I fail to understand exclusion of Ashwin: Sachin Tendulkar

[vvvslaxman]

17 minutes ago, Vijy said:

need to start a thread criticizing inclusion of Gill in place of jaiswal, or something random like that. we can hear about how jaiswal would have made a 200 and taken ind to victory

 

You can pretty much say about anyone. Bumrah couldn't have done anything. Pant couldn't have done anything. That is not the point here. Was it the best choice? That is the point here. Otherwise we shouldn't question anyone's selection including INdian batsmen. We should accept the fate and move on. Why are we questioning the selection of our top order?  What is the guarantee new faces will click? So let us continue with the same team until they retire.

[vvvslaxman]

11 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Thakur doesn't come into the team team as a third seamer overseas. That's it. People are too thick to understand it. Umesh was bad is secondary and is a selection blunder. 

 

Umesh was picked for just one test last time. Thakur played 3 tests in the 5 test series against England.

[rkt.india]

40 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Don't forget Sarfaraz, who would have scored a 100 too ... so basically, Jaiswal would have done a Head and Sarfaraz would have done a Smith. Harshit Rana would have been better than Boland 

 

(Note that Sarfaraz is said to be relatively weak against swing)

 

 

Here is how the process looks: 

 

a) Look at the scorecard (hindsight is 20/20) and work backward to figure out who did well and who did not 

b) Identify players on the bench 

c) Think about your favorite players as well

d) Replace those who failed with the new players 

e) Claim India would have won 

Sarfaraz is one of the best against swing. He has been one of the most compact young we have. Even in u19 wc on seaming pitches where pant, Kishan struggled, he had looked most at ease batting at 4. He did well on A tour to SA as well. 

[rkt.india]

18 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Umesh was picked for just one test last time. Thakur played 3 tests in the 5 test series against England.

Shardul played at 4th seamer, not third. We had Bumrah so Umesh didn't come into picture. Shardul comes in as seam alrounder and fourth seamer. In a three seamer attack, he does not play if they play two spinners like WTC last time in 2011. We played three seamers and two spinners. Shardul didn't play. Shardul won't play when we play two spinners in SENA.

[zen]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

Sarfaraz is one of the best against swing. He has been one of the most compact young we have. Even in u19 wc on seaming pitches where pant, Kishan struggled, he had looked most at ease batting at 4. He did well on A tour to SA as well. 

 

Ok, I have only seen him in IPL (where he did not look too promising but can give him the benefit of the doubt) but if my memories serve me right heard about his struggles against swing (unless I confused that with some different player). 

[vvvslaxman]

9 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Shardul played at 4th seamer, not third. We had Bumrah so Umesh didn't come into picture. Shardul comes in as seam alrounder and fourth seamer. In a three seamer attack, he does not play if they play two spinners like WTC last time in 2011. We played three seamers and two spinners. Shardul didn't play. Shardul won't play when we play two spinners in SENA.

 

There is no real difference between them in England. Umesh despite having loads of experience never lived up to his hype. Credit to him for doing well with SG ball in India. But outside India he was always average apart from occasional spells. He is another guy who never took his game to next level. At this age of 36 he shouldn't even be part of the squad let alone playing XI. 

[sensible-indian]

7 hours ago, Vijy said:

All I can is -- wow. suddenly Ashwin has become murali, warne, bill o'reilly, laker, etc rolled into one, who would turn a 200+ run loss into a victory. Even with better bowling, our batting would have failed to score even 200 in 4th innings if that was the reduced target; the fact that they exceeded 200 was mostly down to the relative lack of pressure in chasing nearly 450 (i.e., it was a foregone cause). Top 5 failure, as much as (if not more than) bowling issues, was the reason for the loss.

If you look at final margin of defeat and decide there is no way a player can change the result disregarding the situation, opponent, pitch and context....then sure nothing will change your mind.

 

The tragedy is that Ashwin didn't even need to perform like a Murali or Warne to see a change in result.

