Why is Richards Hadlee rated better bowler than Imran Khan?

[singhvivek141]

42 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Dunno how India came into this discussion. Topic is comparing a Pakistani to Kiwi, but this guy couldn't resist, had to push it far. 

 

Good that he keeps blowing his cover. Other posters kept saying the same, should have listened to them before.

Majority of the Pak's has a habit of getting validations from Indians, to exert their hollow supremacy and keep their relevance.

Unfortunately, some gullible Indians fans fall for that and start doubting themselves. 

 

How capable Pak bowler are post the strictness by ICC is known everywhere. Ajmal was bending 40 degress and yet bowled for years, I dont see any Pak fans beinh apologetic for that...imagine the simpness if Ashwin had done the same..our own "fans" would have raised question marks...let alone Pak's. 

 

 

[putrevus]

3 hours ago, Gollum said:

Pak bowling has gone to dogs since clampdown on tampering and chucking. Think about it, they can produce more capable batsmen than bowlers since this sport became fairer. 

Their overall team has gone to dogs also once neutral umpires were introduced. Indian team performance has improved leaps and bounds once sport became fairer.

[Kron]

5 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Few reasons

1. Hadlee is "white"...skin colour is a definite parameter which Asians can't ignore.

2. Imran & ball tempering, just like Murali vs Warne...even Imran's stats are considered incorrect /inflated due to these allegations. Murali atleast had genuine issues, Imran himself agreed that he did ball tempering in a local county cricket game in England (1994). Wonder what he might have done in international games hiding under the radar.

3. For India specifically, his comments against Indians and his animosity vs Kapil. Akram said once in an interview that Imran had jealousy against Kapil the day he won 1983 WC. There is every definite chance that jealousy might have propagated to no 2 (through Sarafarz was doing the ball tempering in 1970's itself).

Imran Khan is really white himself 

.just saying lol

[putrevus]

2 hours ago, Adamant said:

Imran was a great new ball bowler too, its not all bottlecaps.

 

Hadlee is rated better because of a better balanced record in other strong countries.

 

Imran is easily the better allrounder though and the greatest cricketer Asia has produced by a landslide margin.

Atg bowler

Test class batsman

World cup winning captain

Oxford graduate

Alpha Stud

PM of a nation

 

Aura 1000000.

 

Comparing to him we have a 5 foot 2 vada in pav eater 

No, he is not ATG bowler nor is he a test class batsman.

 

No he is not greatest cricket from Asia.

 

Stop acting as if he is the only world cup winning captain.

Edited August 10, 2024 by putrevus

[Kron]

Goat Asian bowler od all time is bumrah

 

Imran probz 4th after bumrah wasim and Waqar.

[putrevus]

15 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Majority of the Pak's has a habit of getting validations from Indians, to exert their hollow supremacy and keep their relevance.

Unfortunately, some gullible Indians fans fall for that and start doubting themselves. 

 

How capable Pak bowler are post the strictness by ICC is known everywhere. Ajmal was bending 40 degress and yet bowled for years, I dont see any Pak fans beinh apologetic for that...imagine the simpness if Ashwin had done the same..our own "fans" would have raised question marks...let alone Pak's. 

 

 

Spot on,

 

Was Imran a great bowler, I don't think so, without reverse swing he would be a great bowler.How he got reverse swing is upto the debate plus did he benefit from batsmen not knowing what reverse swing was at that time.

 

I would still  say he was a very good bowler.I will give him credit for transforming himself from medium pacer to fast bowler.

 

 

[Kron]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Spot on,

 

Was Imran a great bowler, I don't think so, without reverse swing he would be a great bowler.How he got reverse swing is upto the debate plus did he benefit from batsmen not knowing what reverse swing was at that time.

 

I would still  say he was a very good bowler.I will give him credit for transforming himself from medium pacer to fast bowler.

 

 

without ball tampering, bottle caps etc, i would say he would be a 26 averaging bowler. still quality but not amongst the greatest ever. a touh under. like a gillespie level. when i say ball tampering, i dont mean when the ball naturally starts reversing due to wear and tear. I meant like when he actually scraped the surface of the ball intentionally with external sources. 

[Gollum]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

No, he is not ATG bowler nor is he a test class batsman.

 

No he is not greatest cricket from Asia.

 

Stop acting as if he is the only world cup winning captain.

Imagine the Pakistani bringing up degrees when every dynast politician in India has sociology, anthro, philosophy, African studies, gender studies degrees in Oxbridge and Harvard. 

 

Imran Khan the PM, less said the better. Good for begging, and normalizing Taliban. 

 

Even his charity hospital was funded by others including Godrejs. 

[putrevus]

24 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Imagine the Pakistani bringing up degrees when every dynast politician in India has sociology, anthro, philosophy, African studies, gender studies degrees in Oxbridge and Harvard. 

 

Imran Khan the PM, less said the better. Good for begging, and normalizing Taliban. 

