Are our players just lazy?

[jf1gp_1]

On 8/15/2023 at 6:00 AM, sage said:

Why is it that none of our batsman can bowl part-time decently and none of our bowlers know how to hold a willow? Look at teams like England and clearly their players work on both skills. Do our players just not care? It can't be genes or talent or whatever. Getting a basic level of batting skill and practicing a bit of spin for our batsman shouldn't be impossible. Only reason can be is they're lazy and not putting in the time and effort to build on skills. They're not even developing new shots or bowling techniques in their main skillset. Seriously what do they do every day in training?

I believe we overestimate skill level of our yesteryear part time bowlers. Ganguly, Raina would have got killed if they bowled today. Sachin and Sehwag also would not have bowled 90% of games. Yuvi was the only one worth considering. 

 

Lets look at our current players. Virat was always a crappy bowler so no point discussing him. Rohit was brought in as batsman who bowled offspin but gave up after his shoulder injury. Iyer, Gill, SKY never bowled. 

 

So its harsh to call them lazy 

[singhvivek141]

21 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said:

I believe we overestimate skill level of our yesteryear part time bowlers. Ganguly, Raina would have got killed if they bowled today. Sachin and Sehwag also would not have bowled 90% of games. Yuvi was the only one worth considering. 

 

Lets look at our current players. Virat was always a crappy bowler so no point discussing him. Rohit was brought in as batsman who bowled offspin but gave up after his shoulder injury. Iyer, Gill, SKY never bowled. 

 

So its harsh to call them lazy 

He had enough tricks up his sleeve, if someone like Jadhav can play consistently as our 5th bowler..Sachin was leagues above.

 

The amount of turn Sachin used to get in his legspin was quite commendable for a part time bowler. Even Kumble acknowledged that has Sachin tried, he could have gotten much more wickets...he was bowling consistently until the Tennis elbow.

[jf1gp_1]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

He had enough tricks up his sleeve, if someone like Jadhav can play consistently as our 5th bowler..Sachin was leagues above.

 

The amount of turn Sachin used to get in his legspin was quite commendable for a part time bowler. Even Kumble acknowledged that has Sachin tried, he could have gotten much more wickets...he was bowling consistently until the Tennis elbow.

You actually are helping my point. Sure Jadhav only played a 6th of ODIs compared to Sachin but as far as bowling goes both have pretty much similar bowling records. Also Jadhav was only used as 6th bowler. Oldies were good for then not now. 

 

 

[singhvivek141]

41 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said:

You actually are helping my point. Sure Jadhav only played a 6th of ODIs compared to Sachin but as far as bowling goes both have pretty much similar bowling records. Also Jadhav was only used as 6th bowler. Oldies were good for then not now. 

 

 

If you go by pure numbers, even Yuvraj has almost similar stats as Jadhav and Sachin.

 

However unlike Jadhav & to some extent Yuvi..Sachin was not one trick pony, he can bowl medium pace, off spin, leg break and googly. Only reason he didn't concentrated much on his bowling because Sachin the batter was irreplaceable for the Indian team.

 

But just like Yuvi focused more on his bowling because team needed him in 2011 WC, Sachin if needed would have been as useful in current era.

 

Even now, there are batters like Root, Livingstone, Markram, Maxwell who worked and improved their bowling for the team. Sachin was already more skillful than either of the names above.

 

See the dip in air here, even best of best leggies dont get such dip. His leg breaks were amazing despite bowling only occasionally.

 

https://youtu.be/n65xwjwTQJQ?si=llcwhTUKd-5CWF0m

Edited September 8, 2023 by singhvivek141

[raki05]

3 hours ago, jf1gp_1 said:

I believe we overestimate skill level of our yesteryear part time bowlers. Ganguly, Raina would have got killed if they bowled today. Sachin and Sehwag also would not have bowled 90% of games. Yuvi was the only one worth considering. 

 

Lets look at our current players. Virat was always a crappy bowler so no point discussing him. Rohit was brought in as batsman who bowled offspin but gave up after his shoulder injury. Iyer, Gill, SKY never bowled. 

 

So its harsh to call them lazy 

Sachin used to turn bowlike Shane warne when pitch had little assistance , sehwag and raina had good defensive bowling and Ganuly had won a toranto series by 4-1 against pak just by his bowling. All these batsmen have motm performance for their bowling. Barring Raina all of them have taken wkts in test matches on crucial times. BTW when markram , livingston, maxwell , iftiqar , stoinis , neesham can bowl in modern cricket what made you think past Indian players couldn’t.

