Sachin Tendulkar v Virat Kohli - who is better ODI batsman?

[Global.Baba]

Relevant to this thread. Stats just shown. Virat has better captaincy stats than Ponting and Cronje and slightly below Lloyd. Must be a better captain than them and Indian team must be as good as those 3 teams

 

Can be derived from this thread

[vvvslaxman]

8 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Relevant to this thread. Stats just shown. Virat has better captaincy stats than Ponting and Cronje and slightly below Lloyd. Must be a better captain than them and Indian team must be as good as those 3 teams

 

Can be derived from this thread

BCCI became a professional body long back. At this point anybody could captain an Indian side and lead to some wins. I still think in shorter formats Rohit is a better captain than Kohli. 

[mishra]

23 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Care to tell which batsman Africa is missing except ABDV? and Bumrah has already bowled to smith and got him out as well.

Missing meant quality of old era.

[mishra]

44 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

what different rules are you talking about? only two new ball rule is the main difference and two new ball rule only came in to play recently but big runs are being scored from far before that rule came into picture.

Here

     Span     Mat     Runs     HS     Bat Av     100     Wkts     BBI     Bowl Av     5     Ct     St     Ave Diff     
unfiltered     2008-2018     216     10199     183     59.64     38     4     1/15     166.25     0     103     0     -106.60     Profile
filtered     2008-2015     158     6537     183     51.47     22     4     1/15     147.25     0     74     0     -95.77    

 

Anual average

===================
year 2008         5     159     54     31.80     0     -     -     -     -     3     0     -     view innings
year 2009         10     325     107     54.16     1     0     -     -     0     4     0     -     view innings
year 2010         25     995     118     47.38     3     0     -     -     0     9     0     -     view innings
year 2011         34     1381     117     47.62     4     2     1/20     94.00     0     19     0     -46.37     view innings
year 2012         17     1026     183     68.40     5     0     -     -     0     14     0     -     view innings
year 2013         34     1268     115*     52.83     4     1     1/15     178.00     0     11     0     -125.16     view innings
year 2014         21     1054     139*     58.55     4     1     1/36     107.00     0     8     0     -48.44     view innings
year 2015         12     329     107     36.55     1     0     -     -     0     6     0     -     view innings

 

You can click the hig average year and easily see who the opposition is. in that 2000+ 50 plus average, Apart from all minnows only 2 centuries against australia which had Old Johnson as their premier bowler

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by mishra

[mishra]

BTW, I am not saying that Kohli hasn't achieved anything serious before two new ball era. The way he tackled Malinga was nothing but genious. Hence he will be regarded as great.

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, mishra said:

BTW, I am not saying that Kohli hasn't achieved anything serious before two new ball era. The way he tackled Malinga was nothing but genious. Hence he will be regarded as great.

Kohli averaged 50 plus even before two ball rule came in and he is averaging 70 plus after two new ball rule came in.

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, mishra said:

Missing meant quality of old era.

which old era are you talking about? ABDV and Morkel both retired this year. and apart from Kallis who himself wasnt a great ODI batsman, this is the same team that has been playing for last 10-12 years.  Kohli has played against all those players.

[rtmohanlal]

5 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Your context is purely based on assumptions. Assumptions like same bowlers from the 90s would replicate the same now. Sehwag, Jayasuriya retired long back. Do you see anyone like them batting in the initial overs these days? Tendulkar's batting peak didn't exactly coincide with the great ODI bowling era. These were top wicket takers. Given the match fixing, tampering, chucking  i can't even rate some of the performances in Sharjah. Best bowler from Pakistan against India was Aquib Javed. He would get his **** canned if he bowls now.

assumptions based on high probablity of events happening  based on 'what actually  happend  depending on the contexts' forms the very  core essence of these debates. Other wise there is no  point of even debating because  comparing plain stats will reach you no where.

For instance Bradman avg:ed 99.94 while most of the other great batsmen avg:es in the range 50-60. Based on this avg: difference, if it is concluded that Bradman was almost twice a better batsman to each and every other great batsman, then that verdict doesn't make any sense at all.

 

And I don't find any sense even in the data you filtered out because Sachin's peak was from  94 -2004 & here you have filtered out  data til 1999 only.Even here several bowlers have got brilliant stats especially w.r.t econ:, the most important parameter in one day bowling.

Coming back to  the matter we were  debating on, I don't  know how this '500' land mark got this much importance?? If any it is brilliant avg:s for me. Hence I am taking 60 avg: as cut off for deciding mammoth series performance.Based on that Kohli has till played 24 series.He avg:s 60+ in 9 of these 24. Sachin played 60 series  in which he scored 13534 runs @ 59.35. And he avg:ed 60+

in 31 of those 60.Add the factor of  'difference in general bowling quality they faced'. So as of now there is no comparison.

Edited November 1, 2018 by rtmohanlal

[Straight Drive]

Virat Kohli is better ODI batsman IMO.

