Will Kohli retire as a top 5 Indian batter in tests?

[zen]

22 minutes ago, StraightDrive26 said:

That does not mean that he gets the same opportunity like Tendulkar, Sehwag and Dravid to put up big scores. For example a batter at number 10 may have a high percentage of not outs in a strong batting line up, that does not mean that he will average more. In the same way VVS might have had not outs but at the same time, he would have had to sacrifice his wicket in the look out for runs when batting with the tail. If VVS was playing in the era of Jadeja and Ashwin, I am sure he would have had more hundreds and slightly higher average. I am not saying he is perfect, he had his own flaws but again he never looked uncomfortable anytime at the crease except for few ODI games. Virat on the other hand has one major flaw which isn't able to rectify for 5 years now. VVS wasn't an ATG in Tests and so is Virat as he is fast catching up with VVS in terms of average. Virat would have ended up with 52-53 average in Tests if he actually cared. I don't think he does which is the reason he would never be an ATG in my books. May be a top 10 Indian batter but surely not in top 5 just because he has more hundreds. Ishant has 300+ wickets in Tests, more wickets than Roberts, Garner, Brett lee, Holding etc, but no one will say Ishant is a better bowler than any of them. 

Ok but I mentioned a fact where VVS has more not outs when you said that “batting at 5 or 6 does not mean he has more not outs”. 
 

Note that VVS’ average is impacted relatively more positively through not outs.
 

Based on simple/rough math:

 

8781 runs in 225 innings, gives him 39 runs per inning. His average is around 46. 18% benefit.

 

Tendulkar on the other hand has a runs per inning of 48 and an average of 54 - 13% benefit.

 

Sehwag - 48 v 49 (hardly any benefit)

 

On VVS v Kohli, to me it is no big deal (can’t go wrong with either based on what you value or are seeking to bring to your team) as you can see from my AT 11 posted on the previous page! I would probably pick Pant as pure batsman over the two (will be the WK but if there was other WK option)  

Edited December 30, 2024 by zen

[zen]

15 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Eng was a poor Test team at the time (most Ashes were very one-sided for much of his career), but I agree he has some nice performances against WI. And  also did okay against some other good teams.

Yeah, but for Ashes I would still give Aus the points. Remember teams like India used to struggle in England (and continue to do so). The conditions in England are different than in Aus where one has to encounter swing so good batting is appreciated (bowling to Eng maybe not that much relatively). 

[Vijy]

26 minutes ago, First class said:

Yes, and  if have to pick one of them for my team , I would pick Abbas in Pakistan and England and Kohli everywhere else. 

that makes sense because Abbas knew the pitches of both countries very well. I saw & briefly met Abbas in his county stint. Only asian to score 100 100s in FC matches.

[Vijy]

3 minutes ago, zen said:

Yeah, but for Ashes I would still give Aus the points. Remember teams like India used to struggle in England (and continue to do so). The conditions in England are different than in Aus where one has to encounter swing so good batting is appreciated (bowling to Eng maybe not that much relatively). 

An interesting point is that Ind did quite well in Eng in 90s and especially 00s (2002 and 2007 tours) because our batters were better equipped to handle swing/seam than the bounce of SA and Aus. This includes SRT, Dravid, Azhar, and Ganguly. Later Ind batters had a decline in their capacity to play swing/seam to the same degree, as seen from Kohli, Rahane, and Pujara onwards. They all did well in patches though.

Edited December 30, 2024 by Vijy

[zen]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

An interesting point is that Ind did quite well in Eng in 90s and especially 00s (2002 and 2007 tours) because our batters were better equipped to handle swing/seam than the bounce of SA and Aus. This includes SRT, Dravid, Azhar, and Ganguly. Later Ind batters had a decline in their capacity to play swing/seam to the same degree, as seen from Kohli, Rahane, and Pujara onwards. They all did well in patches though.

Yeah, but we still lacked relative consistency. 
 

 

[maniac]

17 hours ago, zen said:

 

Note that VVS’ average is impacted relatively more positively through not outs.
 

reading data is no longer pure arithmetic. There is context added even in simple data marts now.

 

Having a high % of notours for a top- middle order batsmen is a very good stat in test cricket: it means you have either finished the game with a win/draw or you survived the conditions while everyone else around  you got dismissed.

 

it may not be the same in white ball where some player can remain notout to boost his average with selfish cricket. Obviously it may not always be negative too. So that needs to be factored in.

[AKane]

Just remember that early Indian batsmen - esp Gavaskar opening - did not have the luxury of this... their career would have been over if not their life.

 

Helmets.

 

 

 

[Texan]

He is not even top 7 batter, forget about top 5.

Gavaskar

Dravid

Tendulkar

Sehwag

Laxman

Hazare

Amarnath

 

[nitinbwj]

His average has dropped from 55 in 2019 to 47 now.  Even Sehwag's average dropped from 52 to 49 when he decided that the time has come. If he keeps on playing, it would drop to 42 in no time.