Edited September 8, 2023 by raki05

[Nikhil_cric]

1 hour ago, raki05 said:

Sachin used to turn bowlike Shane warne when pitch had little assistance , sehwag and raina had good defensive bowling and Ganuly had won a toranto series by 4-1 against pak just by his bowling. All these batsmen have motm performance for their bowling. Barring Raina all of them have taken wkts in test matches on crucial times. BTW when markram , livingston, maxwell , iftiqar , stoinis , neesham can bowl in modern cricket what made you think past Indian players couldn’t.

It's just an excuse. Nothing more. Friggin Kedar Jadhav started bowling regularly at the age of 31 and was a very good part timer and at times out bowled main spinners.

 

Rohit keeps saying that we don't have part time options but they don't even try out anyone to bowl 3-4 overs of off spin in bilaterals.

 

They play 6 bowling options even in T20's where you only have to bowl 4 overs each. 

 

And then wonder what went wrong.

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

22 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

It's just an excuse. Nothing more. Friggin Kedar Jadhav started bowling regularly at the age of 31 and was a very good part timer and at times out bowled main spinners.

 

Rohit keeps saying that we don't have part time options but they don't even try out anyone to bowl 3-4 overs of off spin in bilaterals.

 

They play 6 bowling options even in T20's where you only have to bowl 4 overs each. 

 

And then wonder what went wrong.

 

 

 

 

Iftikar is one of the most innocuous spinner to bowl in any era.  He is a quintessential part timer with zero skills. Yet he is bowling in current era and getting away with out being massacred. It is not like our current batsmen would have bowled in any other era.  

[putrevus]

6 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

He had enough tricks up his sleeve, if someone like Jadhav can play consistently as our 5th bowler..Sachin was leagues above.

 

The amount of turn Sachin used to get in his legspin was quite commendable for a part time bowler. Even Kumble acknowledged that has Sachin tried, he could have gotten much more wickets...he was bowling consistently until the Tennis elbow.

Sehwag also had perfect offspinner's action.His bowling in Perth 2008 was so vital in India winning that test.

 

 

[jf1gp_1]

3 hours ago, raki05 said:

Sachin used to turn bowlike Shane warne when pitch had little assistance , sehwag and raina had good defensive bowling and Ganuly had won a toranto series by 4-1 against pak just by his bowling. All these batsmen have motm performance for their bowling. Barring Raina all of them have taken wkts in test matches on crucial times. BTW when markram , livingston, maxwell , iftiqar , stoinis , neesham can bowl in modern cricket what made you think past Indian players couldn’t.

Stoinis and Neesham started as bowlers who can bat. Don't know about Iftiqar but markram is an occasional bowler. Every time Aussies relied on Maxwell as 5th bowler they have messed up. Let's not club Livingston with Maxwell etc he is a decent bowler.

India never went with a Sachin or yuvi or sehwag as 5th bowler. It's usually was combo of 2-3 part time as 5th. 

[Lord]

With new rules its not easy for part timers to bowl, specially finger spinners unless they have excellent control.

 

Its much more hopeful to improve batting of our bowlers than vice versa

[raki05]

2 hours ago, jf1gp_1 said:

Stoinis and Neesham started as bowlers who can bat. Don't know about Iftiqar but markram is an occasional bowler. Every time Aussies relied on Maxwell as 5th bowler they have messed up. Let's not club Livingston with Maxwell etc he is a decent bowler.

India never went with a Sachin or yuvi or sehwag as 5th bowler. It's usually was combo of 2-3 part time as 5th. 

Ya but India never went with 3-4 mediocre allrounders to cover up for 5th or 6th bowling option in the past.Our premier main batters who had guaranteed position in playing xi were providing 5th bowling option , hence we never compromised with quality bowling options or playing mediocre bowlers or allrounders  just because they can bat a bit . We alyways played with 6 proper batter one keeper batters and 4 bowlers who can bat a bit and not dud like kulcha or siraj. BTW Stoinis and Neesham never started their career as bowlers they always played as an alrounder and maxwell as an sixth bowling option defended 3  runs against pak when they had 4 wkts in hand. Labuschene, root, smith ,livingstone, markram all bowls in recent times whenever they are part of their odi squad. Not sure how you keep saying that tendulkar, seehwag , raina and yuvi couldnt have bowled today, they were all better than the foreign counterparts names which I mentioned before.

