Was India's greatest fast bowler Kapil Dev a Tim Southee level bowler?

[Majestic]

Kapil Dev 

 

M 131, W 434, AVG 29.6

 

Southee

 

M 94, W 367, AVG 29.1

 

I have categorised as fast bowler but they both are medium fast and known for their outswingers.

[zen]

Most of India’s top talents have equivalent or better option in top test playing countries. The players are mostly hyped by local fans as they lack options. Hardly anyone deserves to be in a world AT 11 if chosen from a neutral perspective. 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

Absolutely not. Basic research would tell you that. Back then India lacked support seamers. Gulf between Kapil and second seamer of india was massive that Kapil had to bowl more overs than he was needed to. There was a match against West Indies he bowled 30 overs on the trot picking 9 for 83. When you bowl more overs with no support you end up conceding more runs per wicket than you are required to. He didn't really have Boult or Wagner to help him take load off of him. In Pakistan/Australia/Windies he was impacted by umpiring to boot with. We shouldn't be looking at raw stats.

[vvvslaxman]

West Indies was the top side in the 1980s by some distance

 

Performances against West Indies in the 1980s by bowlers

 

[nevada]

2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Absolutely not. Basic research would tell you that. Back then India lacked support seamers. Gulf between Kapil and second seamer of india was massive that Kapil had to bowl more overs than he was needed to. There was a match against West Indies he bowled 30 overs on the trot picking 9 for 83. When you bowl more overs with no support you end up conceding more runs per wicket than you are required to. He didn't really have Boult or Wagner to help him take load off of him. In Pakistan/Australia/Windies he was impacted by umpiring to boot with. We shouldn't be looking at raw stats.

Yup. He was strike bowler as well as stock bowler, bowling long spells. If Southee bowled 30 over spells, he would have probably broken down and not even played the number of matches he did. For sheer longevity and uninterrupted career alone, Kapil Dev deserves respect. 

[Lord]

Southee plays mostly on green mambas but no one will even acknowledge it

[Trichromatic]

11 minutes ago, Lord said:

Southee plays mostly on green mambas but no one will even acknowledge it

 

Kapil wasn't successful in England.

[Trichromatic]

3 hours ago, zen said:

Most of India’s top talents have equivalent or better option in top test playing countries. The players are mostly hyped by local fans as they lack options. Hardly anyone deserves to be in a world AT 11 if chosen from a neutral perspective. 

 

 

 

Almost every neutral expert includes Gavaskar and Sachin in AT 11. Although I am not surprised by this post considering long history of dissing Indian players on ICF. 

[Number]

He was 1.5 times better. Southee plays a lot of matches on seaming tracks while Kapil played a lot of matches not very helpful for fast bowling. 

Also the value Kapil added as a batsman was immense. He could tear apart any attack on his day. 

[Lord]

7 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Kapil wasn't successful in England.

 

Southee's been bad there too despite playing on similar wickets at home.

[Nikola]

Idk about southee but point that he plays on green tracks. Well Kapil average in Eng is 39.18, In NZ it is 42.13 & SA it is 37.37 so just because he was swing bowler don't assume he would do well in every conditions. I think better comparison would be with richard hadlee cause he too did not have much support and had huge workload throughout his career and i think he was much better test player than kapil.

[AuxiliA]

4 hours ago, zen said:

Most of India’s top talents have equivalent or better option in top test playing countries. The players are mostly hyped by local fans as they lack options. Hardly anyone deserves to be in a world AT 11 if chosen from a neutral perspective. 

 

 

 

 

A fanboi of Chhapri Pandya shouldn't be deriding bonafide legends like Kapil, Tendulkar, Gavaskar, etc. 

[Adamant]

Kapil was better. 

 

Actually his average went down bcoz of his greed to break Hadlee's record. 

Also he had little support, if he had someone like Shami, he would have retired with a much better average and also higher impact. 

[Lord]

15 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Kapil was better. 

 

Actually his average went down bcoz of his greed to break Hadlee's record. 

Also he had little support, if he had someone like Shami, he would have retired with a much better average and also higher impact. 

plus he had to give time to his batting too.

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, Adamant said:

Kapil was better. 

 

Actually his average went down bcoz of his greed to break Hadlee's record. 

Also he had little support, if he had someone like Shami, he would have retired with a much better average and also higher impact. 

I also felt the same but look at his year wise performance in last few years :

 

1991 - 25

1992- 29

1993- 26

1994- 27

 

1990- 47

1989-25

1988- 23

 

His worst years were 1984,1986,1987,1990.

 

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/statistics/players/PlayerYears.asp?PlayerID=0443#bowl

[MultiB48]

79 and 83 were his peak, nearly 150 wkts in those 2 years at 23.

[Gollum]

If you go by raw stats, Ashwin and Jadeja are better than Warne then? Matlab kuch bhi?

[Lord]

13 minutes ago, Gollum said:

If you go by raw stats, Ashwin and Jadeja are better than Warne then? Matlab kuch bhi?

stats matter only when they show Indians as inferior

[vvvslaxman]

3 hours ago, Adamant said:

Kapil was better. 

 

Actually his average went down bcoz of his greed to break Hadlee's record. 

Also he had little support, if he had someone like Shami, he would have retired with a much better average and also higher impact. 

 

It was also a case of Opposition playing him out.  Once you see him off that's it. You have nothing of the same calibre to face against. 

[Trichromatic]

7 hours ago, Lord said:

 

Southee's been bad there too despite playing on similar wickets at home.

 

That's the point. Most players do better in home conditions. Srinath, Umesh Yadav, Shami, Ishant and many other fast bowlers have better records at home and have done little in helpful conditions away. So can't add this logic that Asian pacer did this Asia, so naturally they will be better in other conditions.