Umesh Yadav the best India pacer: Rodney Hogg

[Cricketics]

1 minute ago, Vilander said:

I think the key is death bowling that made Ishant loose out and of course people must have scored when they realized he thought he was worth 2 crores to start with.

Yeah, he should realize he is 20lakh bowler. And then he might just get better. This whole episode will hopefully humble him.

[express bowling]

16 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

All bowlers ?

No, i said genuinely fast bowlers (who had stock ball at 144kph or so) are Andy Roberts, Mikey Holding, Colin Croft, Curtly Ambrose, Malcolm Marshall, Denis Lillee,Imran Khan, Ian Bishop, Courtney Walsh etc. from the 80s.

Bowlers like Kapil, Hadlee, Botham, Willis, Garner - they were in the 130-135 kph range for most of their careers. yes, at their peaks they all bowled 135-140ish range, but most of their wickets came after this peak and were picked in the 130-135 kph range.

 

 

What technology did you use, to teleport current day speed-guns to that era, and measure this 144 kph  stock ball   and this 130 k to 135 k range    ?      Revolutionary     

 

 

Edited February 22, 2017 by express bowling

[Muloghonto]

10 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

What technology did you use, to teleport current day speed-guns to that era, and measure this 144 kph  stock ball   and this 130 k to 135 k range    ?      Revolutionary     

 

 

Most of the ones i named, were tested in the WSC. 
Besides, as i said, i will go by what batsmen say, over what you say, in the era where bowling speeds were not documented.

It is common knowledge, for example,for those who played in the mid 70s to mid 80s period, that Michael Holding had the fastest stock ball of them all. Given that the company we talk about were tested in WSC to bowl 140Kph+, it'd mean Mikey Holding's stock ball was easily 145Kph, aka 90mph range : which makes sense, since Michael Holding had *THE* smoothest bowling action and he was 2 cuts from being in the Jamaican 400m olympics team as a youth-meaning he could gather pace with his run-up better than any bowler who existed.

 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Most of the ones i named, were tested in the WSC. 
Besides, as i said, i will go by what batsmen say, over what you say, in the era where bowling speeds were not documented.

 

Is it possible for batsmen to state specific speeds  ?   All they can say is X  is quicker than Y and Y is quicker than Z.  

 

Another issue is that batsmen cannot talk about release speeds and can only mention the speeds that they feel.  So, all this 90 mph is not valid from a batsman's perspective.

 

Also, in those days, cricketers did not quote speeds to denote quickness of pacers.  They used terms like " he is a yard quicker  or a couple of yards quicker than most bowlers."  " I could not see his ball most of the time "...   "  he was frighteningly quick " ....  "  His deliveries exploded off the pitch "  etc.  etc.

 

If you had actually played and watched cricket in the "80s.... you would know this.

 

WSC matches  were not test matches and we are talking about tests here.  Most pacers bowl  quicker in limited over matches.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2017 by express bowling

[Rightarmfast]

Mulo is hiding his tail. Funny enough, the britannica of fast bowling calls Courtney Walsh as genuinely quick !

[Vilander]

1 hour ago, MultiB48 said:

@Muloghonto wrote so many long posts on this thread but didnt answer me 

there there 

[Laaloo]

 

35 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

asked mulo  since he doesnt like umesh ,of all the tests umesh played in which ones he would have him replaced and with whom ,didnt respond

he is still typing.........

Edited February 22, 2017 by laaloo

[Vilander]

1 minute ago, laaloo said:

 

he is still typing.........

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, laaloo said:

 

he is still typing.........

 

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

so now it's down to 90 from 95

Keep your fantasy to yourself. I never said anyone bowled consistently 95mph stock balls-maybe Michael holding did, but beyond him, nobody bowls at that speed day in day out. 

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

Is it possible for batsmen to state specific speeds  ?   All they can say is X  is quicker than Y and Y is quicker than Z.  

 

Indeed. and several of the bowlers in the 70s got tested by radar. So we can compare X to Y and if we know how fast X is, we can figure out what speed Y was, approximately.

 

Quote

 

Another issue is that batsmen cannot talk about release speeds and can only mention the speeds that they feel.  So, all this 90 mph is not valid from a batsman's perspective.

Irrelevant. If i clock at 90mph via radar gun and i bowl at a batsman, then you bowl at a batsman, if the batsman says you are slower than me, it is not an invalid observation, neither is then calling you >90mph.

 

Quote

 

WSC matches  were not test matches and we are talking about tests here.  Most pacers bowl  quicker in limited over matches.

WSC matches were also 5 day matches. 

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, MultiB48 said:

asked mulo  since he doesnt like umesh ,of all the tests umesh played in which ones he would have him replaced and with whom ,didnt respond

Most probably Bhuvi. 
I'd rather have a tertiary pacer who can keep things tight, than a tertiary pacer who sprays it around and doesn't do jack in terms of picking up wickets.

