Need to be patient with likes of Shubman Gill and Shreyas Iyer: Vikram Rathour

[putrevus]

31 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

So being drunk, coming late to team meetings, chasing women in clubs, not focusing on the fitness aren't enough reasons to drop him ??

 

Did I forgot to mention that in his last 10 tests, his average was 24.xx

Infact his last 6 tests, he averages 15

 

His overall Test average looks great coz of his awesome start to test career..he form simply took a nosedive and even his ODI career went down at the Gravitational velocity.

 

The cricket magzines published during those days wrote a lot about how much Tendulkar & Wadekar tried hard to push Kambli..but he simply wasn't there. Plus BCCI wasn't that rich those days to afford the mental conditioning of players, but Kambli was at fault as well. 

No they are not, 90% of them have been exaggarated .Why is going to night clubs a bad thing.

 

Fitness was an issue but not when he was dropped.

 

How does Manjrekar who had one good series in his career end up playing more tests than Kambli.

 

Kambli was not out of the  Indian team because of cricketing reasons.He was a colorful character .

 

Why would you think he would not have improved after his slump.He was  never given a chance.

 

Kambli suffered in comparision with Sachin, he was never going to be as great as Sachin.But he sure would have had a very decent career .he sure would have been better odi player than Dravid or even Ganguly.

 

Confidence is very fragile..Some great ones choose to fight while some mortal ones succumb to it. Kambli needed guidance not shame which he got from both media and selectors.

 

It is not easy to handle money,fame and publicity for young kid.

Edited February 3 by putrevus

[Muloghonto]

38 minutes ago, putrevus said:

No they are not, 90% of them have been exaggarated .Why is going to night clubs a bad thing.

 

Fitness was an issue but not when he was dropped.

 

How does Manjrekar who had one good series in his career end up playing more tests than Kambli.

 

Kambli was not out of the  Indian team because of cricketing reasons.He was a colorful character .

 

Why would you think he would not have improved after his slump.He was  never given a chance.

 

Kambli suffered in comparision with Sachin, he was never going to be as great as Sachin.But he sure would have had a very decent career .he sure would have been better odi player than Dravid or even Ganguly.

 

Confidence is very fragile..Some great ones choose to fight while some mortal ones succumb to it. Kambli needed guidance not shame which he got from both media and selectors.

 

It is not easy to handle money,fame and publicity for young kid.

 

 

Sometimes timing is everything. 
Kambli was dropped from the test side after having a terrible 94 & 95 season, where he played 10 tests, scored only two half centuries and averaged less than 25.00 with the bat. 

In 96, we had Dravid & Ganguly debut- the latter, if memory serves me right, debuted with a test ton in England. 
Given that Tendalya was untouchable, Azhar was the captain and had a late career resurgence ( again, if memory serves me right, he absolutely murdered Donald-Pollock-Schultz-Klusener in south africa !!), there were only two spots in the middle order available and Dravid-Ganguly locked them in very early on.

People tend to often forget the ' in the now' viewpoints and assessments of retired players and hold their entire careers to judge them, but in these issues (aka why someone got played over someone or dropped, etc), career average matter naught and it often boils down to form and record till then. Once Gangu-Dravid double debuted, it was game over for Kambli. 
Why ? coz Ganguly averaged 50+ with the bat in both formats for the first few years of his debut - the solid ODI partner to open with Tendy, the stylish(if sometimes loose) middle order bat who brought stability to the middle order and Dravid has always looked extremely sharp in Tests from day1, most of his low scores being genuinely good balls and he was the other spot gone. #3-6 locked down. 

So no room for Kambli. 

Then came Laxman shortly after and pushed kambli even further down the pecking order. It was nearly game over. His only hope was for Azhar to retire- which came 4 years later but as it happens, 4 years later, Kambli was doing very mediocre in domestic cricket for a couple of seasons now. He started to play a bit better by the end of 2001 but then that year a Veeru happened. It was game over. 

This sometimes happens. it actually happened to holding- he got injured and lost a bit of speed and his performance dipped a bit for a year- which is expected, but then boom, he was dropped and a certain Ian bishop came in his stead. 

[Vijy]

10 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

 

Sometimes timing is everything. 
Kambli was dropped from the test side after having a terrible 94 & 95 season, where he played 10 tests, scored only two half centuries and averaged less than 25.00 with the bat. 

In 96, we had Dravid & Ganguly debut- the latter, if memory serves me right, debuted with a test ton in England. 
Given that Tendalya was untouchable, Azhar was the captain and had a late career resurgence ( again, if memory serves me right, he absolutely murdered Donald-Pollock-Schultz-Klusener in south africa !!), there were only two spots in the middle order available and Dravid-Ganguly locked them in very early on.

