Was India's greatest fast bowler Kapil Dev a Tim Southee level bowler?

[zen]

1 minute ago, waga said:

from an outsiders perspective I've literally never heard a non-indian mention kapil dev 

Understandable as there Is nothing much to mention esp. on his bowling. 

Even in his playing days, not many thought he would run through sides or created an excitement that a fast bowler should. 

[coffee_rules]

43 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Holder has a 200 in Test cricket with bat. You are saying Kapil was done with bowl by 1984 but he played till 1992 which is 8 years of cricket more. His bowling numbers are pretty average for those 8 years.

 

He probably achieved greatness by 1983 as he had picked close to 250 test wickets at 27, won the World Cup for his nation during that time as a captain which was like a dream. But post 1983, his performance weren't as good as the true greats are defined by.

He was 24 years old in 1983, nobody drops out that young. He had individual brilliances in bowling even in the second half. Plus given his batting, he was a mainstay till 1992. Probably should have retired after Aus tour. Extended his stay by 2 years. But you can’t compare him to Holder reading scorecards and statsguru. Go by what value he added to the team.

[rollingstoned]

7 hours ago, zen said:

 
Longevity could be due to many factors (not necessarily just talent). As many would say players can have a few years of good cricket in a long career.
 

Players like Hadlee bowled competitively even when nearing their 40s. Imran Khan too played almost close to 40 (came out of retirement iirc). 
 

 

It could be yes, but what it is is something you would know depending on who they play for. It isn't like you have some 35 avg bowler playing for Bangladesh because there is no other option.  Kapil was still playing at a high level when he retired even close to 40. It can't be that for the same criteria the consideration is an asset for someone while a caveat that counts against someone else.

The longevity thing is in relation to Waqar Younis who was not the same bowler anymore after the early 90s. And when you compare the assumption is that it is that of relative peaks that coincide. Else a purple patch is rife for extrapolation depending on the agenda of the assessor. 

Edited March 24, 2023 by rollingstoned

[rollingstoned]

6 hours ago, waga said:

from an outsiders perspective I've literally never heard a non-indian mention kapil dev 

That says more about you than Kapil dev tbh. 

[zen]

16 minutes ago, rollingstoned said:

It could be yes, but what it is is something you would know depending on who they play for. It isn't like you have some 35 avg bowler playing for Bangladesh because there is no other option.  Kapil was still playing at a high level when he retired even close to 40. It can't be that for the same criteria the consideration is an asset for someone while a caveat that counts against someone else.

The longevity thing is in relation to Waqar Younis who was not the same bowler anymore after the early 90s. And when you compare the assumption is that it is that of relative peaks that coincide. Else a purple patch is rife for extrapolation depending on the agenda of the assessee. 

 

Note that Kapil did not retire at 40 (unless involved in age fudging). In tests, he retired in March 1994 so his age would be around 35 years (and people in general feel that he extended his career unnecessarily). 

Edited March 24, 2023 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

8 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

He was 24 years old in 1983, nobody drops out that young. He had individual brilliances in bowling even in the second half. Plus given his batting, he was a mainstay till 1992. Probably should have retired after Aus tour. Extended his stay by 2 years. But you can’t compare him to Holder reading scorecards and statsguru. Go by what value he added to the team.

 

Precisely. That is where people miss context. Match scenario, physical condition (like Kapil played with pain killer injectsions) when he dismissed Australia at the MCG for 83 runs when they were chasing  a meager 143 runs.  Ahmedabad pitch where Kapil bowled 30 overs on the trot to pick up 9 wickets. In Pakistan umpiring was extremely biased. Leg before decisions were very very hard to come by. Kapil dev played triple role. New ball bowler, workload bowler, strike bowler.  

[devla]

In the context of the team he played for and on the pitches he played in, he was the greatest athlete and all rounder India ever produced. If he played in ENA like Hadlee and Botham or had bowling partners like Willis or Lillee, his stats would be way better. 
 

Those that look at stats never saw him bowl live. Yeah he extended his stay. Oh well get over it. 

Edited March 25, 2023 by devla

[Pakistan]

Kapil Paa Jee was very good swing bowler and brutal with bat in hand. Second only to great Khan in great all rounder of 80s but ahead of Botham. Hadlee does not even count as all rounder but he was the best bowler out of four.

