Rahane's future

[raki05]

2 hours ago, zen said:

You are pointing out things that do not matter to the discussion. For e.g. you want to say that Dravid performance against ATG team with great bowlers overseas is not good, but you are ignoring that batting in top 3 particularly overseas is a challenge, and Sachin, who lines up to open in ODIs, conveniently bats at #4 in tests (probably not good enough to bat in the top order in tests). 

 Tendulkar was always a middle order batsmen, because of his aggresive batsmen style he has been offered opening slot and there is no need for him to bat at opener in Test. By the way this discussion was also not about Tendulkar.

[coffee_rules]

10 hours ago, raki05 said:

 Tendulkar was always a middle order batsmen, because of his aggresive batsmen style he has been offered opening slot and there is no need for him to bat at opener in Test. By the way this discussion was also not about Tendulkar.

No, of having better technique for aggression and his willingness to take risks when there are fielding restrictions. But often, he used to be non-striker as per Ganguly and didn't like to face.  TBF, in test cricket, more often he would often come in within first 10 overs until Openers and Dravid established past 2000s.

[zen]

10 hours ago, raki05 said:

 Tendulkar was always a middle order batsmen, because of his aggresive batsmen style he has been offered opening slot and there is no need for him to bat at opener in Test. By the way this discussion was also not about Tendulkar.

if it was easier to bat in the top order esp. overseas, he would have batted there too in tests. He is a batsman who looks for best slots to bat at and not necessarily take the challenge. 
 

And not surprisingly, Rahane foo prefers to open in ODIs and come down the order in tests  

 

 

[maniac]

1 minute ago, zen said:

if it was easier to bat in the top order esp. overseas, he would have batted there too in tests. He is a batsman who looks for best slots to bat at and not necessarily take the challenge. 
 

And not surprisingly, Rahane foo prefers to open in ODIs and come down the order in tests  

 

 

To be in that position which is to pick and chose at your own free will , you have to get to that stature and you get to that stature by being better than everyone

[zen]

1 minute ago, maniac said:

To be in that position which is to pick and chose at your own free will , you have to get to that stature and you get to that stature by being better than everyone

In terms of skills, I rate him as among the best. It is the output in relationship to skills and mental strength, which is mainly being discussed. 

 

Also he is being overhyped in India by people who don't do well in sports in general and found someone who can compete with the best overseas. So may feel obliged to blow his horn - a case of empty vessels may be. 

[zen]

Below is a comparison of Tendulkar and Kallis at point of entry:

 

 

Tendulkar is only able to compete with Kallis when he comes at a score of 100 or more. For any score less than 100, Kallis demolishes him

 

when the batsman walks in when the team score is 0-99:

 

• Kallis: rough avg 50 (at 0-20, avg 57)
• Tendulkar: rough avg 43 (at 0-20, avg 41 - so not surprised to see him shy away from batting in the top order) 

Edited July 21, 2020 by zen

[coffee_rules]

28 minutes ago, zen said:

Below is a comparison of Tendulkar and Kallis at point of entry:

 

 

Tendulkar is only able to compete with Kallis when he comes at a score of 100 or more. For any score less than 100, Kallis demolishes him

 

when the batsman walks in when the team score is 0-99:

 

• Kallis: rough avg 50 (at 0-20, avg 57)
• Tendulkar: rough avg 43 (at 0-20, avg 41 - so not surprised to see him shy away from batting in the top order) 

Kallis has 50 innings at 3, where he has scores like 189* and 153•, so averages is higher. Tendulkar once batted at 2 and mostly from 4,5, so the split in averages at each score is already flawed. Kallis has skills to bat at 3 and 4, and comparing him with somebody only batted at 4 is not a good comparison. Tendulkar didn’t bat earlier because he was not equipped for anything other than 4.  Where he was the most successful. The team has to play their best player at 4 to maximize their win percentage.

Edited July 21, 2020 by coffee_rules

[SK_IH]

On 7/20/2020 at 9:21 PM, Clarke said:

This Lara Tendulkar here is a distraction. 

 

Look at what the champ is saying : https://www.thestatesman.com/sports/want-make-comeback-odis-says-ajinkya-rahane-1502907887.html

 

Saala not good enough to play tests but somehow wants to make an odi comeback. 

 

Dunno how he lost his way, IPL or something else. 

IPL should not be an excuse. This guy was always an overrated batsman who camouflaged his batting failures with one-off performances overseas every tour. He is somehow hailed as one of the successors of the erstwhile fab four and is labelled as a mainstay of Indian middle order, without doing anything extraordinary. It was a travesty he was even considered for LOIs over players like Iyer, Pandey etc. 

