Bumrah, Siraj are not built for 5 Test Match series

[goose]

5 hours ago, New guy said:

Will it? Its usually when you put down a race that people get offended, not when you praise them. So yeah, if an englishman said we(Indians) are inferior then people would be right to be offended, but if they said we are superior, no one would.

 

Common sense.

watch from 6.30 to 7.00

 

 

[express bowling]

On 7/25/2025 at 9:23 PM, putrevus said:

No five test series seperates pretenders like our Indian fast bowlers from acutal fast bowlers like Aussies or even England.

 

 

Let's not talk up the fitness of English fast bowlers or compare them with the super fit Aussie trio.

 

Archer missed 4 years of test cricket.

 

Wood misses way more tests than he plays. Is currently injured again.

 

Atkinson was talked up as fast but was averaging early 130s after a few tests. Is injured now.

 

Carse had a niggle in the 2nd test and has dropped pace and bounce. Is often struggling. 

 

Stokes keeps getting injured.

 

They don't have a set pace attack and keep rotating.

 

Their only 2 pacers, who have played for long,were not quick bowlers for most of their careers. They just played one format and bowled within themselves to carry on for long.

 

****  Most importantly, a significant percentage of their players were not even born in England. They are unable to find that many fit or talented Englishmen to play for them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2025 by express bowling

[Gollum]

11 hours ago, goose said:

ashwin :  you cannot compare the english physique to indians physiques. 

 

if an englishman said this it would be a racism scandal

Physically we aren't at the level of goras, must accept. Even when yo yo score tests were a thing, our benchmark was 16, top score was 18, for SENA teams benchmark itself was 19-20 and some of them would score 22+. There is a reason why even an average Kiwi fields as well as our greatest ever, Jadeja. Look at their running between the wickets, and ours. 

 

I myself used to deny these things earlier, but following the trajectory of many of our athletes, especially tennis players, hockey players, I can say we don't lack the skills and can compete with the best up to a certain age, but in senior circuits the difference in physical attributes is too much to overcome. People like Sreejesh, Sania Mirza have said this, and they hang out with the best of other countries. I have seem many tennis players practicing up close, and you can't even imagine the power those goras generate which will make your hair stand, their speed, stamina....similarly or higher ranked Indian tennis players (like Somdev, Nagal, Bhambri...our best) come nowhere close, they match them more because of their consistency, accuracy, IQ, skills, touch etc. Look at stats like grip strength, median Indian men are closer to Chinese women, forget whites and black. Recovery also, how can you compete with them with a protein deficient diet? It is no accident that despite our improving budgets and facilities we are still underperforming in Olympics so much. You give our hockey players the stamina and build/power of the goras and they would be invincible instead of battling for bronze, that is their level of skill. And they have maximized their fitness aspect, this is the best they can do. 

 

Even Indians who migrate abroad carry these bad lifestyles with them, hence under representation in sports despite having access to first world facilities and coaching. Saw many East Asians and Africans winning medals for US, UK, Aus in Paris, but not one desi face. Indians have some success in NCAA tennis but their ceiling is low, and don't succeed at the higher levels....again due to physical limits. In more physical sports like wrestling, swimming, athletics, zero representation. 

 

Our nutrition sucks, carb overloading and severe protein deficiency even for non-veg folks (should be declared national emergency), so many vitamin/mineral deficiencies including Vit D despite being in tropical zone. Our cuisine is unscientific, no fitness/outdoor culture. Why should cricketers be any different? Maybe now their lifestyles have improved but you can't outrun years of poor habits/lifetsyles. 

 

Government should have better policies to tackle our undernutrition (both macros and micros) issues, if addressed maybe results will show after a generation or two. But they are busy removing eggs from mid day meal schemes, banning meat for tribal people etc. 

Edited July 27, 2025 by Gollum

[Gollum]

Another thing is best athletes in Eng, Aus, RSA, NZ don't choose cricket. Their best go to football, rugby, AFL, tennis, boxing, MMA, cycling etc. And cricket in Eng is a very posh sport, played in some private schools...general public doesn't care (correct me if I am wrong @LordPrabhzy @Austin 3:!6). Not just football, 5-6 other sports have overtaken cricket since 2005 Ashes. 

 

No such restriction/bottleneck in a one sport country like India (only some pockets in Haryana/Punjab/NE where there is genuine craze and ambitions to excel in other sports. ) where most athletically inclined people want to become the next Sachin, MS, Kohli. Basically we play mid-tier/reject athlete goras in this sport. 

