Lack of players who bring diverse skillsets is killing our LOI cricket!

[Nikhil_cric]

Yesterday's lineup was appalling to watch. 6 right handers one after the other to face Starc's inswing.  Is it any wonder we fail?

 

Forget about constructing a World Cup winning template using the best professionals in analytics. An ideal template would actually be quite close to the 2011 Semifinal XI

 

1. SRT - RHB

2. Sehwag - RHB

3. GG - LHB

4. Kohli - RHB

5. Yuvraj - LHB (spins it away)

6. Dhoni - keeper(RHB)

7. Raina - LHB (6th bowler)

8. Bhajan ( spins it in)

9. Munaf (tall, hit the deck right arm seamer)

10. Nehra (Left arm quick)

11. Zak (left arm quick)

 

Just look at the variety and angles of attack they brought. 

India now feels that there should be a genuine 5th bowler who can strike the ball instead of a genuine #7 bat like Raina and Hardik fills that role but can they really compromise batting depth by including Jadeja? 

 

Are there personnel in List A we can use to follow a similar template? Discuss 

 

 

[Stan AF]

OP, SRT has 154 ODI wickets as well.

[Nikhil_cric]

3 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

OP, SRT has 154 ODI wickets as well.

Yeah I know but by the time of the 2011 World Cup, he wasn't bowling much and his bowling had regressed 

[AuxiliA]

We badly need a top order batsman who could bowl. Sachin and Yuvi were too OP in their bowling primes. Allowed us to play with 7 pure batsmen.

 

Right now that's not possible with the current lineup. The top order batsmen can barely field let alone bowl. 

 

 

 

 

[putrevus]

I think someone is forgetting that rules have been changed from 2011.Guy like Yuvraj would not complete 3 overs with current field restrictions.

[Majestic]

6 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I think someone is forgetting that rules have been changed from 2011.Guy like Yuvraj would not complete 3 overs with current field restrictions.

Raina also..

 

2011- yuvi, Raina

2023- Pandya, Jadeja

 

Which is better for 5th bowler?

Edited March 20, 2023 by Majestic

[putrevus]

10 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Raina also..

 

2011- yuvi, Raina

2023- Pandya, Jadeja

 

Which is better for 5th bowler?

Who has it, let me get your thought first.

[Nikhil_cric]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

I think someone is forgetting that rules have been changed from 2011.Guy like Yuvraj would not complete 3 overs with current field restrictions.

So how does that matter when I have already made allowance for 4 bowlers + Hardik? Back then , we played 7 batsmen . Right now  what I'm asking for is not to compromise for batting strength upto 6 atleast. 

[vvvslaxman]

Kedar bowled between 2018 and 2020..  H 19 innings bowled 10 wickets  5.32 ER which is pretty much the same as what others could do.    Markram, Maxwell. in ODIs bowling filler overs is not that hard.  Let us not forget  Livingstone in a T20 semi final on a flat road got away with 3 overs of 20 runs against India. We do not have batsmen who can bowl. That's the thing. 

Edited March 20, 2023 by vvvslaxman

[Nikhil_cric]

7 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Kedar bowled between 2018 and 2020..  H 19 innings bowled 10 wickets  5.32 ER which is pretty much the same as what others could do.    Markram, Maxwell. in ODIs bowling filler overs is not that hard.  Let us not forget  Livingstone in a T20 semi final on a flat road got away with 3 overs of 20 runs against India. We do not have bowlers who can bowl. That's the thing. 

Markram, Maxwell type batsmen who can bowl 3-4 overs atleast are exactly what I'm talking about.  They are proper impact batsmen and give their sides balance. It's better to go that way than play Hardik AND Jadeja at 6 and 7. 

[vvvslaxman]

Nitish Rana has played one ODI. 3 overs 10 runs 0 wickets. In the same match Hardik Pandya 5-0-43-1.  Since Pandya was going for runs, Rana had to chip in.

[vvvslaxman]

7 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Markram, Maxwell type batsmen who can bowl 3-4 overs atleast are exactly what I'm talking about.  They are proper impact batsmen and give their sides balance. It's better to go that way than play Hardik AND Jadeja at 6 and 7. 

 

where part timers will be useful is when the nature of the pitch suddenly favors one type of bowlers like in 1996 world cup semi final. SL had a batter of part time spinners that allowed SL to sustain the pressure. Similarly in the first ODI upon learning that conditiosn favored seamers Smith could mostly use seamers as he has 3 seamin all rouners. In case ball started turning he could have gone with Maxwell. That flexibility is lacking depending on conditions. With current Indian set up, if we go with 3 spinners we just hope that it is helping only spinners. Same way if we go with 3 seamers we just hope it helps seamers. If pitch nature changes we don't have to anyone to fall back on. On a turning wicket Maxwell > Stoinis. On a seaming wicket Stoinis > Maxwell.

Edited March 20, 2023 by vvvslaxman

[express bowling]

Consistency and ability to deliver impact performances are the 2 key factors that make impact players.

 

In the last few years, most of our top batsmen have become very very inconsistent. And the frequency of impact knocks is pretty low too. 

 

And our bowling quality has deteriorated too in the last 2 years. 

 

Lack of diverse skillsets is not the main reason for our failures, especially in crunch games. 

 

We need batsmen who can score runs snd bowlers who can take wickets in the more important games. 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by express bowling

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

Consistency and ability to deliver impact performances are the 2 key factors make impact players.