However, the hillarious part is this guy is also the vice captain of Indian test team, giving you clear indication about a brain dead team management led by King Kohli.

[Suhaan]

Rahane has got huge backing,i only see him getting near to our odi side as we near WC 23,utter humiliation in front of home crowd will get him and kohli kicked out, by that time we will probably miss crucial years of Gill etc

[zen]

2 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Tendulkar didn’t bat earlier because he was not equipped for anything other than 4.  

Agree that he is probably not equipped to do well in the top order "relatively" speaking 

 

Quote

The team has to play their best player at 4 to maximize their win percentage.

Disagree as your top batsmen can play anywhere in top 4. If he is well equipped to play new ball well or mentally focused, he will most likely play in the top 3 unless the team has a more well suited #3. Once the reflexes slow down, the batsman could move down to 4 or 5. 

 

Some of the top batsmen in top 3 are below:

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
DG Bradman (AUS)	1930-1948	40	56	7	5078	334	103.63	20	10	5
KF Barrington (ENG)	1960-1967	29	44	7	2828	172	76.43	13	8	0
WR Hammond (ENG)	1928-1937	40	57	7	3755	336*	75.10	15	6	1
GA Headley (WI)	1930-1948	19	32	3	2064	270*	71.17	10	4	1
IVA Richards (WI)	1976-1986	47	63	2	3787	291	62.08	13	16	2
H Sutcliffe (ENG)	1924-1935	54	83	9	4522	194	61.10	16	23	2
BC Lara (WI)	1992-2006	44	68	4	3860	400*	60.31	9	14	4
L Hutton (ENG)	1937-1955	76	131	12	6721	364	56.47	19	31	5
JB Hobbs (ENG)	1908-1930	59	98	6	5153	211	56.01	14	27	4
RT Ponting (AUS)	1996-2011	107	187	18	9337	257	55.24	30	40	9
KC Sangakkara (SL)	2000-2015	109	190	15	9564	287	54.65	28	43	10
RB Simpson (AUS)	1960-1968	41	74	5	3739	311	54.18	8	20	5
DL Amiss (ENG)	1967-1977	40	70	8	3305	262*	53.30	11	9	6
Younis Khan (PAK)	2000-2014	46	78	4	3836	313	51.83	12	11	7
SM Katich (AUS)	2004-2010	36	66	4	3187	157	51.40	8	19	2
ER Dexter (ENG)	1959-1968	39	59	3	2868	205	51.21	6	17	3
B Mitchell (SA)	1929-1949	39	71	7	3250	189*	50.78	8	20	2
WM Woodfull (AUS)	1926-1934	27	45	4	2071	161	50.51	7	11	4
V Sehwag (INDIA)	2002-2013	92	160	4	7851	319	50.32	22	27	15
SM Gavaskar (INDIA)	1971-1987	119	203	12	9607	221	50.29	33	42	11
CA Pujara (INDIA)	2010-2020	70	115	7	5425	206*	50.23	18	21	7
IM Chappell (AUS)	1964-1980	55	94	7	4296	196	49.37	13	22	8
RB Kanhai (WI)	1957-1973	64	103	2	4979	256	49.29	13	21	6
R Dravid (INDIA)	1996-2012	133	225	20	10084	270	49.19	27	46	6
HM Amla (SA)	2006-2019	99	167	14	7504	311*	49.04	22	37	11
KS Williamson (NZ)	2011-2020	60	107	9	4806	242*	49.04	15	22	5

 

 

Top batsmen at 4:

 

iew overall figures [change view]

Primary team Australia  or Bangladesh  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies  or Zimbabwe