Edited July 27, 2025 by Gollum

[rollingstoned]

14 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Look at stats like grip strength, median Indian men are closer to Chinese women, forget whites and black.

Btw This piece of data was a high school study cherry picked & circulated by white nationalists - obviously- and lapped up by CCP bots and self loathing Indians online en masse - also obviously - which had a sample size of stroke patients. It's as reliable as the '82 iq' meme we keep seeing even till now without bothering to check who conducted that study and what it's parameters were. 

 

 

[Gollum]

3 minutes ago, rollingstoned said:

Btw This piece of data was a high school study cherry picked & circulated by white nationalists - obviously- and lapped up by CCP bots and self loathing Indians online en masse - also obviously - which had a sample size of stroke patients. It's as reliable as the '82 iq' meme we keep seeing even till now without bothering to check who conducted that study and what it's parameters were. 

I saw discussion about this in a tennis forum 15+ years back, not recently. And by normal fans. Maybe there are more studies. 

 

And 82 IQ is overselling us. I align closer with @Lone Wolf here, 75 IQ it is. 

Edited July 27, 2025 by Gollum

[rollingstoned]

1 minute ago, Gollum said:

I saw discussion about this in a tennis forum 15+ years back, not recently. And by normal fans. Maybe there are more studies. 

 

And 82 IQ is overselling us. I align closer with @Lone Wolf here, 75 IQ it is. 

Yea well it is bogus. Just like the IQ one.

Indians are still badly colonized mentally - even the ones who keep talking about it - so in the guise of 'self criticism' and 'inventory taking' they believe the worst things about themselves. Nothing new there. 

[Gollum]

8 minutes ago, rollingstoned said:

Yea well it is bogus. Just like the IQ one.

Indians are still badly colonized mentally - even the ones who keep talking about it - so in the guise of 'self criticism' and 'inventory taking' they believe the worst things about themselves. Nothing new there. 

Introspection, self-criticism doesn't mean mentally colonized. Give it back to the goras when they demean you or take advantage, put demand higher standards for oneself. Otherwise mediocrity will continue for many more generations. 

[goose]

43 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Physically we aren't at the level of goras, must accept. Even when yo yo score tests were a thing, our benchmark was 16, top score was 18, for SENA teams benchmark itself was 19-20 and some of them would score 22+. There is a reason why even an average Kiwi fields as well as our greatest ever, Jadeja. Look at their running between the wickets, and ours. 

 

I myself used to deny these things earlier, but following the trajectory of many of our athletes, especially tennis players, hockey players, I can say we don't lack the skills and can compete with the best up to a certain age, but in senior circuits the difference in physical attributes is too much to overcome. People like Sreejesh, Sania Mirza have said this, and they hang out with the best of other countries. I have seem many tennis players practicing up close, and you can't even imagine the power those goras generate which will make your hair stand, their speed, stamina....similarly or higher ranked Indian tennis players (like Somdev, Nagal, Bhambri...our best) come nowhere close, they match them more because of their consistency, accuracy, IQ, skills, touch etc. Look at stats like grip strength, median Indian men are closer to Chinese women, forget whites and black. Recovery also, how can you compete with them with a protein deficient diet? It is no accident that despite our improving budgets and facilities we are still underperforming in Olympics so much. You give our hockey players the stamina and build/power of the goras and they would be invincible instead of battling for bronze, that is their level of skill. And they have maximized their fitness aspect, this is the best they can do. 

 

Even Indians who migrate abroad carry these bad lifestyles with them, hence under representation in sports despite having access to first world facilities and coaching. Saw many East Asians and Africans winning medals for US, UK, Aus in Paris, but not one desi face. Indians have some success in NCAA tennis but their ceiling is low, and don't succeed at the higher levels....again due to physical limits. In more physical sports like wrestling, swimming, athletics, zero representation. 

 

Our nutrition sucks, carb overloading and severe protein deficiency even for non-veg folks (should be declared national emergency), so many vitamin/mineral deficiencies including Vit D despite being in tropical zone. Our cuisine is unscientific, no fitness/outdoor culture. Why should cricketers be any different? Maybe now their lifestyles have improved but you can't outrun years of poor habits/lifetsyles. 

 

Government should have better policies to tackle our undernutrition (both macros and micros) issues, if addressed maybe results will show after a generation or two. But they are busy removing eggs from mid day meal schemes, banning meat for tribal people etc. 

all that may be true but there is no excuse for all our seamers shardul, siraj, bumrah, kamboj having a belly in this test. there’s a cultural refusal to put the work in, stokes might be genetically superior but so is his work ethic. 

