Was India's greatest fast bowler Kapil Dev a Tim Southee level bowler?

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Pandya once injured himself when he celebrated lol From a fitness point of view comparing Pandya with Kapil is an insult. 

Injuries are different from fitness. Pandya is very fit and athletic too, he had the tools to become a good allrounder.But he does not have the drive to become the best.

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

Injuries are different from fitness. Pandya is very fit and athletic too, he had the tools to become a good allrounder.But he does not have the drive to become the best.

 

Staying injury free requires flexibility. Weight training doesn't provide the flexibility to deal with work load.Until he completes his quota every match atleast 80% of his bowling quota he is truly not an all rounder. And also he has to be available in every match for 3 or 4 years bare minimum. Cannot go missing every other series. 

[Adamant]

Good lord! I have never seen any poster in any forum call Kapil a mediocre flash in the pan cricketer. 

 

 

He was rated the greatest odi allrounder of all time in cricket web forum.. 

 

He is even rated on that Pakistani forum but here we are hyping up an average cricketer on the expense of a GOAT cricketer. 

 

 

[vijaydude]

Are Pandya fans seriously denigrating Kapil?

[raki05]

Lol looks like we have hit the nerve As soon as Dandya has been brought in to discussion , all hell broke loose and we are receiving overwhelming insult to kapil. It’s like some 3rd grade road side expert from Pakistan getting triggered when gobar azam stats has been pointed out.

[rollingstoned]

Kapil is considered on a plane that contains other great ARs of his time like Imran, Botham and Hadlee with no debate around that from anyone while Southee himself is not considered anywhere near Hadlee as a bowler alone by any Kiwi fan. Accounting even for different eras it says enough imo.

[zen]

The discussion is on Kapil the test bowler. Having watched him bowl, I can tell that he is nowhere near a Hadlee or an Imran. A Botham, yes.

 

In fact, there were many good to great bowlers in Kapil's era at various points including Lillee, Hadlee, Marshall, Garner, Holding, Roberts, Ambrose, Walsh, Imran, Wasim, Donald, etc. And Kapil would not be in the top bracket. 

 

There is a belief in some quarters that if Kapil had better support, he could have done better, but if he had better support, he would not be the main bowler and therefore not even had a long career unless competing as an AR … It is irrelevant whether Kapil or Southee is better (both are not top tier bowlers).

 

Btw, talking about Botham. He single-handedly won a test in India in 1979-80 - Link. Hadlee did that in 1988-89, picking up 10 wickets in the 2nd test at Wankhede. 

Edited March 24, 2023 by zen

[coffee_rules]

On 3/20/2023 at 3:45 AM, Majestic said:

Pre-84 is pretty good.

 

Matches - 62, WKts - 247, AVG 27.

 

But next 70 tests are poor with close to 180 wickets. 

 

Conclusion, Kapil was an excellent bowler in first half and a good batsman.

 

But in second half, he was just a Jason Holder level A/R.

As a bowler he was finished in 1984 after the knee surgery. Comparison to Jason as an AR for batting is a major disservice, even for statsguru posters. He had a major impact as a batsman, even in 90s when he could hit 4 6s to save a follow-on against Hemmings or score a 100 in 1992 in SA.  Calling his superior home record due to home umpires is pure trolling. We had home umpires who would be trigger happy to please the whiteman! See the tied test in 1987 as a caseworker. Stop reading scorecards and read contemporary cricket writers to knpw how great a player is. He won a WC on his own for India, FGS. Bade aaye Southee ko compare karne wale.

 

He is a GOAT in fitness. He would have the WC in playing most tests without a break , but for SunnyG dropping him after 1984 Kolkata test against ENg for reckless batting. It is like Pant getting dropped after WTC final reckless batting. He is that big in batting alone as an impact player, not a stat padder like Imran.

 

if you want to know more about cheating home umpires, read about 1985 Aus against Indians or in 1992 in SA. Some old timers can talk about 1976 WI against India

Edited March 24, 2023 by coffee_rules

[raki05]

9 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

As a bowler he was finished in 1984 after the knee surgery. Comparison to Jason as an AR for batting is a major disservice, even for statsguru posters. He had a major impact as a batsman, even in 90s when he could hit 4 6s to save a follow-on against Hemmings or score a 100 in 1992 in SA.  Calling his superior home record due to home umpires is pure trolling. We had home umpires who would be trigger happy to please the whiteman! See the tied test in 1987 as a caseworker. Stop reading scorecards and read contemporary cricket writers to knpw how great a player is. He won a WC on his own for India, FGS. Bade aaye Southee ko compare karne wale.