[rkt.india]

46 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

 

in 31 of those 60.Add the factor of  'difference in general bowling quality they faced'. So as of now there is no comparison.

you are putting everything to context and assumption but leaving out the bowling quality.  why do you think those bowlers will have same stats today? take an example of Malinga who debuted in 2004 and ODI cricket started to change in mid 2000s. he averages close to 29 with Er 5.30.  Can we assume Malinga having similar stats in 1990s also?  Malinga is the best yorker bowler cricket has ever seen.  I will assume his average would be close to 20-22 with ER around 4 if he had debuted in 1990.  Samey way Josh Hazlewood has an ER of 4.72 in this era.  Can you imagine, how good he could be in those early to late 90s or even Mitch Starc with current ER under 5 and average 20.  These guys could have wreaked havoc in the 90s if we assume conditions for batting in the 90s were not as good as today and there were not many attacking batsmen playing.

[jf1gp_1]

Neither. Its me. Due to bcci ugly politics mumbai lobby etc etc never got to play for india else i would have 100 double hundreds across all formats along with 400 test wicket 200 catches and 100 stumping.

[vvvslaxman]

2 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

assumptions based on high probablity of events happening  based on 'what actually  happend  depending on the contexts' forms the very  core essence of these debates. Other wise there is no  point of even debating because  comparing plain stats will reach you no where.

For instance Bradman avg:ed 99.94 while most of the other great batsmen avg:es in the range 50-60. Based on this avg: difference, if it is concluded that Bradman was almost twice a better batsman to each and every other great batsman, then that verdict doesn't make any sense at all.

 

And I don't find any sense even in the data you filtered out because Sachin's peak was from  94 -2004 & here you have filtered out  data til 1999 only.Even here several bowlers have got brilliant stats especially w.r.t econ:, the most important parameter in one day bowling.

Coming back to  the matter we were  debating on, I don't  know how this '500' land mark got this much importance?? If any it is brilliant avg:s for me. Hence I am taking 60 avg: as cut off for deciding mammoth series performance.Based on that Kohli has till played 24 series.He avg:s 60+ in 9 of these 24. Sachin played 60 series  in which he scored 13534 runs @ 59.35. And he avg:ed 60+

in 31 of those 60.Add the factor of  'difference in general bowling quality they faced'. So as of now there is no comparison.

These are not all time great ODI bowlers. They got to bowl to rubbish batsmen. You could look at that way as well. This is why stats cannot be used to judge these things. If Tendulkar plays now he is going to average 75 or what? No way. At best 55.

[express bowling]

On Thursday, November 01, 2018 at 2:13 PM, mishra said:

Amala and ABDV has allmost retired, debut means nothing as they are still containing high average despite age catching in a era of batting feasts. I remember when Amala was around 28-29, People compared his to Sachin too. But now no body talks, because as soon as peak went, people forgot about comparison.

 

It means how riduculously cheap those boundries come which is driving factor for this discussion.

 

lack of wicket taking taking deliveries by changing the goalposts would automatically bring in more consitency when compared to players of past. This is exact same reason why English tail is so successfull. They have simply decoded this very basic flaw in modern odi cricket

 

We were comparing Kohli's whole ODI  career with his contemporary batters ... and seeing how he has fared.

 

He has outperformed all others significantly.   ABDV is the only one who has given tough competition.  If you want to leave him out too, it is up to you. Then there is no one left to compete.

 

Kohli is averaging 78 in the last 4 years with a SR of 97 ... and in this period his difference with other batters of this era has increased even further.

Edited November 2, 2018 by express bowling

[putrevus]

Sachin will not do better than Kohli for one simple fact, he used play lot of shots in air , which can always lead to dismissals.

 

Kohli's game is built on running singles and hitting ball along the ground.He was one of the first players to decode Malinga. He can play any fast bowler of any era as good as Sachin.

 

Don't make Sachin into Bradman, he is not  Bradman who averaged 99.96, Sachin avg is in low fifties in tests and mid forties in odis. 

 

He played whopping 461 odis and 200 tests so he is bound to have highest totals.Sehwag was far better player of spin than him and he could dismantle any spin bowler. 

Edited November 1, 2018 by putrevus

[Nikola]

3 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

We were comparing Kohli's whole ODI  career with his contemporary batters ... and seeing how he has fared.

 

He has outperformed all others significantly.   ABDV is the only one who has given tough competition.  If you want to leave him out too, it us up to you. Then there is no one left to compete.

 

Kohli is averaging 78 in the last 4 years with a SR of 97 ... and in this period his difference with other batters of this era has increased even further.

Last 4 Years stats in ODI's.

 

Yes in terms of avg kohli is ahead but if you count runs per inning then Kohli has 58.04 and Rohit has 57.60. Centuries, Strike Rate similar. In ODI's pitches are flat almost everywhere in last 4 years so conditions not debatable. Rohit isn't one of the great and still is doing good in ODI's so how come difference is increased?