 

In the last few years, most of our top batsmen have become very very inconsistent. And the frequency of impact knocks is pretty low too. 

 

And our bowling quality has deteriorated too in the last 2 years. 

 

Lack of diverse skillsets is not the main reason for our failures, especially in crunch games. 

 

We need batsmen who can score runs snd bowlers who can take wickets in the more important games. 

 

 

 

Finishing skills of current lot is one of the worst.  Pandya early in his career did finish a few matches. In current form he is another tuktuker.

[singhvivek141]

Another thing which we're missing in our cricket is incapability to counter left arm swing.

From the time we had a right hand dominant batting order, how many times left arm pacers have blown us away...Amir, Shaheen, Boult, Starc, Junaid...there are numerous examples. Inspite of that, after Dhawan we have rarely played a stable left handed batter at the top. Ishan Kishan is the only one who played sporadically but he has weakness against any kind of movement so he's not that much of an upgrade.

Kohli Rohit KL's weakness against left arm swing means we effectively have 3 duds in the top order who won't be able to do anything under bowling favourable conditions. They need flatter tracks to survive the late movement and then only they will be able to contribute...with such a persistent "?" mark how can we expect our LOI team to perform in all conditions...add to that the pressure of knock out games and we're a toast.

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, singhvivek141 said:

Another thing which we're missing in our cricket is incapability to counter left arm swing.

From the time we had a right hand dominant batting order, how many times left arm pacers have blown us away...Amir, Shaheen, Boult, Starc, Junaid...there are numerous examples. Inspite of that, after Dhawan we have rarely played a stable left handed batter at the top. Ishan Kishan is the only one who played sporadically but he has weakness against any kind of movement so he's not that much of an upgrade.

Kohli Rohit KL's weakness against left arm swing means we effectively have 3 duds in the top order who won't be able to do anything under bowling favourable conditions. They need flatter tracks to survive the late movement and then only they will be able to contribute...with such a persistent "?" mark how can we expect our LOI team to perform in all conditions...add to that the pressure of knock out games and we're a toast.

 

 

 

Gill is alright comparatively. So far no prodigious weakness against that ball. Mostly because he plays straight. He can also play the same ball on backfoot.

[singhvivek141]

15 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Finishing skills of current lot is one of the worst.  Pandya early in his career did finish a few matches. In current form he is another tuktuker.

Teams have realized Pandya's weakness...and he has no means to counter it.

[singhvivek141]

23 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Consistency and ability to deliver impact performances are the 2 key factors make impact players.

 

In the last few years, most of our top batsmen have become very very inconsistent. And the frequency of impact knocks is pretty low too. 

 

And our bowling quality has deteriorated too in the last 2 years. 

 

Lack of diverse skillsets is not the main reason for our failures, especially in crunch games. 

 

We need batsmen who can score runs snd bowlers who can take wickets in the more important games. 

 

 

It all because of our rigidness to play the "senior" bowlers in all situation and conditions, only to include the younger bowlers when there is no other option.
Our bowling attack from 2016-17 is revolving around Shami, Umesh, Ishant, BK, Bumrah...Siraj was the only added when BK failed to perform.
Now Ishant is gone as well and we have an even smaller pool of Shami, Umesh, Siraj & Bumrah  (2 of them in mid 30's)....couple of injuries and then we're looking towards Shardul, Unadkut to bail as out.

Edited March 20, 2023 by singhvivek141

[Sooda]

46 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

It all because of our rigidness to play the "senior" bowlers in all situation and conditions, only to include the younger bowlers when there is no other option.
Our bowling attack from 2016-17 is revolving around Shami, Umesh, Ishant, BK, Bumrah...Siraj was the only added when BK failed to perform.
Now Ishant is gone as well and we have an even smaller pool of Shami, Umesh, Siraj & Bumrah  (2 of them in mid 30's)....couple of injuries and then we're looking towards Shardul, Unadkut to bail as out.

There have been times over the years when this could have been done, like in/vs Bangladesh but I dont think the selectors can be blamed entirely for this, there is no one else atm: the younger bowlers with any potential are injured- Prasidh, Sen, Dayal... all of these guys made it to LOI squads at least. 

People here clamour for Umran in tests but he needs to play some FC cricket first, he only has a handful of matches. To the selectors credit they did fast track him into the A team on the back of IPL, likewise Kartik Tyagi who ICFers love... only played 2 FC matches one of which is for India A vs Australia

[putrevus]

2 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

So how does that matter when I have already made allowance for 4 bowlers + Hardik? Back then , we played 7 batsmen . Right now  what I'm asking for is not to compromise for batting strength upto 6 atleast. 

You allowance will not work now.

 

It is stupidity to go with just five bowlers for a match these days.You need 6 bowlers for sure.Pandya does not bowl his 10 overs every match.So you need to account for it.

 

Back then you could play 7 batsmen.Now you cannot play more than 4 batsmen plus WK .

 

If you closely look at 2011 team again it was 4 batsmen plus Wk plus 2 allrounders (Yuvraj and Raina).

 

Bowlers did their job that is why India won, it is not like with 7 batsmen they outbatted every other team then.
 

Batsmen and allrounders have to do the job of scoring runs even now.

 

2019 no one talks about Dhawan's injury but that was one of major factor for India not winning it all.

Edited March 20, 2023 by putrevus