[rkt.india]

But he was an all-rounder. Our best fast bowlers are Bumrah and Shami.

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

But he was an all-rounder. Our best fast bowlers are Bumrah and Shami.

Bumrah is not yet there with a sample of 30 tests.

 

But are you agreeing that he is a Tim Southee level bowler or maybe marginally better but can be bracketed in same tier?

Edited March 26, 2023 by Majestic

[zen]

For Kapil to be among the best, we need the following excuses/conditions: 

 

* He should have bowled more in Eng & NZ, (when his record is not that good in swing environments)

* He should have a world class support (when he wasn’t even the best seamer in Eng in 1986 and when he could give rare good performances with such a support)

* He should have bowled with the wind behind him

* He should have had the new ball cleaned by a special towel 

* He should have been made to sleep exactly at 8 pm, while getting frequent massages 

* He should have all the records of his bad performances erased (even forgetting at at one point, it was joked that Kumble, along with Srinath, is India’s fastest bowler) 

* He should not have pursued Hadlee’s record (such a quest for a personal milestone probably did more harm to him than good)

* He should not have been even slightly injured (it is ok if a Marshall bowls with an injury)

* He should not be made to go through motions (as if a cricket game is like taking a jog in the park and a place to avoid injuries to extend the career)

* He should … 

 

After all the conditions are satisfied, his test bowling average of roughly 30 would be dramatically theoretically equivalent to 25 if not 20 in some quarter! 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

If i distinctly remember 1986 series Kapil was outstanding in the series. He took out to top order in the 2nd dig against England triggered a top order collapse. They wimped to a small total which India ended up c h asing with a cameo in the end by kapil (23 in 10 balls) sttled the nerves. He won the man of the match

 

2nd test was at LEeds. Leeds was always juicy pitch. This was extra juicy.  Ball was swinging all over. Madanlal was not originally part of the squad. He was playing county cricket. They drafted him in just for this test.  Dibbly dobbly swing of Binny was always potent in swinging conditions. Pretty much every one was unplayable. Bit like how Arshad Ayub bowled outstandingly but Hirwani ended up with 16 wickets. Vengsarkar preoduced two master class knocks in that pitch. Not a single batsman touched 40 runs on that pitch. Vengsarkar made 61 & 102. 

 

3rd Test..  Kapil dev was injured. Eventually couldn't bowl in the 2nd innings after a few overs.  Didn't bowl as much as he could. Sharma had to make up for it. That was a decent track. Still Kapil struck with new ball in both innings. 

 

This is why blindly reading cricinfo makes one give utterly foolish opinions

[zen]

Bowing record of Indian "pace" bowlers in swing-friendly conditions since 1980s:

 

Eng

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
C Sharma	1986-1986	2	4	102.3	20	300	16	6/58	10/188	18.75	2.92	38.4	2	1
RMH Binny	1986-1986	3	6	87.2	11	251	12	5/40	7/58	20.91	2.87	43.6	1	0
JJ Bumrah	2018-2022	8	15	320.2	75	880	37	5/64	9/110	23.78	2.74	51.9	2	0
HH Pandya	2018-2018	4	6	64.1	7	247	10	5/28	6/50	24.70	3.84	38.5	1	0
BKV Prasad	1996-1996	3	5	142.3	39	375	15	5/76	7/130	25.00	2.63	57.0	1	0
B Kumar	2014-2014	5	7	172.5	45	506	19	6/82	6/103	26.63	2.92	54.5	2	0
Z Khan	2002-2011	8	14	296.5	81	867	31	5/75	9/134	27.96	2.92	57.4	1	0
P Kumar	2011-2011	3	5	158.3	38	443	15	5/106	7/169	29.53	2.79	63.4	1	0
Mohammed Siraj	2021-2022	5	9	153.2	24	594	18	4/32	8/126	33.00	3.87	51.1	0	0
I Sharma	2011-2021	14	22	495.3	98	1632	48	7/74	7/135	34.00	3.29	61.9	2	0
RP Singh	2007-2011	4	7	126.3	27	465	12	5/59	7/117	38.75	3.67	63.2	1	0
J Srinath	1996-1996	3	5	152.1	37	433	11	4/103	5/152	39.36	2.84	83.0	0	0
Mohammed Shami	2014-2022	12	21	402.3	65	1433	34	4/57	6/108	42.14	3.56	71.0	0	0
N Kapil Dev	1982-1990	9	17	389.2	80	1190	27	5/125	8/168	44.07	3.05	86.5	1	0
S Sreesanth	2007-2011	6	10	224.0	41	831	17	3/53	5/133	48.88	3.70	79.0	0	0