 

He didn't even need a 5fer or 6 fer or even a 4fer to shift the game completely.

 

That's why this is called common sense selection.

 

Small hinges swing big doors.

That type of situation here.

 

Data is clear but since it doesn't align with your personal opinions and preconcieved notions, you are refusing to see what's clearly in front of your eyes.

The team management did too. And today they are bitterly regretting it.

[sensible-indian]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Thakur doesn't come into the team team as a third seamer overseas. That's it. People are too thick to understand it. Umesh was bad is secondary and is a selection blunder. 

He can.

 

Just like he did in Gabba.

 

Just cos you repeat it a 1000 times doesn't change it bhai.

 

It's you who isn't seeing it clearly cos you went too far in with the 4 pacer template concept so this doesn't fit inside a neat box for you.

Edited June 13, 2023 by sensible-indian

[sensible-indian]

6 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Against this set of batsmen  (one that played in the final)  Indian bowlers performances. Let us see

 

Batter: Steven Smith  Travis Head  Marnus Labuschagne  David Warner  Cameron Green  Usman Khawaja  Alex Carey  Mitchell Starc  

 

Ashwin 43 dsimissals 48.4 strike 29.2 avge
Jadeja 28 dismissals 44.3 strike rate 29.4 avge
Siraj  13 dismissals 50.6 strike rate 36.5 avge
Shami  15 dismissals 55.0 strike rate 46.4 avge
Umesh  16 dismissals 70.2 strike rate 51.4 avge
Thakur  3 dismissals 58.5 strike rate 61.7 avge

 

  Ashwin vs

 

Warner 11 dismissals 17 matches

Smith   8 dismissals 16 matches ( 2 ducks)

Head   3 dismissals 6 matches

Labu  3 dismissals 7 matches

 

All the cricketers who made this remarks are not idiots

As I said, at this point, denial is simply a refusal to see reality.

 

Ashwin may or may not have won India the match..but it's amply clear, the chances of our victory would have gone up DRAMATICALLY.

 

Not cos he is a Murali but due to opponent and situation.

 

 

[sensible-indian]

14 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

He can.

 

Just like he did in Gabba.

 

Just cos you repeat it a 1000 times doesn't change it bhai.

 

It's you who isn't seeing it clearly cos you went too far in with the 4 pacer template concept so this doesn't fit inside a neat box for you.

@rkt.india Ok I made a mistake.

 

He was the 4th pacer in Gabba behind Navdeep Saini who barely did anything.

 

His performances in Aus and Eng make him perfectly fine for being the 3rd bowler.

 

But since you don't feel comfortable with him being the 3rd, you would rather have Saini or Umesh or any other pacer (who is in form) ahead of Ashwin regardless of the opponent or pitch situation in SENA.

 

It fits in nicely in a box.

Edited June 13, 2023 by sensible-indian

[Chakdephatte]

12 hours ago, zen said:

 

I can see why he did not like to captain much. 

 

 

Azhar had horrible record as a captain when he was removed. Then Sachin came and returned similar performance with the same team. He was forcefully removed and the same Azharuddin was reinstated.

 

A lot happened in that fixing era. Can't judge him there.

 

12 hours ago, zen said:

 

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
NM Lyon (AUS)	2011-2023	87	164	3543.4	726	10310	326	7/152	12/286	31.62	2.90	65.2	11	2
KA Maharaj (SA)	2016-2023	41	68	1183.0	225	3729	117	7/32	9/97	31.87	3.15	60.6	7	0
RA Jadeja (IND)	2013-2023	20	35	725.5	135	1936	52	6/138	7/258	37.23	2.66	83.7	1	0
MJ Leach (ENG)	2018-2023	20	31	614.1	124	1974	52	5/66	10/166	37.96	3.21	70.8	3	1
MM Ali (ENG)	2014-2021	45	77	1267.0	185	4601	119	6/53	10/112	38.66	3.63	63.8	4	1
GP Swann (ENG)	2012-2013	15	27	652.3	125	2056	53	6/90	10/132	38.79	3.15	73.8	3	1
R Ashwin (IND)	2011-2022	24	42	972.3	165	2754	70	4/55	7/121	39.34	2.83	83.3	0	0