 

[express bowling]

29 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Indeed. and several of the bowlers in the 70s got tested by radar. So we can compare X to Y and if we know how fast X is, we can figure out what speed Y was, approximately.

 

In those days, speeds were measured for only a few deliveries / overs during a handful of occasions.  No one had exact ideas of the general speeds of pacers.   Hence, assigning exact speeds to any bowler was not possible.  

 

 

Quote

 

Irrelevant. If i clock at 90mph via radar gun and i bowl at a batsman, then you bowl at a batsman, if the batsman says you are slower than me, it is not an invalid observation, neither is then calling you >90mph.

 

There are some pacers who lose less speed after pitching compared to others.... based on factors like how they grip the ball, whether the ball lands on the seam more often, whether overspin is imparted on the ball or underspin  etc.  Batsman feel this speed while playing the ball.  Like McGrath was deemed as much quicker by batsmen compared most other pacers who released the ball at his pace. The Australian batsmen were discussing this in great detail on TV.  

 

 There is also the issue of pitches, which changes from venue to venue and session to session in the same venue.   If some batsman plays a seamer on a quick pitch and another one on a slow pitch, he may form a wrong idea about the relative release speeds of these 2 pacers.

 

Hence, it is very difficult for batsmen to gauge release speeds of pacers if there are no ways to measure such speeds.

 

Quote

WSC matches were also 5 day matches. 

I am unaware of any regular measurement of speeds in the Kerry Packer matches.  They were done occasionally and for very  few deliveries.

Edited February 22, 2017 by express bowling

[Muloghonto]

14 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

In those days, speeds were measured for only a few deliveries / overs during a handful of occasions.  No one had exact ideas of the general speeds of pacers.   Hence, assigning exact speeds to any bowler was not possible.  

 

I don't see why measuring speeds in a handful of occasions is irrelevant. No one has exact ideas of the speed of most pacers, but we do have an exact idea of what Mikey Holding or Denis Lillee or Imran Khan could bowl at. And every other pacer, can be extrapolated to be faster/slower based on consensus of batsmen.
The process is not precise, but it is accurate.

 

Quote

 

 There is also the issue of pitches, which changes from venue to venue and session to session in the same venue.   If some batsman plays a seamer on a quick pitch and another one on a slow pitch, he may form a wrong idea about the relative release speeds of these 2 pacers.

 

Hence, it is very difficult for batsmen to gauge release speeds of pacers if there are no ways to measure such speeds.

 

Hence we go with what people like Gavaskar, Boycott, Majid Khan, Vengsarkar, etc. say and not what Collis King or Andy Ganteaume said. If you take the opinion of batsmen who have faced many of these bowlers on a vast variety of pitches, especially those who played county cricket and could face a bowler 8-9 matches every 2 years (i.e., county fixtures + test fixtures), they have an accurate, but imprecise read on who is faster than whom.

 

[speedheat]

Muloghonto kidar hai?? Warner castled by umesh this is what battering ram does

[gattaca]

Just now, speedheat said:

Muloghonto kidar hai?? Warner castled by umesh this is what battering ram does

That was ok ball. But mulo is always high be it history or cricket. 

[Mosher]

Umesh will keep on playing on flat pitches, if he keeps on providing vital breakthrough's like he did today. That's his role on these kind of pitches. That's what Kohli was also talking about in the match preview. Even if he takes a just 2-3 wickets he would have done his job. Spinners are expected to do the major damage here. Ofcourse the roles would be reversed when they tour overseas and Umesh will have to play a bigger role there.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Mosher

[kira]

Kohli missed a trick by over bowling spin in the first session and only giving 2 overs to umesh but hindsight is 20/20

[rkt.india]

2 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

such a lazy answer ,you wrote so many lines on this thread but when it comes to getting into the nitty gritties ...just a couple of lines ,even bhuvi had his probems as has ishant, shami etc ,i was expecting more from you

On these pitches, you need pace. A bowler who can take pitch out of the equation and give you vital breaks. 23 out of his 27 test, he played on complete flat tracks and the 4 tests that he played on helpful pitches, he took about 17-18 wickets.

[speedheat]

Most probably Bhuvi. 

I'd rather have a tertiary pacer who can keep things tight, than a tertiary pacer who sprays it around and doesn't do jack in terms of picking up wickets.

 

 

Muloghonto just watch umeshs wicket vs Australia of warner !!! I am not saying like he has done wonders; but look at the pitch its dead as a hell, no swing ,no seam turning right from ball one pure minefield graveyard for the bowlers and not forget burning 36 degree temp, despite of all the offsets umesh still strikes with a vital wicket of warner...what more you need to prove Rodney hoggs statement ??