 

 

NZ

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
I Sharma	2009-2020	6	11	223.4	41	787	28	6/51	9/162	28.10	3.51	47.9	3	0
Z Khan	2002-2014	7	13	276.5	56	933	33	5/29	7/122	28.27	3.37	50.3	4	0
J Srinath	1994-1999	3	6	178.5	35	520	15	5/95	6/185	34.66	2.90	71.5	1	0
Mohammed Shami	2014-2020	4	7	149.0	23	534	15	4/70	6/219	35.60	3.58	59.6	0	0
N Kapil Dev	1981-1994	7	11	233.5	49	632	15	4/34	7/146	42.13	2.70	93.5	0	0

 

 

 

 

The title "India's greatest fast bowler" is in a way like a mockery of Indian pace bowlers. 

 

 

/thread

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

lol More brainles filters

 

Venkatesh prasad averages more in NZ with bat than Pujara :)  Kind of explains the standard of pujara 

[vvvslaxman]

WTC final happens at the OVal. Should we pick a deadwood from this list?

 

Oval performance by Indians

 

Kapil 55.75 with bat

Deadwood 19.50 with bat

 

Infact Amit  Mishra has better average lol 63.50 at the oval

 

[zen]

Another credit to Kapil is that he made batsmen play like T20s in ODIs by bowling in the slots

 

 

[singhvivek141]

10 hours ago, zen said:

Bowing record of Indian "pace" bowlers in swing-friendly conditions since 1980s:

 

Eng

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
C Sharma	1986-1986	2	4	102.3	20	300	16	6/58	10/188	18.75	2.92	38.4	2	1
RMH Binny	1986-1986	3	6	87.2	11	251	12	5/40	7/58	20.91	2.87	43.6	1	0
JJ Bumrah	2018-2022	8	15	320.2	75	880	37	5/64	9/110	23.78	2.74	51.9	2	0
HH Pandya	2018-2018	4	6	64.1	7	247	10	5/28	6/50	24.70	3.84	38.5	1	0
BKV Prasad	1996-1996	3	5	142.3	39	375	15	5/76	7/130	25.00	2.63	57.0	1	0
B Kumar	2014-2014	5	7	172.5	45	506	19	6/82	6/103	26.63	2.92	54.5	2	0
Z Khan	2002-2011	8	14	296.5	81	867	31	5/75	9/134	27.96	2.92	57.4	1	0
P Kumar	2011-2011	3	5	158.3	38	443	15	5/106	7/169	29.53	2.79	63.4	1	0
Mohammed Siraj	2021-2022	5	9	153.2	24	594	18	4/32	8/126	33.00	3.87	51.1	0	0
I Sharma	2011-2021	14	22	495.3	98	1632	48	7/74	7/135	34.00	3.29	61.9	2	0
RP Singh	2007-2011	4	7	126.3	27	465	12	5/59	7/117	38.75	3.67	63.2	1	0
J Srinath	1996-1996	3	5	152.1	37	433	11	4/103	5/152	39.36	2.84	83.0	0	0
Mohammed Shami	2014-2022	12	21	402.3	65	1433	34	4/57	6/108	42.14	3.56	71.0	0	0
N Kapil Dev	1982-1990	9	17	389.2	80	1190	27	5/125	8/168	44.07	3.05	86.5	1	0
S Sreesanth	2007-2011	6	10	224.0	41	831	17	3/53	5/133	48.88	3.70	79.0	0	0

 

 

NZ

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
I Sharma	2009-2020	6	11	223.4	41	787	28	6/51	9/162	28.10	3.51	47.9	3	0
Z Khan	2002-2014	7	13	276.5	56	933	33	5/29	7/122	28.27	3.37	50.3	4	0
J Srinath	1994-1999	3	6	178.5	35	520	15	5/95	6/185	34.66	2.90	71.5	1	0
Mohammed Shami	2014-2020	4	7	149.0	23	534	15	4/70	6/219	35.60	3.58	59.6	0	0
N Kapil Dev	1981-1994	7	11	233.5	49	632	15	4/34	7/146	42.13	2.70	93.5	0	0

 

 

 

 

The title "India's greatest fast bowler" is in a way like a mockery of Indian pace bowlers. 