People tend to often forget the ' in the now' viewpoints and assessments of retired players and hold their entire careers to judge them, but in these issues (aka why someone got played over someone or dropped, etc), career average matter naught and it often boils down to form and record till then. Once Gangu-Dravid double debuted, it was game over for Kambli. 
Why ? coz Ganguly averaged 50+ with the bat in both formats for the first few years of his debut - the solid ODI partner to open with Tendy, the stylish(if sometimes loose) middle order bat who brought stability to the middle order and Dravid has always looked extremely sharp in Tests from day1, most of his low scores being genuinely good balls and he was the other spot gone. #3-6 locked down. 

So no room for Kambli. 

Then came Laxman shortly after and pushed kambli even further down the pecking order. It was nearly game over. His only hope was for Azhar to retire- which came 4 years later but as it happens, 4 years later, Kambli was doing very mediocre in domestic cricket for a couple of seasons now. He started to play a bit better by the end of 2001 but then that year a Veeru happened. It was game over. 

This sometimes happens. it actually happened to holding- he got injured and lost a bit of speed and his performance dipped a bit for a year- which is expected, but then boom, he was dropped and a certain Ian bishop came in his stead. 

kambli could have still played at 5 or 6 even with dravid & ganguly. many forget that gangu started out in top order, so there was still a middle order slot available for kambli

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, Vijy said:

kambli could have still played at 5 or 6 even with dravid & ganguly. many forget that gangu started out in top order, so there was still a middle order slot available for kambli

No. In the Tests, Gangu didn't open. The test middle order was locked down as Gangu-Tendu-Azzu-Dravu. The end. 
in ODIs, Gangu opened with Tendu, but the middle order had a certain ' Sir Waqar Killer' OG Jadeja and that means 5 spots taken ( our 7th & 8th spot were keeper-who-cant bats ( mongia, another one i forget,etc and Robin Singh). The final middle order spot turned out to be a revolving door for Sidhu, Kambli, Kanitkar, VVS and even Robin Singh pushed up to #6 to accomodate bit parts like Sunil Joshi, Chopra, etc. 

And Kambli didnt exactly do well with the few chances he got in the 96-2000 period in the ODIs to make it stick or to try and barge in the test team. 

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

There's also a sliding scale for performance and shenanigans. Your colourfulness will be forgiven if you put up consistently good performances. Otherwise one slip up and you'll be out of favor. Nothing profound. Happens everywhere 

[R!TTER]

4 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

And Kambli didnt exactly do well with the few chances he got in the 96-2000 period in the ODIs to make it stick or to try and barge in the test team. 

 

Yes Kambli was really hard done by compared to today's standards, the likes of Yuvraj/Raina/Gill/Iyer heck RGS & brat have been given longer or much longer ropes in their slump! I wonder if he nicked Azhar or Jadeja's Rolex or what to have been treated that badly 

Edited February 4 by R!TTER

[Trichromatic]

Season		Matches	Inns	Not Out	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	Ct	St
2014-15	(India)	10	17	1	809	153	50.56	2	6	6
2015	(India)	3	5	0	171	49	34.20	0	0	1
2015-16	(India)	13	21	0	1414	200	67.33	4	8	14
2016	(Australia)	1	2	0	45	26	22.50	0	0	0
2016-17	(India)	11	19	2	927	202*	54.52	3	2	5
2017	(South Africa)	2	4	0	112	65	28.00	0	1	4
2017-18	(India)	6	9	0	511	138	56.77	2	3	2
2018-19	(India)	8	15	1	603	178	43.07	1	3	5
2021-22	(India)	4	7	0	388	105	55.42	1	3	6
2022	(England)	1	2	0	34	19	17.00	0	0	2
2022-23	(Bangladesh)	2	3	1	202	87	101.00	0	2	1
2022-23	(India)	4	6	0	150	71	25.00	0	1	3
2023-24	(India)	3	4	0	123	48	30.75	0	0	0
2023-24	(South Africa)	2	4	1	41	31	13.66	0	0	2

 

 

Iyer's FC record.

 

Last 44 matches, 3136 runs at avg of 44.8. Even if you remove his record from this he averages 48 in 30 matches.

 

And he is regular in test cricket for India.

[Number]

I started watching cricket around 97-98. I remember Kambli did get some chances in ODIs in 98-99 season but he couldn't score a single 50. If he was such a great talent he would at least do well somewhere. May be he had lost all the spark by then.

I remember an experienced poster here who had watched cricket since late 70s, commented that Kambli's talent gets overrated. He wasn't anywhere near Sachin. Even at his peak there was a big difference how Sachin and Kambli handled Walsh and Benjamin in 94 test series vs WI.

Edited February 4 by Number

[Muloghonto]

46 minutes ago, Number said:

I started watching cricket around 97-98. I remember Kambli did get some chances in ODIs in 98-99 season but he couldn't score a single 50. If he was such a great talent he would at least do well somewhere. May be he had lost all the spark by then.

I remember an experienced poster here who had watched cricket since late 70s, commented that Kambli's talent gets overrated. He wasn't anywhere near Sachin. Even at his peak there was a big difference how Sachin and Kambli handled Walsh and Benjamin in 94 test series vs WI.