 

 

 

You have eyes. See his record is similar to everyone except Lyon and Maharaj. Among Asian spinners, he is second to Jadeja. You picked just six entries to make him look bad but that didn't work. 1 point difference in average hardly makes a difference.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Chakdephatte

[Chakdephatte]

12 hours ago, zen said:

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
NM Lyon (AUS)	2011-2023	87	164	3543.4	726	10310	326	7/152	12/286	31.62	2.90	65.2	11	2
KA Maharaj (SA)	2016-2023	41	68	1183.0	225	3729	117	7/32	9/97	31.87	3.15	60.6	7	0
RA Jadeja (IND)	2013-2023	20	35	725.5	135	1936	52	6/138	7/258	37.23	2.66	83.7	1	0
MJ Leach (ENG)	2018-2023	20	31	614.1	124	1974	52	5/66	10/166	37.96	3.21	70.8	3	1
MM Ali (ENG)	2014-2021	45	77	1267.0	185	4601	119	6/53	10/112	38.66	3.63	63.8	4	1
GP Swann (ENG)	2012-2013	15	27	652.3	125	2056	53	6/90	10/132	38.79	3.15	73.8	3	1
R Ashwin (IND)	2011-2022	24	42	972.3	165	2754	70	4/55	7/121	39.34	2.83	83.3	0	0

 

 

 

How does embed work?

[rollingstoned]

2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

There is no real difference between them in England. Umesh despite having loads of experience never lived up to his hype. Credit to him for doing well with SG ball in India. But outside India he was always average apart from occasional spells. He is another guy who never took his game to next level. At this age of 36 he shouldn't even be part of the squad let alone playing XI. 

Only reason Umesh played is due to 'experience' and that match where he took 6 wickets in England which helped pad his stats there. They did not pay regard to whether or not he is the same bowler anymore and how he has gone recently abroad in general. They could have got Vijay to open for this match and said he has good stats in England and that would have been a similar travesty. But considering the formula that the TM uses to pick it's team it's pointless to complain that Thakur was not seen as a viable 3rd seamer instead of Umesh or Unadkut, that wasn't their biggest *up in this match to harp on it that much. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by rollingstoned

[zen]

5 hours ago, Chakdephatte said:

 

Azhar had horrible record as a captain when he was removed. Then Sachin came and returned similar performance with the same team. He was forcefully removed and the same Azharuddin was reinstated.

 

A lot happened in that fixing era. Can't judge him there.

 

 

You have eyes. See his record is similar to everyone except Lyon and Maharaj. Among Asian spinners, he is second to Jadeja. You picked just six entries to make him look bad but that didn't work. 1 point difference in average hardly makes a difference.

People who understand have understood what it means/implies. 

 

[Chakdephatte]

1 hour ago, zen said:

People who understand have understood what it means/implies. 

 

 

 

Ask those people to explain it to you 

[Vijy]

8 hours ago, Chakdephatte said:

 

Azhar had horrible record as a captain when he was removed. Then Sachin came and returned similar performance with the same team. He was forcefully removed and the same Azharuddin was reinstated.

 

A lot happened in that fixing era. Can't judge him there.

 

 

You have eyes. See his record is similar to everyone except Lyon and Maharaj. Among Asian spinners, he is second to Jadeja. You picked just six entries to make him look bad but that didn't work. 1 point difference in average hardly makes a difference.

it is, however, much lower than both of them. When I think of Ashwin, his penchant for talking too much and taking too few wickets in SA comes to mind.