[Need4Speed]

Unlike many of us..who are working on jobs which are not our passion..our cricketers are following their passion..

if cricket is not their passion or love..then I have some questions..

 

if playing so much cricket and amount money and fame have taken its toll on them and the passion is not where they started they can be atleast professionals and try to keep honing their skills or work on their weaknesses

 

more than any of these 2..you are representing 1.5Billion peoples..playing for your country..that itself is the biggest motivation..

 

even then if you are lazy.then just play franchise cricket only and retire from national team..as you are not doing justice to your spot..

 

If you are not following any of the above and still in the team .then I will go to this extent and say..Aa thuu!

Edited September 8, 2023 by Need4Speed

[jf1gp_1]

12 hours ago, raki05 said:

Ya but India never went with 3-4 mediocre allrounders to cover up for 5th or 6th bowling option in the past.Our premier main batters who had guaranteed position in playing xi were providing 5th bowling option , hence we never compromised with quality bowling options or playing mediocre bowlers or allrounders  just because they can bat a bit . We alyways played with 6 proper batter one keeper batters and 4 bowlers who can bat a bit and not dud like kulcha or siraj. BTW Stoinis and Neesham never started their career as bowlers they always played as an alrounder and maxwell as an sixth bowling option defended 3  runs against pak when they had 4 wkts in hand. Labuschene, root, smith ,livingstone, markram all bowls in recent times whenever they are part of their odi squad. Not sure how you keep saying that tendulkar, seehwag , raina and yuvi couldnt have bowled today, they were all better than the foreign counterparts names which I mentioned before.

Are you sure ? 2003 WC Dravid was made to keep so a 7th batsman can be  accommodated. Even after Dhoni tool over, for almost a decade we only used to go with 4 frontline bowler and put our faith in part timers to finish quota of 5th bowler.

Edited September 9, 2023 by jf1gp_1

[zaqw222222]

I think this impact rule in IPL/SMAT will also hamper development of all rounders. 

[MediumPacer]

It's quite simple,it's all down to our conditions.Since batting is easy specially upfront, there is less risk of collapse,so depth in batting ain't that important.

 

Same goes with part time bowling,in our conditions bowling,specially effort bowling is a thankless job.At best we might find some finger spinners like uv or viru.

[raki05]

7 hours ago, jf1gp_1 said:

Are you sure ? 2003 WC Dravid was made to keep so a 7th batsman can be  accommodated. Even after Dhoni tool over, for almost a decade we only used to go with 4 frontline bowler and put our faith in part timers to finish quota of 5th bowler.

Yes Dravid was played as an keeper because other keeper batters were shite . Our 5th bowling option was so great that we always played with an extra batter. In present lineup no one can even rotate hand , hence you have to play shitty allrounders and one less batsman.

[Adamant]

Imagine Sachin, Sehwag and Ganguly's bowling stats if they had to bowl in this era of flat tracks. 

 

Just increase their bowling average by 10 you will get the picture. 

[Lord]

29 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Imagine Sachin, Sehwag and Ganguly's bowling stats if they had to bowl in this era of flat tracks. 

 

Just increase their bowling average by 10 you will get the picture. 

That's minimum. And economy rate above 6.

[figo6762]

Indian cricket is paid to be mediocre.. coz the eye balls will always be there paying the broadcaster money .. will take 5-10 years of more mediocrity and current generation to become older and start making kids play another sport .. the sachin of the 90’s gave passion the audience even if the team lost , Ganguly bestowed pride .. and then 2011 World Cup .. this won’t last long .. another 5 years media money will go and then cricket will improve … 

[vvvslaxman]

  

On 9/9/2023 at 7:39 AM, Adamant said:

Imagine Sachin, Sehwag and Ganguly's bowling stats if they had to bowl in this era of flat tracks. 

 

Just increase their bowling average by 10 you will get the picture. 

 

Maxwell last 2 years against non minnows  9 innings 9 wickets ER is 4.86 Average is 34.66   

Jadeja last 2 years against non minnows 11 innings 6 wickets ER is 4.62 average is  34.66

Axar last 2 years against non minnows   11 innings 7 wickets ER 5.53 average 49.00

 

We cannot put all specialist spinners in one bucket. 

 

Zampa, Kuldeep,  Shakib and a few more belong to different actegory. 

Then there is this specailist spinner group who are barely better than part timers who bring much more with bat.  Actually Sundar is the best spinner for India after Kuldeep in t he last 2 years.  

 

15 matches 15 wickets 4.86 ER  24.66 avge