 

 

/thread

 

Kapil also has an average of 24 in Australia (51 wickets in 11 matches), and 23 in WI (35 wkts in 9)

In Australian team he has bowled to the likes of Greg Chappell, Allan Border, Mark Taylor, Waugh borthers, David Boon...that's heck of a batting lineup.

Against WI he has bowled to Viv Richards, Desmond Haynes, Gordon Greenidge, Richie Richardson

Australia and WI were probably the best teams in Kapil's era...followed by England and others. So he was able to up his game against the strongest opposition and I think that matters a lot.
Infact his bowling average in 85 tests out of 131 (India + Aus + WI) was less than 26. This is the exact number of matched Hadlee played. These are very good numbers for an allrounder. 

 

Kapil till 1983 end was an exceptional bowler with decent batting ability. Post his knee injury in 1984 his bowling stocks declined while his batting average went up.

Kapil Till 31st Dec 1983 : Batting average 29.5, Bowling average 27.7 (Good stats for a bowling allrounder)
Kapil from 1st Jan 1984 till 31 Dec 1988 : Batting average 36.9, Bowling average 34.65 (became a batting allrounder)
Kapil from 1st Jan 1989 till retirement : Batting average 28.4, Bowling average 30.29 (average stats)

So Kapil's 15 year career, he was good for 10 years in either of the departments...it's only last 5 years where his perfomance was mediocre (which most of fans agree that he stretched his career well past his expiry date).

Edited March 27, 2023 by singhvivek141

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, singhvivek141 said:

Kapil also has an average of 24 in Australia (51 wickets in 11 matches), and 23 in WI (35 wkts in 9)

In Australian team he has bowled to the likes of Greg Chappell, Allan Border, Mark Taylor, Waugh borthers, David Boon...that's heck of a batting lineup.

Against WI he has bowled to Viv Richards, Desmond Haynes, Gordon Greenidge, Richie Richardson

Australia and WI were probably the best teams in Kapil's era...followed by England and others. So he was able to up his game against the strongest opposition and I think that matters a lot.
Infact his average in 85 tests out of 131 (India + Aus + WI) was less than 26. This is the exact number of matched Hadlee played. These are very good numbers for an allrounders. 

 

Kapil till 1983 end was an exceptional bowler with decent batting ability. Post his knee injury in 1984 his bowling stocks declined while his batting average went up.

Kapil Till 31st Dec 1983 : Batting average 29.5, Bowling average 27.7 (Good stats for a bowling allrounder)
Kapil from 1st Jan 1984 till 31 Dec 1988 : Batting average 36.9, Bowling average 34.65 (became a batting allrounder)
Kapil from 1st Jan 1989 till retirement : Batting average 28.4, Bowling average 30.29 (average stats)

So Kapil's 15 year career, he was good for 10 years in either of the departments...it's only last 5 years where his perfomance was mediocre (which most of fans agree that he stretched his career well past his expiry date).

 

Exactly did the best against best side of the era. In NZ he played in 1981 next one was in 1990. IN 1981 first test pitch was typical NZ pitch where Kapil did well. Next two tests were very dry like Indian pitches. Spinners dominated from both sides. Even Hadlee took the back seat in that series. Ravi bot was the highest wicket taker of the series. Then the current Michael bracewell's uncle. This context free analysis based on cricinfo across 40 years is laughable lol

[zen]

59 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Kapil also has an average of 24 in Australia (51 wickets in 11 matches), and 23 in WI (35 wkts in 9)

In Australian team he has bowled to the likes of Greg Chappell, Allan Border, Mark Taylor, Waugh borthers, David Boon...that's heck of a batting lineup.

Against WI he has bowled to Viv Richards, Desmond Haynes, Gordon Greenidge, Richie Richardson

Australia and WI were probably the best teams in Kapil's era...followed by England and others. So he was able to up his game against the strongest opposition and I think that matters a lot.
Infact his bowling average in 85 tests out of 131 (India + Aus + WI) was less than 26. This is the exact number of matched Hadlee played. These are very good numbers for an allrounder. 

