he had to, as Indian bowling was weaker (thus high scores to defend) and Indian batters mostly were slow scorers. Imran had that benefit courtesy of a strong bowling lineup which can defend even the competitive totals.

IMO you measure greatness of any player at peak of their powers. Kapil Dev at his best is far superior odi batsman than Imran Khan it is not even close.. As odi bowler Kapil without any benefit of strong backup bowlers had better economy and similar avg along with SR as Imran.

 

For the positions they batted I would take Kapil's batting over Imran Khan in all formats .Kapil was a match winner/saver with bat who could score against any bowling attack on any ground on his day in test cricket.His last test century speaks volumes about his batting talent.Botham was the best batsman among the four allrounders in test cricket followed by Kapil then Imran.Hadlee was the best bowler followed by Imran.

 

Imran sure was a better test bowler than Kapil Dev but Kapil never had benefit of reverse swing.

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by putrevus

[zen]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

I have seen Imran only during his last year (as a cricketer)
He had very good technique to play as a batter, considering he started as a pure bowler,it was his stint with county teams helped him a lot in developing strong defensive technique. He was also benefitted a lot by the presence of Waqar and Wasim on the other end, due to which from 1989-1992 he started by less overs in ODI's (average ~ 7.2 overs per match) .

 

Kapil on the other hand was always an airy fairy brute hitter, even during his last legs, he was the only one in the team who can actually tonk the ball and use long handle. Not to mention the workload that he has to kept on carrying as a pure bowler (from 1989-1993 on an average ~ 8.3 over per match).

 

Kapil had to play aggressive, not only because that's the only way he knew, but also because he had to, as Indian bowling was weaker (thus high scores to defend) and Indian batters mostly were slow scorers. Imran had that benefit courtesy of a strong bowling lineup which can defend even the competitive totals.

 

Imran was a very good batsman (could have been as good as a top specialist one if he wanted to be one) who could be be slotted almost anywhere in the line up.  In 1992 World Cup, he was almost 40 years old and had to be called out of retirement. 

 

In Nehru Cup, he was the man of the series esp. for his batting. His is also a big match player. In the final against the WI, he scored an unbeaten 55 and picked up 3 wkts. Below his batting in Nehru Cup:

 

Primary team Pakistan

Trophy MRF World Series (Nehru Cup)

Batting position between 1 and 7

Ordered by batting average (descending)

 

Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
Imran Khan	7	7	3	252	84*	63.00	321	78.50	0	2	0	13	3
Saleem Malik	7	7	1	279	71	46.50	264	105.68	0	2	0	29	4
Ramiz Raja	6	6	1	230	85*	46.00	283	81.27	0	2	0	22	1
Aamer Malik	4	3	0	131	77	43.66	193	67.87	0	2	0	12	0
Wasim Akram	2	2	1	29	29	29.00	30	96.66	0	0	0	0	0
Shoaib Mohammad	4	4	0	99	73	24.75	237	41.77	0	1	0	9	0
Javed Miandad	6	6	0	134	39	22.33	245	54.69	0	0	0	5	2
Akram Raza	1	1	0	19	19	19.00	30	63.33	0	0	0	1	0
Abdul Qadir	2	2	0	35	18	17.50	42	83.33	0	0	0	2	1
Ijaz Ahmed	7	6	0	103	56	17.16	137	75.18	0	1	1	11	1

 

 

 

On the other hand, Kapil Dev milked Indian cricket to the max based on one knock of 175*. His last 7 years of cricket:

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1988 and 1 Jan 1995

Batting position between 1 and 7

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 1000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0
NS Sidhu	1988-1994	71	69	4	2561	134*	39.40	3705	69.12	4	17	4
VG Kambli	1991-1994	47	43	11	1225	100*	38.28	1756	69.76	1	7	1
M Azharuddin	1988-1994	117	113	20	3425	108*	36.82	4244	80.70	2	19	4
SR Tendulkar	1989-1994	82	81	9	2550	115	35.41	3247	78.53	3	19	6
SV Manjrekar	1988-1994	44	43	4	1256	105	32.20	2026	61.99	1	10	2
K Srikkanth	1988-1992	57	56	2	1571	112	29.09	2332	67.36	2	10	3
RJ Shastri	1988-1992	54	53	6	1313	109	27.93	2275	57.71	2	6	2
N Kapil Dev	1988-1994	101	91	18	1369	52	18.75	1634	83.78	0	1	4

 

Basically, lost his steam after 30 and continued to play on. 

 

Once a cricketer retires, people remember him for his positives. Kapil Dev is remembered for his 175* (still continues to milk those emotions) while his other flop to average knocks in over 150 innings are ignored. If Kapil played cricket now, I doubt if he would be even able to complete his quota of overs (note played a majority of his cricket with red ball and with no power play). 

 

Kapil was by-and-large  a one dimensional cricketer both in batting and bowling. Even his on field captaincy was mundane. As a kid, I could easily guess the exact bowling and batting order. Only when Srikant became the captain in 1989 is when India could see a relatively more proactive (say closer to Imran Khan type of) captaincy. 

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by zen