[New guy]

44 minutes ago, AKane said:

Just remember that early Indian batsmen - esp Gavaskar opening - did not have the luxury of this... their career would have been over if not their life.

 

Helmets.

 

 

 

That's a facile argument, introduction of helmets changed the technique of batsmen,

 

the reason batsmen get hit in the head mostly is because they are confident enough to put weight on front foot and pull from front foot. Sachins weight is on front foot on that ball. 

 

Before helmet batsmen used to put more weight on back foot and hook and pull behind the wicket and not square. 

 

You can check old videos of cricket and see how many hook shots are played and where the weight of the batsmen is

 

Earlier focus was to avoid body hits and be on back mostly, with helmet batsmen could attack more and put weight forward more. 

[New guy]

18 hours ago, Vijy said:

An interesting point is that Ind did quite well in Eng in 90s and especially 00s (2002 and 2007 tours) because our batters were better equipped to handle swing/seam than the bounce of SA and Aus. This includes SRT, Dravid, Azhar, and Ganguly. Later Ind batters had a decline in their capacity to play swing/seam to the same degree, as seen from Kohli, Rahane, and Pujara onwards. They all did well in patches though.

Sachin had god like figures in Australia my dude. So did laxman. I don't think batting was ever the problem in Australia 

 

In fact for a period of 10 years (2000 to 2009), India's record in Australia was  played 9, loss 4, win 2, draws 3. It was head and shoulders above any other teams in Australia against that goat team.

[AKane]

13 minutes ago, New guy said:

That's a facile argument, introduction of helmets changed the technique of batsmen,

 

the reason batsmen get hit in the head mostly is because they are confident enough to put weight on front foot and pull from front foot. Sachins weight is on front foot on that ball. 

 

Before helmet batsmen used to put more weight on back foot and hook and pull behind the wicket and not square. 

 

You can check old videos of cricket and see how many hook shots are played and where the weight of the batsmen is

 

Earlier focus was to avoid body hits and be on back mostly, with helmet batsmen could attack more and put weight forward more. 

ok - but the fear of the injury was there while batting. A lot less to almost gone now.

 

Read this horror.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/rewind-when-charlie-griffith-put-nari-contractor-in-hospital-807661

 

Some excerpts....

 

Worrell warns Indians

Contractor recalled a cocktail party when Frank Worrell, the West Indies captain, warned him about what to expect. "As we had so many injuries before the game, [Frank] suggested that it would be better to get out than getting hit. Frank said Griffith was crude and impolite. He cited an example of him hitting an 18-year-old batsman on the head and he didn't even apologise to him, so Frank told us to take care."

 

The ball.

Wisden was clear. "Contractor did not duck into the ball. He got behind it to play at it. He probably wanted to fend it away towards short-leg, but could not judge the height to which it would fly, bent back from the waist in a desperate, split-second attempt to avoid it and was hit just above the right ear."

 

After

In the pavilion, Contractor changed his bloodied clothes but the bleeding continued and he was rushed to hospital.

Back in the middle the match continued. Soon after, Griffith hit Vijay Manjrekar in the nose and he too had to retire hurt.

 

At the hospital

At the hospital, Contractor's condition worsened. He was throwing up, and was losing movement on the left of his body.........

 

 

Would the helmet have helped Contractor/Manjrekar? Front foot, back foot or any foot... I think so.

Edited December 31, 2024 by AKane

[New guy]

19 hours ago, Vijy said:

There is strong correlation between level of technical brilliance and number of matchwinning knocks; obviously exceptions do exist. Lara was great, but 2nd best batter of his era in terms of match winning knocks would not be Waugh, but probably Punter instead.

 

In my book, I don't look for the "best" batters since that is subjective - just like the "best" films. Instead, akin to how films can be assessed on their objective technical merits (e.g., cinematography, editing), I too use these criteria for determining my list of batters. These batters are therefore not necessarily the "best", whatever that term means to different people.

 

Case in point: Citizen Kane vs Jeanne Dielman. I rate the former more highly because of its greater technical brilliance, even if the latter is seen by film critics as the "better" film nowadays.

Lara and pontings era barely overlapped

 

Also it's easy to be "match winning" when you have other players including your teams openers already bullying the opposition bowlers and demotivating them even before you arrive on the crease, and goats like McGrath and Warner turning your ever knock into "match winning" ones.

 

Having the cushion of having many greatd in your team and having a great team is under rated in how much it contributes to so called match winning knocks 

[R!TTER]

There was no one like Akhtar in SMG's time, no one like Lee/Bond/Akram/Steyn/Waqar either! SMG would still be our best opening bat ever & a top 3 test opener as well but SRT was at least slightly above IMO, although SMG was also better in the last innings.

[New guy]

Just now, AKane said:

ok - but the fear of the injury was there while batting. A lot less to almost gone now.

 

Read this horror.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/rewind-when-charlie-griffith-put-nari-contractor-in-hospital-807661

 

Some excerpts....