 

Even his charity hospital was funded by others including Godrejs. 

Kumble, Srinath, Zaheer Khan and many more are Engineers who are better qualified than Imran Khan.

 

He did well to build that hospital, good for him.I applaud him for it.

 

But as a PM you are right he was downright awful.

[deathmonger]

Imran average outside home - 25+

 

Hadlee - 21

 

Waqar 25+, Wasim 24+

 

If they are so good why relatively mediocre away from home?

 

Bottle caps

[Majestic]

19 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

How do you know they only tempered in few games ?

Explain it to me please how suddenly the effectiveness of Pak bowlers vanished once ICC became strict of ball tempering & chucking. It's been 24 years in this millennium and they haven't been able to produce even one half decent bowler.

 

Their best spinner post 2000 was a chucker...even Saqlain might have been a chucker in the hindsight...who knows ?

 

Pakistan has been the inventor of many wrong activities in the world..both in cricketing and non-cricketing sense. Let's not overrate the bottle cap ghiser like Imran. 

Had he played in present era, his standard won't be more than a 30-32 averaging bowler in all formats, he is a fraud and that's where it all ends.

You really think if Imran was tampering with ball years after years, the rest of the world which includes the arrogant bitter Englishmen and Aussies would have allowed the Pakistanis doing this? Pakistan smashed England home and away for fun in 80s and 90s, if this was all via ball tampering, England would be the first team to resort back. He may have tampered with the ball few games here and there but suggesting he made a whole career out of it is laughable.

 

Saqlain was not a chucker, he was the inventor of 'doosra' which Bhajji imitated by resorting to chucking occasionally.

 

You are talking about bottle caps and tampering, how does Imran manage to average 25 away from home? Kapil's away average is 32, what do we say about Kapil then?  Reality is just that most player does well at home because they are used to bowling in those conditions and know what line and length will trouble the visiting batsman. And Imran still managing an away average of 25 tells us that he would have been an all time great bowler in any era, averaging under 25.

 

Your claim of 31-32 average may have made sense if his away average was that much but it sounds absurd when his away average itself is 25.

[Majestic]

10 hours ago, deathmonger said:

Imran average outside home - 25+

 

Hadlee - 21

 

Waqar 25+, Wasim 24+

 

If they are so good why relatively mediocre away from home?

 

Bottle caps

25.78 is not a mediocre away average in any era. Everyone does better at home than away.

 

Kapil averages 26 at home with ball and 32 away. That's what you call it "mediocre".

[Majestic]

18 hours ago, Gollum said:

And @Majestic, dunno what has gone into you. Stop spending too much time on Pak sites, shed your inferiority complex. Otherwise you will become a joker here. 

 

Greatest cricketer in history, greatest fast bowler in history, greatest captain in history, greatest humanitarian in history, greatest PM in history.....even Bradford Mirpuris don't take it this far. 

This is just a discussion thread. There is no inferiority complex here. Pakistan have been a mediocre side in last 20 years, there is no denying to that and India have left then in dust across formats. Analysing any ex-cricketer international career doesn't make anyone feel inferior.

[Kron]

18 hours ago, putrevus said:

Their overall team has gone to dogs also once neutral umpires were introduced. Indian team performance has improved leaps and bounds once sport became fairer.

Very good point tbh.

Don't forget Ozzie's we're doing sand paper crap till 2018. For all we know they still could be using them. Who knows what else they used to cheat in 2000 era. 

 

Kohli was always fair. Never cheated. Remember Smith trying to ask his team for a referral. Was happy when kohli shut his mouth. 

 

This applies even to olympics btw. Hockey many times we get robbed. And a few other sports. 

[Kron]

17 hours ago, putrevus said:

Spot on,

 

Was Imran a great bowler, I don't think so, without reverse swing he would be a great bowler.How he got reverse swing is upto the debate plus did he benefit from batsmen not knowing what reverse swing was at that time.

 

I would still  say he was a very good bowler.I will give him credit for transforming himself from medium pacer to fast bowler.

 

 

That's a bit harsh. I still think he would be a great bowler but not in the top tier mould. Just a touch under. Like Gillespie shami Johnson philander level. 

[rkt.india]

23 hours ago, Majestic said:

1. Marshall, Viv, Lara are widely regarded as the greatest cricketers in the game. Skin colour is not a viable parameter as most cricketers these days do rate the likes of Kohli, Rohit, Tendulkar extremely high.

 

2. Ball tampering allegations is understandable but wasn't it common in 80s and 90s? Only Pakistan didn't do that. Also, doing it in few games shouldn't make much of difference. What is Mitchell Starc stats? Didn't he benefited with it for a short period also? Few allegations shouldn't be enough to cover up for the difference in conditions in which they bowled.

Only Pakistan did that. Others didn't have much idea about it.