Kambli vs Sachin was fun, when Kambli was in form & they faced spinners. Against pace, Kambli never had the same 'fursat' as Sachin had and always looked knackered, hurried and ungainly. His way of dominating/trying to dominate pacy &bouncy bowlers was to defend for a while, throw his hands at everything and then try and hide at the other end. Ultimately, Kambli was overrated imo, as he is not anywhere close to Gangu as a batter nevermind the other big names. Even in a funk, Azhar looked ten times the batsman that Kambli did outside of his immortal series.

 

[Adamant]

Sundar is a very good batsman and has the potential to play as a specialist batsman too, I am quite sure he won’t do worse than Rahane.

 

Add his bowling skills here and we get a very fine cricketer, TM should plan to get him into the team and prepare him for the BG tour this year.

 

He has shown he can play quality bowling on sporting decks in Aus, he also did well against Eng on the turners that we produced last time they toured, I have no doubt in my mind that he is a pretty good player, not an ATG material or anything but exactly what we need.

 

 

[Trichromatic]

Why doesn't he ask Iyer to be bit patient in the field?

[vishalvirsingh]

On 2/2/2024 at 1:39 PM, Gollum said:

From 2 days back, these two enjoy full backing of TM, and less said about Rathour the better.

 

Sarfaraz, Sundar will only carry bottles and towels. 

 

 LINK

i agree to Rathore "Shreyas and Gill are way better than Sarfaraz and Sundar"

 

My understanding is that Shreyas is the best player against SPINNERS in the world ( he has issues against bouncers on a fast bowling pitch n I m good to keep him out f 11 on a green track in Africa or england or Australia)

 

Sarfaraz seems to be a good batsman but I am not sure whether he is very god against fast bowlers and I am quite sure that shreyas > sarfaraz in a test /odi/t20.

Washington is as good as Axar as a spin all rounder and GILL is next level ( though he was out of form ) batsman, kinda as good as Rohit/Yashasvi/rohit/Virat.

[Trichromatic]

1 hour ago, vishalvirsingh said:

i agree to Rathore "Shreyas and Gill are way better than Sarfaraz and Sundar"

 

My understanding is that Shreyas is the best player against SPINNERS in the world ( he has issues against bouncers on a fast bowling pitch n I m good to keep him out f 11 on a green track in Africa or england or Australia)

 

Sarfaraz seems to be a good batsman but I am not sure whether he is very god against fast bowlers and I am quite sure that shreyas > sarfaraz in a test /odi/t20.

Washington is as good as Axar as a spin all rounder and GILL is next level ( though he was out of form ) batsman, kinda as good as Rohit/Yashasvi/rohit/Virat.

 

Iyer is not the best player of spin even in Indian team.

[Vijy]

On 2/3/2024 at 5:38 PM, Muloghonto said:

No. In the Tests, Gangu didn't open. The test middle order was locked down as Gangu-Tendu-Azzu-Dravu. The end. 
in ODIs, Gangu opened with Tendu, but the middle order had a certain ' Sir Waqar Killer' OG Jadeja and that means 5 spots taken ( our 7th & 8th spot were keeper-who-cant bats ( mongia, another one i forget,etc and Robin Singh). The final middle order spot turned out to be a revolving door for Sidhu, Kambli, Kanitkar, VVS and even Robin Singh pushed up to #6 to accomodate bit parts like Sunil Joshi, Chopra, etc. 

And Kambli didnt exactly do well with the few chances he got in the 96-2000 period in the ODIs to make it stick or to try and barge in the test team. 

 

Didn't Gangu open in tests at first? or no. 3?

[Muloghonto]

12 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Didn't Gangu open in tests at first? or no. 3?

#3. 
he debuted in England as #3, hit a ton and dravid debuted as #6. They kind of played musical chairs with those two spots for a while.

Those days Indian openers were Sadagoppan Ramesh and Rathore.

 

[Vijy]

Just now, Muloghonto said:

#3. 
he debuted in England as #3, hit a ton and dravid debuted as #6. They kind of played musical chairs with those two spots for a while.

Those days Indian openers were Sadagoppan Ramesh and Rathore.

 

should have rejigged batting, and somehow shoved kambli in #5 or #6. given that gangu's short ball weakness was not yet known, he could have opened then.

[Muloghonto]

8 minutes ago, Vijy said:

should have rejigged batting, and somehow shoved kambli in #5 or #6. given that gangu's short ball weakness was not yet known, he could have opened then.

Well back then test openers were a specialised spot and it was Sehwag who was the first test opener for India who hadn't opened in FC cricket. 
They weren't gonna shove in a Ranji #4 like Gangu in to opening. And he scored a ton on debut, so that sealed his middle order spot.

 

[putrevus]

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Well back then test openers were a specialised spot and it was Sehwag who was the first test opener for India who hadn't opened in FC cricket. 
They weren't gonna shove in a Ranji #4 like Gangu in to opening. And he scored a ton on debut, so that sealed his middle order spot.

 

Sehwag scored 100 on his debut too in middle order.

 

it’s is Sehwag’s credit he was good enough to open.