[Lone Wolf]

28 minutes ago, Gollum said:

I saw discussion about this in a tennis forum 15+ years back, not recently. And by normal fans. Maybe there are more studies. 

 

And 82 IQ is overselling us. I align closer with @Lone Wolf here, 75 IQ it is. 

Yep Dehatis

 

49 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Physically we aren't at the level of goras, must accept. Even when yo yo score tests were a thing, our benchmark was 16, top score was 18, for SENA teams benchmark itself was 19-20 and some of them would score 22+. There is a reason why even an average Kiwi fields as well as our greatest ever, Jadeja. Look at their running between the wickets, and ours. 

 

I myself used to deny these things earlier, but following the trajectory of many of our athletes, especially tennis players, hockey players, I can say we don't lack the skills and can compete with the best up to a certain age, but in senior circuits the difference in physical attributes is too much to overcome. People like Sreejesh, Sania Mirza have said this, and they hang out with the best of other countries. I have seem many tennis players practicing up close, and you can't even imagine the power those goras generate which will make your hair stand, their speed, stamina....similarly or higher ranked Indian tennis players (like Somdev, Nagal, Bhambri...our best) come nowhere close, they match them more because of their consistency, accuracy, IQ, skills, touch etc. Look at stats like grip strength, median Indian men are closer to Chinese women, forget whites and black. Recovery also, how can you compete with them with a protein deficient diet? It is no accident that despite our improving budgets and facilities we are still underperforming in Olympics so much. You give our hockey players the stamina and build/power of the goras and they would be invincible instead of battling for bronze, that is their level of skill. And they have maximized their fitness aspect, this is the best they can do. 

 

Even Indians who migrate abroad carry these bad lifestyles with them, hence under representation in sports despite having access to first world facilities and coaching. Saw many East Asians and Africans winning medals for US, UK, Aus in Paris, but not one desi face. Indians have some success in NCAA tennis but their ceiling is low, and don't succeed at the higher levels....again due to physical limits. In more physical sports like wrestling, swimming, athletics, zero representation. 

 

Our nutrition sucks, carb overloading and severe protein deficiency even for non-veg folks (should be declared national emergency), so many vitamin/mineral deficiencies including Vit D despite being in tropical zone. Our cuisine is unscientific, no fitness/outdoor culture. Why should cricketers be any different? Maybe now their lifestyles have improved but you can't outrun years of poor habits/lifetsyles. 

 

Government should have better policies to tackle our undernutrition (both macros and micros) issues, if addressed maybe results will show after a generation or two. But they are busy removing eggs from mid day meal schemes, banning meat for tribal people etc. 

Latest Government data shows scary numbers.  These are close to sub Saharan African numbers 

UP has gone absolute dogsh*t

 

Ministry of Child welfare announced it in Rajya Sabha few days back.

 

India needs a protein and nutrition revolution at war footing.  Religious rhetoric should be outright banned in the country and anyone preaching vegetarianism or forcing it upon people should be labelled along the lines of forced religious coercion.

 

In colder climates of the country  massive Pig farms regulated by Government should be set up. (JK/HP/ Sikkim UK) Mainstream Pork in the country.

 

 

Edited July 27, 2025 by Lone Wolf

[Gollum]

6 minutes ago, goose said:

all that may be true but there is no excuse for all our seamers shardul, siraj, bumrah, kamboj having a belly in this test. there’s a cultural refusal to put the work in, stokes might be genetically superior but so is his work ethic. 

I never talked about genetics in my post. It is because of unscientific nutritional habits, lack of outdoorsy activities, for generations....but mainly nutrition. Traditional Indian cuisine is tasty but makes no sense. 

 

'Cultural refusal to work', you are right. These pot bellies, skinny fat body types even among our sportsmen points to the fact that they are either not being guided properly or don't care. Maybe a dehati mindset of toiling hard in the gym/nets followed by one bucket biryani and a coke bottle. 

 

Chinese were like this 50-60 years ago, but have now closed the gap with the goras. You look at Chinese settled in US today, they are breaking into NFL, NBA, Olympic swim team, MMA etc, unlike Indians who can't crack varsity teams,.....so genetics isn't the reason.  

[rollingstoned]

34 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Introspection, self-criticism doesn't mean mentally colonized. Give it back to the goras when they demean you or take advantage, put demand higher standards for oneself. Otherwise mediocrity will continue for many more generations. 

This works both ways, anyone who is doing the opposite will say they're introspecting even in bad faith without realising it. Anyways not the point of this discussion. 

