Lyon, the best spinner of his generation!

[zen]

The thread is on following the success of Lyon, the best spinner of his generation!  ... It is not about X v Y. Aswhin, who is being discussed here is a mostly conditions-dependent bowler, wasn't even played in the WTC final despite many left-handers in the Aus team so that sums up his position  ... While Lyon picked up 5 wickets in the game, bowling to a team with just one left-hander in Jadeja, to help Aus pick up the WTC title. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

and Ashwin outbowled him even in Aus in 2018-19 and 2020-21

 

Lyon is over-rated in this forum because they have biased perception against our own bowler who has actually won/saved matches for India bot with bat and ball. India won 4 test series back to back against Australia. Lyon played in each one of them. What did he do? 

[zen]

47 minutes ago, Bigg Brother said:

"Stack up wickets"? Do wickets come that easily that you can stack them up? Actually guaranteed spot sometimes work against him and that's why this high average. Comparison with Jadeja is baffling, he isn't AR,Jaddu is. 

 

 

Some folks tend to rate bowlers of other teams as if they mostly rely on conditions. In SENA, Indian spinners are usually played if the conditions favor them (and of course in India on tailored wickets). So their SENA stats are even worse as they fail to account for conditions as much as they should like at Rose Bowl, where Moeen outbowled Ashwin - Scorecard

 

In 2018 Perth, India did not even think it had a worthy spinner who could be played on a pitch that was relatively un-spinfriendly. Then at Sydney, it played two spinners for e.g., 

 

Btw, at Perth 2018, Lyon was the man of the match. He picked up 8 wickets where India did not even play a specialist spinner - Scorecard

[sandeep]

OP is trolling.  and has a wellknown fetish for trumpeting "hatke" opinions.  That is causing a massive blindspot that leads him to overlook Ashwin's greatness.   Posterboy for "I'm not like those other Indians" mob.  Its a wellknown affliction ;P

[rollingstoned]

2 hours ago, Vijy said:

Just to add a random comment, I find it surprising just how many good spinners Eng had even in post WW2 era. Laker, Lock, Wardle, Swann, underwood; even the 2nd rung bowlers like titmus, leach, panesar, etc. were quite solid

It isn't surprising. for English conditions the spinner does have quite an important role to play - especially by the time the 4th innings comes around - but he has to be able to contribute with the bat generally. 

[zen]

47 minutes ago, sandeep said:

That is causing a massive blindspot that leads him to overlook Ashwin's greatness. 

 

I guess, if a player is not rated, it must be due to some bias (like Lyon being written against by some folks here in the comfort of other Indians  )...  Btw, Ashwin's greatness is such that it blinded spotted the TM to bench him (while Lyon has picked up a 4-er in each inning in his last 3 innings in Eng)    

 

(PS won't bother w/ unrelated ad hominem stuff ). 

Edited June 19, 2023 by zen

[Vijy]

8 minutes ago, rollingstoned said:

It isn't surprising. for English conditions the spinner does have quite an important role to play - especially by the time the 4th innings comes around - but he has to be able to contribute with the bat generally. 

the ones I mentioned did pretty well with only ball, and were not ARs (barring swann to some extent and titmus)

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Underwood was more a specialist on sticky wicket. Once we started covering the pitch it became slightly difficult.  Also spinners were allowed to bowl the way theyw anted to back in the days.  INdia had two first class spinners who just could not break into national side because of spin quartet.  Padmakr Shivalkar and Rajinder Singh Goel.  

 

Shivalkar 124 matchces 589 wickets 19.69 avge 42 wicket haul.

Goes 157 matches 750 wickets 18.58 avge 59 wicket haul

 

both goel and shivalkar were better than venkat. having seen both, I will even go so far as to say that they were better than bedi - one on helpful tracks (shiv) and one on flat tracks (goel)

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Best off spinner in contemporary cricket - without a doubt. 

That Murphy kid is also very promising.  Loved the way he mastered that round the wicket angle so early in his career. 

yes, murphy is better than lyon at the same age

[sandeep]

2 hours ago, zen said:

 

I guess, if a player is not rated, it must be due to some bias (like Lyon being written against by some folks here in the comfort of other Indians  )...  Btw, Ashwin's greatness is such that it blinded spotted the TM to bench him (while Lyon has picked up a 4-er in each inning in his last 3 innings in Eng)    

 

(PS won't bother w/ unrelated ad hominem stuff ). 

 

Lyon has the luxury of getting every game that he's fit for.  Ashwin has to compete against Jadeja, not just for opportunities to play, but for opportunities to take wickets as well.   We've been through this 'comparison' umpteen times.  When you compare the 2 head to head in similar situations, its not even close.  Ashwin has a wider repertoire, and is better against more types of batsmen.  That's not to say Lyon isn't good.  But to claim that Lyon is 'GOAT', while running down Ashwin, is simply inaccurate and ignorant.  When someone with your ability to understand and write about cricket repeatedly does it, it isn't 'ad hominem' to call out the obvious bias.  