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Batting position equal to 4

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
SPD Smith (AUS)	2013-2020	35	56	7	3664	239	74.77	13	15	1
ED Weekes (WI)	1948-1958	37	57	4	3372	207	63.62	11	17	3
RG Pollock (SA)	1963-1970	23	37	4	2065	274	62.57	7	8	1
JH Kallis (SA)	1998-2013	104	162	21	8662	224	61.43	34	34	10
KF Barrington (ENG)	1960-1968	33	44	4	2367	256	59.17	7	12	1
GS Chappell (AUS)	1972-1984	54	86	13	4316	247*	59.12	15	19	6
PBH May (ENG)	1952-1961	37	49	8	2383	285*	58.12	7	12	3
V Kohli (INDIA)	2013-2020	60	98	6	5338	254*	58.02	21	13	7
NCL O'Neill (AUS)	1958-1965	28	41	6	2010	181	57.42	5	10	3
Mohammad Yousuf (PAK)	2000-2010	40	62	3	3344	223	56.67	11	12	4
Javed Miandad (PAK)	1976-1993	101	136	12	6792	280*	54.77	19	30	4
Inzamam-ul-Haq (PAK)	1995-2005	57	82	3	4264	329	53.97	12	21	7
DCS Compton (ENG)	1937-1955	57	86	7	4234	278	53.59	13	20	6
BC Lara (WI)	1990-2006	86	140	1	7099	277	51.07	22	30	11
WR Hammond (ENG)	1927-1947	44	66	7	2997	240	50.79	7	15	3
SR Tendulkar (INDIA)	1992-2013	164	256	22	11864	241*	50.70	36	55	10
AR Border (AUS)	1981-1992	61	88	13	3783	205	50.44	8	21	3
AD Nourse (SA)	1935-1951	31	53	5	2400	208	50.00	7	13	3

Edited July 21, 2020 by zen

[Gollum]

Rahane will start in WC 2023 guarantee, as will Dhawan. Neither KL nor Iyer will be in the XI. If Kohli has it his way we'll see a top 7 of

 

39 yo Dhawan 

37 yo Rohit

Chokohli

Rahane

40 yo Jadhav or Pandey

55 yo Dhoni or DK

Jaddu for his priceless 15 (20) cameos

 

Can imagine Rahane in mid innings break at Chinnaswamy saying that 240 is a winning total against defending champs, proud of his 50 (80).

 

Kick Kohli out or we are *ed. 

Edited July 21, 2020 by Gollum

[Gollum]

3 hours ago, SK_IH said:

IPL should not be an excuse. This guy was always an overrated batsman who camouflaged his batting failures with one-off performances overseas every tour. He is somehow hailed as one of the successors of the erstwhile fab four and is labelled as a mainstay of Indian middle order, without doing anything extraordinary. It was a travesty he was even considered for LOIs over players like Iyer, Pandey etc. 

However, the hillarious part is this guy is also the vice captain of Indian test team, giving you clear indication about a brain dead team management led by King Kohli.

I know this won't happen but we don't need Kohli in the ODI team. He may have GOAT stats but what has he done in WCs esp KOs. Then we have the baggage of his stupid captaincy tactics/strategy, negative influence on youngsters, lack of ambition, inability to hold his nerve. Without him we get our best possible skipper in Rohit and guys like Pant, KLR can play more freely...Rohit gets the best out of his players. And anyone in place of Kohli, say Gill can outdo his 1(7) type performances in big matches. He has played 3 WCs, twice at his peak and each time there were at least a dozen batsmen who outclassed him. 

[The Realist]

58 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Rahane will start in WC 2023 guarantee, as will Dhawan. Neither KL nor Iyer will be in the XI. If Kohli has it his way we'll see a top 7 of

 

39 yo Dhawan 

37 yo Rohit

Chokohli

Rahane

40 yo Jadhav or Pandey

55 yo Dhoni or DK

Jaddu for his priceless 15 (20) cameos

 

Can imagine Rahane in mid innings break at Chinnaswamy saying that 240 is a winning total against defending champs, proud of his 50 (80).

 

Kick Kohli out or we are *ed. 

Kohli likes his dad's army. I would rather play most of the below if picking guys in their 40s:

 

[SK_IH]

3 hours ago, Gollum said:

I know this won't happen but we don't need Kohli in the ODI team. He may have GOAT stats but what has he done in WCs esp KOs. Then we have the baggage of his stupid captaincy tactics/strategy, negative influence on youngsters, lack of ambition, inability to hold his nerve. Without him we get our best possible skipper in Rohit and guys like Pant, KLR can play more freely...Rohit gets the best out of his players. And anyone in place of Kohli, say Gill can outdo his 1(7) type performances in big matches. He has played 3 WCs, twice at his peak and each time there were at least a dozen batsmen who outclassed him. 

I agree with you about the pedestrian performances of Kohli when it matters the most and it's for everyone to see. But he is needed in the team but not as captain. Remove him from the leadership spot and most of his damaging influence is gone. It sucks to have a loser lead your side, who has a long history of not winning any worthy trophy.

[rkt.india]

On 7/20/2020 at 1:47 AM, zen said:

That is fine as by and large, wins in tests is a team effort. If you have a strong team even a random 50 will be for a winning cause. If I have to consider individual batting performance that drove wins, it would be  Laxman's 281, Lara's 153, Sehwag's 300, Pujara's performance in Aus, etc. .... Here, I am focused on how the individual is able to rack up a big series for his team and not be satisfied with for e.g. 1 100 = job done type of attitude.  