[goose]

4 minutes ago, Gollum said:

I never talked about genetics in my post. It is because of unscientific nutritional habits, lack of outdoorsy activities, for generations....but mainly nutrition. Traditional Indian cuisine is tasty but makes no sense. 

 

'Cultural refusal to work', you are right. These pot bellies, skinny fat body types even among our sportsmen points to the fact that they are either not being guided properly or don't care. Maybe a dehati mindset of toiling hard in the gym/nets followed by one bucket biryani and a coke bottle. 

 

Chinese were like this 50-60 years ago, but have now closed the gap with the goras. You look at Chinese settled in US today, they are breaking into NFL, NBA, Olympic swim team, MMA etc, unlike Indians who can't crack varsity teams,.....so genetics isn't the reason.  

yeh I wasn’t talking up genetics either, at least not in cricket . it isn’t clear what ash was referring to exactly in his youtube review above but quite a statement I thought!

[rollingstoned]

24 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Yep Dehatis

 

Latest Government data shows scary numbers.  These are close to sub Saharan African numbers 

UP has gone absolute dogsh*t

 

Ministry of Child welfare announced it in Rajya Sabha few days back.

 

India needs a protein and nutrition revolution at war footing.  Religious rhetoric should be outright banned in the country and anyone preaching vegetarianism or forcing it upon people should be labelled along the lines of forced religious coercion.

 

In colder climates of the country  massive Pig farms regulated by Government should be set up. (JK/HP/ Sikkim UK) Mainstream Pork in the country.

 

 

This is NFHS data from 2019-20, not the 2023-24 one. 

[putrevus]

14 hours ago, MechEng said:

 

Kya fek rahe ho? Have you watched a WSC game? I highly doubt so.

 

It was nothing more than an ODI version of IPL

Go read about it .there are highlights on internet. Feel free to search them.

WSC was not Odis alone , they played tests too.

Edited July 27, 2025 by putrevus

[putrevus]

3 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Let's not talk up the fitness of English fast bowlers or compare them with the super fit Aussie trio.

 

Archer missed 4 years of test cricket.

 

Wood misses way more tests than he plays. Is currently injured again.

 

Atkinson was talked up as fast but was averaging early 130s after a few tests. Is injured now.

 

Carse had a niggle in the 2nd test and has dropped pace and bounce. Is often struggling. 

 

Stokes keeps getting injured.

 

They don't have a set pace attack and keep rotating.

 

Their only 2 pacers, who have played for long,were not quick bowlers for most of their careers. They just played one format and bowled within themselves to carry on for long.

 

****  Most importantly, a significant percentage of their players were not even born in England. They are unable to find that many fit or talented Englishmen to play for them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was not talking about Current English bowlers alone. England is used to playing long test series . Broad   Anderson all have played long series.

 

Fast bowlers get injured  ,we are not talking about injuries.

 

You need endurance to withstand the rigors of five test series.

 

indian fast and seam bowlers don’t have it.

[MechEng]

3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I was not talking about Current English bowlers alone. England is used to playing long test series . Broad   Anderson all have played long series.

 

Fast bowlers get injured  ,we are not talking about injuries.

 

You need endurance to withstand the rigors of five test series.

 

indian fast and seam bowlers don’t have it.

 

Broad and Anderson quit limited overs cricket to focus on tests.

 

10 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Go read about it first before talking crap.there are highlights on internet. Feel free to search them.

WSC was not Odis alone , they played tests too.

 

I've seen it, standard vibes of a 90s ODI game, no "pinnacle of cricket" stuff.

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, MechEng said:

 

Broad and Anderson quit limited overs cricket to focus on tests.

 

 

I've seen it, standard vibes of a 90s ODI game, no "pinnacle of cricket" stuff.

They quit so?

 

good for you.

[MechEng]

4 hours ago, Gollum said:

WSC was the reason why WI became such a behemoth team. They were a talented bunch, but not professional. One day, got scolded in their dressing room by Packer, then their outlook changed completely. First team to take fitness, training seriously (Dennis Waight was personally hired by Packer to get them in shape, one of the most influential fitness trainers in modern sports)....laid a benchmark for modern cricket. Like how Navratilova changed women's tennis with her insane training regimen, after her initial struggles against Evert. Cricket owes a lot to Kerry Packer, for me he is the in top 5 most influential figures in the sport. 

 

Kerry Packer's sledge attack on the great West Indies cricket side changed the world of sport

 

One underrated aspect of WSC was the presence of RSA cricketers, then shunned by the sporting world. They were as good as the Windians but were limited to WSC, CC, domestics. The kind of psychological damage Barry Richards and G. Pollock did to Aussies in late 60s, Ian Chappell still has nightmares. Their strength can be gauged from the fact that despite 20 years ban, when they returned they were still top 3 team.