[zen]

58 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

Lyon has the luxury of getting every game that he's fit for.  Ashwin has to compete against Jadeja, not just for opportunities to play, but for opportunities to take wickets as well.   We've been through this 'comparison' umpteen times.  When you compare the 2 head to head in similar situations, its not even close.  Ashwin has a wider repertoire, and is better against more types of batsmen.  That's not to say Lyon isn't good.  But to claim that Lyon is 'GOAT', while running down Ashwin, is simply inaccurate and ignorant.  When someone with your ability to understand and write about cricket repeatedly does it, it isn't 'ad hominem' to call out the obvious bias.  

 

First, this is not a Lyon v Ashwin discussion (it has been turned into one by desperate Ashwin fanboys). This is to  Lyon as the best spinner of his generation. 

 

Second, no one has claimed him to be GOAT (it is his nickname). I only rate Warne and Murali as GOAT spinners. 

 

Third, Ashwin is one of the least successful spinners in SENA. Many times, these spinners are played on helpful conditions so their stats are even worse for failing to make better use of the conditions (At Rose Bowl for e.g., Moeen outbowled him; At Perth 2018, India did not even play any specialist spinner due to conditions but where Lyon was the MOM, and so on. A player is not judged based on his record on tailored pitches at home). 

 

Fourth, every bowler competes with other bowlers in their team (unless you are under the impression that pacers compete with pacers and spinners with spinners. If Ashwin is the lone spinner, he would compete with the pacers for wickets. Similarly, Lyon, who usually does not even play in tailored spin-friendly conditions). Conditions can be the same only if both play for the same team, bowling in the same conditions, against the same set of batsmen. In lieu of that (a common situation when looking at players who do not play for the same team and even in eras), people would go with what's on the table (not fables created by some Indians to cater to other such Indians). If your point is that Ashwin hasn't played enough in SENA since his debut in 2011, the issue is with Ashwin not being able to place himself as a threat in most conditions, not with anyone else. For many, there is enough sample size to see what he is made up of (and when he is played in relatively spin-friendly conditions, as mentioned before played at the Rose Bowl in 2018 but not at Perth in the same year)! No one needs to go out of his way to judge Ashwin and waste time on the excuses for his nonperformances when he has been playing since 2011. 

 

 

PS 

 

Quote

When someone with your ability to understand and write about cricket repeatedly does it, it isn't 'ad hominem' to call out the obvious bias. 

 

Buddy, praising Lyon should NOT be a concern for any cricket fan!  ... IIRC, you started a thread called "Drop Jadeja for Ashwin" or something like that! So maybe you are more invested in Ashwin (I don't need to be). 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

Clubbing 6 matches in SA over a period of 11 years (not to mention the number of drops of his bowling in one of the series in SA and in another series, 98% of the wickets fell to seamers)  with matches in other parts of SENA  where he missed 70% of the matches just to prove a point is ridiculously stupid and utterly biased. Despite the @sandeep pointed out the obvious flaw in the analysis it fell on deaf ears. 

[rkt.india]

13 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Australian pitchecs home pitches for Lyon lol What kind of a dumbass filter is this. Entire match he got freebie wickets by bowling negative line.

but they dont assist spinners.

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, rkt.india said:

but they dont assist spinners.

You bowl on the same pitch so long against various opposition as a support spinner with seamers supporting you. You are bound to have better record. India plays only against Australia there. So home ground is home ground. 

[waga]

Ashwin is clearly better but Lyons average of ridiculously good for Australia. Its not spin friendly AND there's 1 spinner the whole time the whole series regardless of conditions who also has to bowl the holding donkey overs in flat pitches to protect the fast bowlers.

Lyon and second half of his career Ashwin are the only spinners in over a decade to not be chewed up and spat out, its where they go to die. 

[Stan AF]

Decent to good level spinner.

 

Idiot ruined the 3rd test at headingley in 2019. Couldn't gather the ball properly and remove the bails. How hard is that?

 

Even as an non-aussie that was too much to bear. Could have won the series then and there.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Stan AF

[Stan AF]

At some point in time, ICF moderators should take a stock and examine how much lies and abuses is spread on their own forum against India's players.

 

I'd have expelled this serial liar long ago.

[wazza]

10 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Clubbing 6 matches in SA over a period of 11 years (not to mention the number of drops of his bowling in one of the series in SA and in another series, 98% of the wickets fell to seamers)  with matches in other parts of SENA  where he missed 70% of the matches just to prove a point is ridiculously stupid and utterly biased. Despite the @sandeep pointed out the obvious flaw in the analysis it fell on deaf ears. 

Can you do a stat check post 2013 and one fore pre 2013. I am sure numbers will be differenr. For ash.

 

Also people forget the important of pace attack. Ashwin was more deadly post 2015 because once attack was deadly

Now pace attack in 2022 and now recently pacers have declined for india. Ashwin's performances will go down consequently. 

 

Lyon plays with aus. Aus pacers are still in their prime as most are still under 32. 

[rollingstoned]

1 hour ago, Stan AF said:

At some point in time, ICF moderators should take a stock and examine how much lies and abuses is spread on their own forum against India's players.

 

I'd have expelled this serial liar long ago.

The word is polemicist. It's another thing to not be very good at it. 

[zen]

7 hours ago, rkt.india said:

but they dont assist spinners.

common sense is not to be used here!