 

He is a GOAT in fitness. He would have the WC in playing most tests without a break , but for SunnyG dropping him after 1984 Kolkata test against ENg for reckless batting. It is like Pant getting dropped after WTC final reckless batting. He is that big in batting alone as an impact player, not a stat padder like Imran

Spot on No doubt about Kapil being a peerless cricketer and one of greatest all rounder. However my purpose of being in this thread was different and it’s done.l wanted a triggered reaction here and some new thread to be open by comparing Bandya stats to show how kapil was a puny cricketer in front of Bandya.

[rollingstoned]

1 hour ago, zen said:

The discussion is on Kapil the test bowler. Having watched him bowl, I can tell that he is nowhere near a Hadlee or an Imran. A Botham, yes.

 

In fact, there were many good to great bowlers in Kapil's era at various points including Lillee, Hadlee, Marshall, Garner, Holding, Roberts, Ambrose, Walsh, Imran, Wasim, Donald, etc. And Kapil would not be in the top bracket. 

 

There is a belief in some quarters that if Kapil had better support, he could have done better, but if he had better support, he would not be the main bowler and therefore not even had a long career unless competing as an AR … It is irrelevant whether Kapil or Southee is better (both are not top tier bowlers).

 

Btw, talking about Botham. He single-handedly won a test in India in 1979-80 - Link. Hadlee did that in 1988-89, picking up 10 wickets in the 2nd test at Wankhede. 

How good he was as a bowler is a matter of debate and subjectivity, certainly as an overall cricketer he is rated as among the finest to play the game across the board. Not just by Indians. Consensus also seems to be that by the time he finished his career he was an ODI ATG if not quite as good in tests. 

Bolded ones are not Kapil's contemporaries, the claim is not being made that he was the best bowler or among the absolute best to ever play the game which narrows that down to only around 10 or so so that doesn't need to be addressed unless one is making a straw man. There being a few better bowlers at that time does not mean by itself that he was not much cop since that seems to be the implication. Thread starter directly comparing Kapil and Southee is why that discussion became relevant. 

 

Regarding support, if the kind of bowler you are claiming was playing for us he ie Kapil would have been the support ergo that bowler would have been the main bowler. Here the claim is that with better support as the main bowler he would have done better which is not an unreasonable claim to make and not to assume that his so-called support would have been Marshall level.

Edited March 24, 2023 by rollingstoned

[Gambit]

Tim Southee level bowler achieved a top ranking of #2 and was consistently in the top 10 during his career. As an all-rounder, his highest ranking was #1 and was again consistently in the top #5.

 

Bowling

 

 

All Rounder

 

[zen]

3 hours ago, rollingstoned said:

How good he was as a bowler is a matter of debate and subjectivity, certainly as an overall cricketer he is rated as among the finest to play the game across the board. Not just by Indians. Consensus also seems to be that by the time he finished his career he was an ODI ATG if not quite as good in tests. 

Bolded ones are not Kapil's contemporaries, the claim is not being made that he was the best bowler or among the absolute best to ever play the game which narrows that down to only around 10 or so so that doesn't need to be addressed unless one is making a straw man. There being a few better bowlers at that time does not mean by itself that he was not much cop since that seems to be the implication. Thread starter directly comparing Kapil and Southee is why that discussion became relevant. 

 

Regarding support, if the kind of bowler you are claiming was playing for us he ie Kapil would have been the support ergo that bowler would have been the main bowler. Here the claim is that with better support as the main bowler he would have done better which is not an unreasonable claim to make and not to assume that his so-called support would have been Marshall level.

Yeah, as a test bowler, as I said,  he wasn’t top tier when comparing with some of the bowlers who bowled at that time.  Waqar too for e.g. made his debut in 1989. And his career overlapped with Kapil’s. 
 

In Eng in 1986, Kapil wasn’t Ind’s best seamer. In 1986 series v Aus, he went wicketless in a 3 match series. 
 

There were bowlers like McDermott, who have similar overall average, but looked more potent usually. There was a bowler like Alderman, who would create havoc in England. At best, I would put Kapil (and bowlers like Southee, who is not bad too) with them.