Laxman ka 281 sabko yaad hai, Dravid ka 180 sab bhool jate hain.

[raki05]

11 hours ago, zen said:

if it was easier to bat in the top order esp. overseas, he would have batted there too in tests. He is a batsman who looks for best slots to bat at and not necessarily take the challenge. 
 

And not surprisingly, Rahane foo prefers to open in ODIs and come down the order in tests  

 

 

Why would he bat there when in his entire first class career and in international career to start of with batted at 4. Till 99 he mostly use to get in during fist 15-20 over itself. Where  VIV batted, Where Steve wagh batted, Where did Lara bat. In test no body changes their position especially ATG players and they typically bat at position where they are more comfortable or where they have started batting durin their first class.

Edited July 22, 2020 by raki05

[raki05]

11 hours ago, zen said:

Below is a comparison of Tendulkar and Kallis at point of entry:

 

 

Tendulkar is only able to compete with Kallis when he comes at a score of 100 or more. For any score less than 100, Kallis demolishes him

 

when the batsman walks in when the team score is 0-99:

 

• Kallis: rough avg 50 (at 0-20, avg 57)
• Tendulkar: rough avg 43 (at 0-20, avg 41 - so not surprised to see him shy away from batting in the top order) 

Manju is born jealous person. He jealous anything near perfect and has habit of questioning successful people. Players like Jadega and Pollard are more successful than him and that's why they thrashed him while he tried to troll them.

[Clarke]

12 hours ago, SK_IH said:

IPL should not be an excuse. This guy was always an overrated batsman who camouflaged his batting failures with one-off performances overseas every tour. He is somehow hailed as one of the successors of the erstwhile fab four and is labelled as a mainstay of Indian middle order, without doing anything extraordinary. It was a travesty he was even considered for LOIs over players like Iyer, Pandey etc. 

However, the hillarious part is this guy is also the vice captain of Indian test team, giving you clear indication about a brain dead team management led by King Kohli.

Not looking for excuse, rather the reason behind going from run of the mill years back to below par in the recent years. Maybe his run of the mill was essentially the best he could manage. Maybe he's not good enough to play all formats and hence struggles even more than earlier. Maybe he's not getting practice time after marriage 

[prudent_kreeda]

8 hours ago, The Realist said:

Kohli likes his dad's army. I would rather play most of the below if picking guys in their 40s:

 

 

9 hours ago, Gollum said:

Rahane will start in WC 2023 guarantee, as will Dhawan. Neither KL nor Iyer will be in the XI. If Kohli has it his way we'll see a top 7 of

 

39 yo Dhawan 

37 yo Rohit

Chokohli

Rahane

40 yo Jadhav or Pandey

55 yo Dhoni or DK

Jaddu for his priceless 15 (20) cameos

 

Can imagine Rahane in mid innings break at Chinnaswamy saying that 240 is a winning total against defending champs, proud of his 50 (80).

 

Kick Kohli out or we are *ed. 

       This won't happen  for sure . 

      However in best interest and better results -  Rohit should be short format captain and VK should be there only as a bat and may be better at #4         to steady  the middle order  

      I think if Vk fials in 2021 T20  to reach finals , Rohit should be made captain.

[zen]

7 hours ago, raki05 said:

Why would he bat there when in his entire first class career and in international career to start of with batted at 4. Till 99 he mostly use to get in during fist 15-20 over itself. Where  VIV batted, Where Steve wagh batted, Where did Lara bat. In test no body changes their position especially ATG players and they typically bat at position where they are more comfortable or where they have started batting durin their first 

The point is that to know where it is easier to bat follow guys like Tendulkar and Rahane. When he comes to bat when the score is 0-20, his avg is only 41. He is not good enough to bat in top 3 relative to many top ATG batsmen. 
 

2nd, Tendulkar has batted at various positions including at #3 in tests (for 1 test iirc) and did not do well. As mentioned, he has a low avg as well when he comes in early. As for guys like Lara and Richards, they have batted in the top order, averaging 60+ there. 
 

7 hours ago, raki05 said:

Manju is born jealous person. He jealous anything near perfect and has habit of questioning successful people. Players like Jadega and Pollard are more successful than him and that's why they thrashed him while he tried to troll them.

what or how Manju is though is irrelevant to the numbers being discussed where Tendulkar is usually only able to compete with likes of Kallis when he comes in at a score of 100 or more. 

Edited July 22, 2020 by zen