 

It is possible to be a fan while still being critical -- applies to Ashwin, SRT, dravid, kohli, srinath, bumrah, and everyone else. likewise for players of other countries

Edited June 13, 2023 by Vijy

[maniac]

As @Khota bhai has said allrounders do  not exist. 3 seamers are enough in bowling friendly conditions. You don’t play 4 seamers unless you have a Jacques Kallis as your 4th seamer or even Shane Watson.

maybe even extreme Nzl conditons make sense but that’s equal to a minefield in Nagpur, Delhi, Chennai etc.

2 spinners are a must in any condition. Unfortunately we do not have a part timer. Even for England they play Leach but they have Root to bowl some overs. Australia some times use Head, Labuschagne along with Lyon, Smith doesn’t bowl anymore. SA have Markram to roll his arm if required along with Shamsi/Maharaj, Pakistan always have 6-7 bowling options.

 

Thakur’s batting is a luxury. The case can be made he is a better bowler than Umesh in these conditons and picked as a 3rd seamer but Ashwin was a no brainer.

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by maniac

[Khota]

21 minutes ago, maniac said:

As @Khota bhai has said allrounders do  not exist. 3 seamers are enough in bowling friendly conditions. You don’t play 4 seamers unless you have a Jacques Kallis as your 4th seamer or even Shane Watson.

maybe even extreme Nzl conditons make sense but that’s equal to a minefield in Nagpur, Delhi, Chennai etc.

2 spinners are a must in any condition. Unfortunately we do not have a part timer. Even for England they play Leach but they have Root to bowl some overs. Australia some times use Head, Labuschagne along with Lyon, Smith doesn’t bowl anymore. SA have Markram to roll his arm if required along with Shamsi/Maharaj, Pakistan always have 6-7 bowling options.

 

Thakur’s batting is a luxury. The case can be made he is a better bowler than Umesh in these conditons and picked as a 3rd seamer but Ashwin was a no brainer.

 

Ashwin should have played. But the game was lost by Dravid/Sharma by saying we are too timid to bat first. It was the dumb **** batting order which caused the pain.

[rkt.india]

11 hours ago, maniac said:

As @Khota bhai has said allrounders do  not exist. 3 seamers are enough in bowling friendly conditions. You don’t play 4 seamers unless you have a Jacques Kallis as your 4th seamer or even Shane Watson.

maybe even extreme Nzl conditons make sense but that’s equal to a minefield in Nagpur, Delhi, Chennai etc.

2 spinners are a must in any condition. Unfortunately we do not have a part timer. Even for England they play Leach but they have Root to bowl some overs. Australia some times use Head, Labuschagne along with Lyon, Smith doesn’t bowl anymore. SA have Markram to roll his arm if required along with Shamsi/Maharaj, Pakistan always have 6-7 bowling options.

 

Thakur’s batting is a luxury. The case can be made he is a better bowler than Umesh in these conditons and picked as a 3rd seamer but Ashwin was a no brainer.

 

you post is ignorant of the fact that its the fast bowlers that will win us matches in SENA no matter how many spinners you play. you can play 5 spinners as you deem fit. playing two spinners is of no use. it is the 4 seamer strategy that has started to yield results for us overseas. Otherwise in all those years we used to play two spinners. At times, we even only played two seamers with two spinners. The quickly we understand it the better it is. Second spinner is a luxury we cannot afford in these conditions.  Ashwin despite playing 24 tests in Sena has 0 fifer and averages 41. Not all seamers may not click in a match but that extra 4th seamer provides us that option that if in case a seamer has an off day, that 4th seamer can make an impact and the captain wont feel handicap.  identify and play better seamers. just because Umesh Yadav failed as his selection was a bad decision from the start does not mean we let go of our strategy of playing 4 seamers in SENA.   

[rkt.india]

10 hours ago, Khota said:

Ashwin should have played. But the game was lost by Dravid/Sharma by saying we are too timid to bat first. It was the dumb **** batting order which caused the pain.

We did bat first in last WTC. what was the result? it is better to except that we are not good enough and not the best test team currently. we are not ready enough to win a one-off test in SENA conditions.