 

[vvvslaxman]

4 hours ago, rollingstoned said:

How good he was as a bowler is a matter of debate and subjectivity, certainly as an overall cricketer he is rated as among the finest to play the game across the board. Not just by Indians. Consensus also seems to be that by the time he finished his career he was an ODI ATG if not quite as good in tests. 

Bolded ones are not Kapil's contemporaries, the claim is not being made that he was the best bowler or among the absolute best to ever play the game which narrows that down to only around 10 or so so that doesn't need to be addressed unless one is making a straw man. There being a few better bowlers at that time does not mean by itself that he was not much cop since that seems to be the implication. Thread starter directly comparing Kapil and Southee is why that discussion became relevant. 

 

Regarding support, if the kind of bowler you are claiming was playing for us he ie Kapil would have been the support ergo that bowler would have been the main bowler. Here the claim is that with better support as the main bowler he would have done better which is not an unreasonable claim to make and not to assume that his so-called support would have been Marshall level.

 

Always a world class bowler. Only reason we talk about support is to give a context why his average was 29 instead of below 25.  Otherwise it is an open secret he was a world class bowler. Gulf between West Indies and other teams was massive during that era. Only guy who have done fantastically well  against them especially in the early part of 80s when West Indies was peerless was Kapil dev. Any argument otherwise is pure ignorance. 

[vvvslaxman]

Ashwin is bad, Jadeja is bad, Kapil is bad only. Only in the cukoo world we hear these utter nonsense.

[rollingstoned]

19 minutes ago, zen said:

Yeah, as a test bowler, as I said,  he wasn’t top tier when comparing with some of the bowlers who bowled at that time.  Waqar too for e.g. made his debut in 1989. And his career overlapped with Kapil’s. 
 

In Eng in 1986, Kapil wasn’t Ind’s best seamer. In 1986 series v Aus, he went wicketless in a 3 match series. 
 

There were bowlers like McDermott, who have similar overall average, but looked more potent usually. There was a bowler like Alderman, who would create havoc in England. At best, I would put Kapil (and bowlers like Southee, who is not bad too) with them.

 

Longevity in general should count in favor of and not against some players. It's why Anderson should also now be in that conversation imo. 

[zen]

18 minutes ago, rollingstoned said:

Longevity in general should count in favor of and not against some players. It's why Anderson should also now be in that conversation imo. 

 
Longevity could be due to many factors (not necessarily just talent). As many would say players can have a few years of good cricket in a long career.
 

Players like Hadlee bowled competitively even when nearing their 40s. Imran Khan too played almost close to 40 (came out of retirement iirc). 
 

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by zen

[Majestic]

5 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

As a bowler he was finished in 1984 after the knee surgery. Comparison to Jason as an AR for batting is a major disservice, even for statsguru posters. He had a major impact as a batsman, even in 90s when he could hit 4 6s to save a follow-on against Hemmings or score a 100 in 1992 in SA.  Calling his superior home record due to home umpires is pure trolling. We had home umpires who would be trigger happy to please the whiteman! See the tied test in 1987 as a caseworker. Stop reading scorecards and read contemporary cricket writers to knpw how great a player is. He won a WC on his own for India, FGS. Bade aaye Southee ko compare karne wale.

 

He is a GOAT in fitness. He would have the WC in playing most tests without a break , but for SunnyG dropping him after 1984 Kolkata test against ENg for reckless batting. It is like Pant getting dropped after WTC final reckless batting. He is that big in batting alone as an impact player, not a stat padder like Imran.

 

if you want to know more about cheating home umpires, read about 1985 Aus against Indians or in 1992 in SA. Some old timers can talk about 1976 WI against India

Holder has a 200 in Test cricket with bat. You are saying Kapil was done with bowl by 1984 but he played till 1992 which is 8 years of cricket more. His bowling numbers are pretty average for those 8 years.

 

He probably achieved greatness by 1983 as he had picked close to 250 test wickets at 27, won the World Cup for his nation during that time as a captain which was like a dream. But post 1983, his performance weren't as good as the true greats are defined by.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Majestic

[zen]

1 minute ago, Majestic said:

Holder has a 200 in Test cricket with bat. You are saying Kapil was done with bowl by 1984 but he played till 1992 which is 8 years of cricket more. His bowling numbers are pretty average for those 8 years.

Note Kapil Dev played in tests till 1994. 

 

[waga]

from an outsiders perspective I've literally never heard a non-indian mention kapil dev 

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, waga said:

from an outsiders perspective I've literally never heard a non-indian mention kapil dev 

 

Probably you are living in brazil?