 

Worrell warns Indians

Contractor recalled a cocktail party when Frank Worrell, the West Indies captain, warned him about what to expect. "As we had so many injuries before the game, [Frank] suggested that it would be better to get out than getting hit. Frank said Griffith was crude and impolite. He cited an example of him hitting an 18-year-old batsman on the head and he didn't even apologise to him, so Frank told us to take care."

 

The ball.

Wisden was clear. "Contractor did not duck into the ball. He got behind it to play at it. He probably wanted to fend it away towards short-leg, but could not judge the height to which it would fly, bent back from the waist in a desperate, split-second attempt to avoid it and was hit just above the right ear."

 

After

In the pavilion, Contractor changed his bloodied clothes but the bleeding continued and he was rushed to hospital.

Back in the middle the match continued. Soon after, Griffith hit Vijay Manjrekar in the nose and he too had to retire hurt.

 

At the hospital

At the hospital, Contractor's condition worsened. He was throwing up, and was losing movement on the left of his body.........

 

 

Would the helmet have helped Contractor/Manjrekar? I think so.

Yes of course and balls can misbehave and hit you no matter what. All I am saying is  that the fear made you play the short ball way better than if you didn't have fear.

 

 

 

Like when people drive 5 star rated cars rashly and get involved in more car crashes than those driving older unsafe cars. Same with batsmen getting hit on head increased after helmets were introduced 

 

Btw, as an example of resilience of Sachin at 16

 

 

 

 

 

Sachin Tendulkar recalled a never-heard-before story about Javed Miandad from the former's first tour to Pakistan.

 

 

 

. While Tendulkar braved the injury and continued to bat, he recalled Javed Miandad's comment towards him right after he was hit off the bouncer.

 

 

 

 

“My first tour of Pakistan, we were playing the fourth Test, we had drawn the first three. In the last innings of fourth Test, we were some 36/4 down. I got hit off a bouncer from Waqar Younis on my nose, I wasn't used to wearing a grill and my face was exposed to the blow. I broke my nose and I was bleeding,” Tendulkar began as he narrated the story in the event organised by Infosys.

 

 

"Naturally , the game stopped. Pakistan players realised that it was a crunc moment. Had I walked off, they would've been in a dominating position. They wanted to finish the game and they wanted to win. In that buzz around me, Javed Miandad -- we all know how he can be -- he was nudging me and said, 'Tera naak toot gaya hai, tere ko hospital jaana padega'.

 

“Imran tells him, ‘Javed leave him alone’. I continued batting. That was one moment where I felt that an injury like that can make or break you. I'm glad I did not walk to dressing room and I continued batting there. We drew the Test and we drew the series which meant a lot,” Tendulkar concluded.

 

This was Sachin at 16. The fear of injury can always be there but great batsmen adapt and play on 

[AKane]

Here is  Sunil Gavaskar getting out to a young Dennis Lillee rising ball to his face...... No helmet. He could not afford to be hit on the head - lost wicket.

 

 

[AKane]

14 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

There was no one like Akhtar in SMG's time, no one like Lee/Bond/Akram/Steyn/Waqar either!

Er there was a man called Jeff Thomson.

 

There were also Andy Roberts, Michael Holding, Dennis Lillee and John Snow.

 

 

Here is the scorecard of India in 2nd innings of Kingston 1976

 

India 2nd Innings 

Batting		R	B	4s	6s	SR
Sunil Gavaskar	c Julien b Holding	2	-	0	0	-
Dilip Vengsarkar	lbw b Jumadeen	21	-	-	0	-
Mohinder Amarnath	st †Murray b Jumadeen	60	-	7	3	-
Madan Lal	b Holding	8	-	-	0	-
Srinivas Venkataraghavan	b Holding	0	-	0	0	-
Syed Kirmani †	not out	0	-	0	0	-
Aunshuman Gaekwad	absent hurt	-	-	-	-	-
Gundappa Viswanath	absent hurt	-	-	-	-	-
Brijesh Patel	absent hurt	-	-	-	-	-
Bishan Bedi (c)	absent hurt	-	-	-	-	-
Bhagwath Chandrasekhar	absent hurt	-	-	-	-	-
Extras	(nb 6)	6
Total	26.2 Ov (RR: 3.68)	97

Edited December 31, 2024 by AKane

[vvvslaxman]

Laxman's average was poor because of over shuffling of his batting order during the 90s. After 2000s his average is over 50.

[Lord]

2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Laxman's average was poor because of over shuffling of his batting order during the 90s. After 2000s his average is over 50.

 

but it was also the era of flat decks

[vvvslaxman]

5 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

but it was also the era of flat decks

 

Most of the crucial runs on tough pitches, or tough days of the pitchs or tough scenarios. Remember clarke took 6 for 9. Laxman's contribution was immense. If anything flat decks were mostly enjoyed by other batsmen. Not Laxman.