 

WSC had ODIs as well as tests. They called them supertests, that is where Barry Richards made his name and it became clear that he was even better than Viv and Greg Chappell (latter two also did great but Barry was another level). Also Garth Le Roux was a the best quick bowler, a better version of Joel Garner. Procter was miles ahead of other great ARs of his era, and Clive Rice was at least at the level of Botham and Kapil. Not just Imran or Viv, everyone who played WSC still talks about the standard of cricket there. Not tough to see why, you make 3 separate teams now having only the best of the best, Root playing with Bumrah, Head with Rabada etc., and increase prize pool up 10 times, watch them perform. 

 

Indian 'legends' benefitted a lot due to WSC, for 3 years we played and performed well against many understrength teams. And Gavaskar, Bedi, Chandra, Prasanna etc. did lot of hollow statpadding. Gavaskar was the luckiest one, made 4-5 100s in one Aus tour, and his amazing record against WI...of course when full strength Aus/WI were back, his numbers plummeted. 

 

 

ODIs still formed a very large percentage of WSC, and that was Kerry Packer's actual purpose too - to make the game more dynamic/fast paced.

 

Super tests were only played in the late 70s and discontinued in the 80s, so they are as good as being ignored. IPL too can be parallelly compared here which has given us the luxury to witness peak AB Devilliers and Steyn bowling at 156 kph in 2009, 2010 and 2011 seasons, not to forget that Bumrah was found through IPL and that our brief peak fast bowling period (2018-2021) should be attributed to high fitness standards brought by IPL too.

 

However, I do agree that there must have been a gulf in the mindset between Kerry Packer and our dhando franchise owners. While Kerry Packer must have prioritized high quality sport, our dhando franchise owners cared about $$...But still that doesn't make WSC as pinnacle of cricket. 

Edited July 27, 2025 by MechEng

[MechEng]

3 hours ago, Gollum said:

Physically we aren't at the level of goras, must accept. Even when yo yo score tests were a thing, our benchmark was 16, top score was 18, for SENA teams benchmark itself was 19-20 and some of them would score 22+. There is a reason why even an average Kiwi fields as well as our greatest ever, Jadeja. Look at their running between the wickets, and ours. 

 

I myself used to deny these things earlier, but following the trajectory of many of our athletes, especially tennis players, hockey players, I can say we don't lack the skills and can compete with the best up to a certain age, but in senior circuits the difference in physical attributes is too much to overcome. People like Sreejesh, Sania Mirza have said this, and they hang out with the best of other countries. I have seem many tennis players practicing up close, and you can't even imagine the power those goras generate which will make your hair stand, their speed, stamina....similarly or higher ranked Indian tennis players (like Somdev, Nagal, Bhambri...our best) come nowhere close, they match them more because of their consistency, accuracy, IQ, skills, touch etc. Look at stats like grip strength, median Indian men are closer to Chinese women, forget whites and black. Recovery also, how can you compete with them with a protein deficient diet? It is no accident that despite our improving budgets and facilities we are still underperforming in Olympics so much. You give our hockey players the stamina and build/power of the goras and they would be invincible instead of battling for bronze, that is their level of skill. And they have maximized their fitness aspect, this is the best they can do. 

 

Even Indians who migrate abroad carry these bad lifestyles with them, hence under representation in sports despite having access to first world facilities and coaching. Saw many East Asians and Africans winning medals for US, UK, Aus in Paris, but not one desi face. Indians have some success in NCAA tennis but their ceiling is low, and don't succeed at the higher levels....again due to physical limits. In more physical sports like wrestling, swimming, athletics, zero representation. 

 

Our nutrition sucks, carb overloading and severe protein deficiency even for non-veg folks (should be declared national emergency), so many vitamin/mineral deficiencies including Vit D despite being in tropical zone. Our cuisine is unscientific, no fitness/outdoor culture. Why should cricketers be any different? Maybe now their lifestyles have improved but you can't outrun years of poor habits/lifetsyles. 

 

Government should have better policies to tackle our undernutrition (both macros and micros) issues, if addressed maybe results will show after a generation or two. But they are busy removing eggs from mid day meal schemes, banning meat for tribal people etc. 

 

 

Lived for 9 years in the US and I agree with this completely. Maybe if I hadn't travelled enough, I would have found this offensive haha.

Edited July 27, 2025 by MechEng