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

You really think if Imran was tampering with ball years after years, the rest of the world which includes the arrogant bitter Englishmen and Aussies would have allowed the Pakistanis doing this? Pakistan smashed England home and away for fun in 80s and 90s, if this was all via ball tampering, England would be the first team to resort back. He may have tampered with the ball few games here and there but suggesting he made a whole career out of it is laughable.

 

Saqlain was not a chucker, he was the inventor of 'doosra' which Bhajji imitated by resorting to chucking occasionally.

 

You are talking about bottle caps and tampering, how does Imran manage to average 25 away from home? Kapil's away average is 32, what do we say about Kapil then?  Reality is just that most player does well at home because they are used to bowling in those conditions and know what line and length will trouble the visiting batsman. And Imran still managing an away average of 25 tells us that he would have been an all time great bowler in any era, averaging under 25.

 

Your claim of 31-32 average may have made sense if his away average was that much but it sounds absurd when his away average itself is 25.

Bottle caps were available everywhere, I don't think Umpires even used to take care of ball during that era. The team which use to have sabotaged umpires in their home, will resort to every possible illegal ways to keep their stats floating.

If you dissect into kapil's away records..his stats are top class in Australia, WI..two of the tougest team of his era.

His bowling stats are poor in England and NZ, maybe the traditional swing didn't suit his style or the pitches were different.
Example 1981 series vs NZ, first game he took 7 wickets...second game was rain affected and I don't know under which conditions he bowled. Third game even Hadlee went wicketles.
Remaining matches vs NZ he played in 1990, at the dawn of his career.

Stats in Pakistan was poor pretty sure due to bad umpiring.

Imran's stats are 28 in Australia, 25 in WI. In both countries Kapil is better than him, the two toughest nations.

 

Also, AFAIK...discussion was on Imran vs Hadlee. How does Kapil came in the scene ? Kapil took his team to glory in 1983 when Imran was trying to find out which bottle cap to use for tempering the ball.

[prudent_kreeda]

22 hours ago, Adamant said:

Here goes the low iq rant.

 

Do you know bottle caps aren’t effective from ball one and the umpire do notice that if a new ball is shredded in the first few overs itself.

 

Check Imrans wicket tally with the new ball that would be enough proof of his effectiveness, people across world forums rate him as one of the 5 ATg pacers .

 

Pak in those times did not get lot of wickets in first 10 overs esp. in pitches of sc and even outside SC where pitches did not provide lot more swing. 

It  was post that 10-12 overs they were getting lot of wickets with prodigious movement with older ball. 

[Majestic]

48 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Bottle caps were available everywhere, I don't think Umpires even used to take care of ball during that era. The team which use to have sabotaged umpires in their home, will resort to every possible illegal ways to keep their stats floating.

If you dissect into kapil's away records..his stats are top class in Australia, WI..two of the tougest team of his era.

His bowling stats are poor in England and NZ, maybe the traditional swing didn't suit his style or the pitches were different.
Example 1981 series vs NZ, first game he took 7 wickets...second game was rain affected and I don't know under which conditions he bowled. Third game even Hadlee went wicketles.
Remaining matches vs NZ he played in 1990, at the dawn of his career.

Stats in Pakistan was poor pretty sure due to bad umpiring.

Imran's stats are 28 in Australia, 25 in WI. In both countries Kapil is better than him, the two toughest nations.

 

Also, AFAIK...discussion was on Imran vs Hadlee. How does Kapil came in the scene ? Kapil took his team to glory in 1983 when Imran was trying to find out which bottle cap to use for tempering the ball.

New Zealand during Hadlee era was unarguably better than Australia. Australia were going all downhill before Allan Border resurrected them. Additionally, England was still quality side with likes of Gower, Gooch, Gatting,Botham etc otherwise Kapil won't have averaged 40 with bowl there. 

 

Kapil was mentioned not for comparison but because the argument used against Imran is his away average, which is actually excellent itself, i.e. 25.78. This itself puts him in league of ATG fast bowlers. His home conditions were tough for batting. Additionally, he was also an excellent new bowl bowler which is why he did well overseas. The difference in averages you are mentioning for Windies and Australia is pretty small, like +2,+1 etc.

 

It needs to be mentioned that Hadlee's home record is extremely influenced by conditions beneficial for swing bowling.

[zen]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

f you dissect into kapil's away records..his stats are top class in Australia, WI..two of the tougest team of his era.

His bowling stats are poor in England and NZ, maybe the traditional swing didn't suit his style or the pitches were different.

Kapil started bowling in Aus in the 80s where Imran stats’ are better iirc. In Aus, Imran’s numbers are impacted due to bowling in the 70s.
 

In WI in 1987, Imran picked up around 25 wickets in 3 tests. That test series was a draw but many think Pak could have won it if not , ironically, for umpiring! 

In 1987, Imran would have been 35 years old. Hadlee too was around Imran’s age. 

 

Edited August 11, 2024 by zen