 

Kapil till 1983 end was an exceptional bowler with decent batting ability. Post his knee injury in 1984 his bowling stocks declined while his batting average went up.

Kapil Till 31st Dec 1983 : Batting average 29.5, Bowling average 27.7 (Good stats for a bowling allrounder)
Kapil from 1st Jan 1984 till 31 Dec 1988 : Batting average 36.9, Bowling average 34.65 (became a batting allrounder)
Kapil from 1st Jan 1989 till retirement : Batting average 28.4, Bowling average 30.29 (average stats)

So Kapil's 15 year career, he was good for 10 years in either of the departments...it's only last 5 years where his perfomance was mediocre (which most of fans agree that he stretched his career well past his expiry date).

 

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that Kapil was "bad" (The other player mentioned here - Southee isn't bad too). He had his moments (but was also inconsistent and mediocre over a large part of his career). The question here is where do you slot Kapil as a test bowler. And I think he is more or less correctly slotted with bowlers such as McDermott (whose average is similar to Kapil in WI too), Southee, Vaas, Botham, etc. … Let's not forget other retired Indian bowlers like Zak, who was skillful (with reverse too) and bowled in a relatively batting-friendly era. 

 

Additionally, Kapil's record in Aus & WI debunks the " lack of proper support" theory as if he did well there with whatever support he had, he could have done that in other countries too (I think on many occasions, he did not rise up to the challenge despite acceptable support). Second, top-tier bowlers have career averages like (or even better than) what Kapil did in Aus & WI (a select part of his career). 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by zen

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, zen said:

 

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that Kapil was "bad" (The other player mentioned here - Southee isn't bad too). He had his moments (but was also inconsistent and mediocre over a large part of his career). The question here is where do you slot Kapil as a test bowler. And I think he is more or less correctly slotted with bowlers such as McDermott (whose average is similar to Kapil in WI too), Southee, Vaas, Botham, etc. … Let's not forget other retired Indian bowlers like Zak, who was skillful (with reverse too) and bowled in a relatively batting-friendly era. 

 

Additionally, Kapil's record in Aus & WI debunks the " lack of proper support" theory as if he did well there with whatever support he had, he could have done that in other countries too (I think on many occasions, he did not rise up to the challenge despite acceptable support). Second, top-tier bowlers have career averages like (or even better than) what Kapil did in Aus & WI (a select part of his career). 

 

 

 

 

I did a small check on Kapil's performance in NZ

1981
First test...he took 7 wkts vs NZ, Hadlee took 4

Second test...3 day's play impacted by rain. Kapil bowled in only 1 inns and took no wicket, Hadlee got a 5fer

Third test...Seemed like a spin track as John Bracewell took 9 wickets and Shastri took a 5-fer. Kapil and Hadlee both took 1 wkt each.

 

Total 10 wickets for Hadlee...8 for Kapil (understandable as Hadlee was a better bowler, also it was his hometurf).

1990 (after his golden run with ball was over)
First test...Kapil took 3 wickets in first inns, DNB in second as target was single digits. Hadlee bowled twice and took 7 wkts

Second test....rain affected test with almost 2.5 days of no cricket. No Indian pacer got a wicket..Hadlee took 3 while Danny Morrison took 5.

Third Test....Kapil and Hadlee both took 2 wickets...Danny Marrison got a 5fer, Atul Wassan took 4 wickets. Kapil struggled in second inns.

 

1994

Solitary test...Only got 2 wickets...Srinath and Morrison got 4fer.

 

Mostly his stats took a beating due to the 1990 and 1994 series when his bowling declined. He performed well in 1981 when he was younger.

On briefly looking at his stats in England...Kapil was doing well in England till 1982...after that he played a couple of tests in spinning pitches (where likes of Dilip Doshi, Ravi Shastri and Phil Edmonds dominated). Didn't check the matches after that, but looking at these stats we can't say that all 100% of pitches in England and NZ were pace friendly.

 

Also, Bowlers do have off days here and there....and that's where strong support bowlers can help by covering the performance. Kapil's support bowlers were Karsan Ghavri, Madan Lal and Manoj Prabhakar..none of them were what you call a threatening bowler. Hence, bad day or good, Kapil had no choice but to bowl overs.

Edited March 27, 2023 by singhvivek141