[Nikola]

27 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Sachin will not do better than Kohli for one simple fact, he used play lot of shots in air , which can always lead to dismissals.

 

Kohli's game is built on running singles and hitting ball along the ground.He was one of the first players to decode Malinga. He can play any fast bowler of any era as good as Sachin.

 

Don't make Sachin into Bradman, he is not  Bradman who averaged 99.96, Sachin avg is in low fifties in tests and mid forties in odis. 

 

He played whopping 461 odis and 200 tests so he is bound to have highest totals.Sehwag was far better player of spin than him and he could dismantle any spin bowler. 

First to decode Malinga? in meaningless match? Malinga has been smacked many times in past and nor he is goat bowler. He is fine/good bowler also malinga had better of him during 2014 t20 worldcup final when it mattered the most.

 

Sachin is not bradman and everyone knows but there is thing called peak which sachin had for almost 20 years. Some batsman had higher peak but for less time (ponting) and sachin had very good peak for such long time which is obviously a big thing to achieve.

 

Sehwag? Yes he was great player of spin but why just compare them with spin playing abilities then? Compare with Pace, Bounce & Swing all.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Nikola

[rtmohanlal]

5 hours ago, rkt.india said:

you are putting everything to context and assumption but leaving out the bowling quality.  why do you think those bowlers will have same stats today? take an example of Malinga who debuted in 2004 and ODI cricket started to change in mid 2000s. he averages close to 29 with Er 5.30.  Can we assume Malinga having similar stats in 1990s also?  Malinga is the best yorker bowler cricket has ever seen.  I will assume his average would be close to 20-22 with ER around 4 if he had debuted in 1990.  Samey way Josh Hazlewood has an ER of 4.72 in this era.  Can you imagine, how good he could be in those early to late 90s or even Mitch Starc with current ER under 5 and average 20.  These guys could have wreaked havoc in the 90s if we assume conditions for batting in the 90s were not as good as today and there were not many attacking batsmen playing.

 

4 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

These are not all time great ODI bowlers. They got to bowl to rubbish batsmen. You could look at that way as well. This is why stats cannot be used to judge these things. If Tendulkar plays now he is going to average 75 or what? No way. At best 55.

Hope you at least realize the basic topic in hand w.r.t  which this discussion is going on. It is w.r.t Sachin vs Kohli. Whether a great bowler say  Pollock  from Sachin's era is better than say Starc from Kohli era or  vice versa is not the topic  here. That is altogether  another topic that needs  separate discussion depending on various parameter values of both these bowlers.The plain fact as i pointed already is that only  2 batsmen only from Sachin's era  namely Sachin & Bevan avg:ed >45  where as from Kohli era there are 17 batsmen avg:ing >45. Not only that, there  is a  considerably large  str: rate difference  in general between the batsmen from these 2 eras also.Of these even Bevan can be  said of as a completely odd batsman altogether in the sense that his methods in run making were so different. His game was built on placing in the gaps &  lightning running between the wkts and not on big hitting as his comparatively smaller str: suggests. Not only that Bevan has 34+ %age of not outs that inflates his avg: hugely.

So when the ratio is 1:17(avoiding Bevan because of him being a player with such different methods) in the no: of >45 avg:ing batsmen  combined with considerable difference in general  in str: rates between batsmen of these 2 generations, we can conclude as to how comparatively tougher it was batting in general in Sachin era when compared to Kohli era. Whether Pollock is a better bowler to Starc or vice  versa based on their stats & conditions they played/play in is a different topic altogether

 

[Trichromatic]

7 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

These are not all time great ODI bowlers. They got to bowl to rubbish batsmen. You could look at that way as well. This is why stats cannot be used to judge these things. If Tendulkar plays now he is going to average 75 or what? No way. At best 55.

55 with SR of 110+?

[Trichromatic]

Bowling quality in ODIs of 90s is overblown. It's wasn't better than modern day.

 

Bumrah, Stac and other ODI bowlers are as good as their counterparts from 90s.

 

What's different is:

1. 2 new balls

2. 0 swing in most of the matches

3. No old balls which will stop on bat and induce uppish shot

4. 0 reverse swing

5. No ball tampering

6. No turn in most of the matches

7. Lesser no of 150kph deliveries

 

Reverse those factors and any decent bowler will make life difficult for bowlers even today as we have seen. It's not frequent but it happens.

 

Modern day batsmen are better at

1. Handling pace. Batsmen of 90s were blown away with pace more often than modern bats.

2. Handling yorker or full length balls

3. Improvising

4. Fitness

5. Big shots - they have practiced and perfected this.

 

Modern day bowlers are better at

1. Handling flat pitch

2. Trying more pitch independent variations

 

Gap between top players and average ones has increased a lot now. That's why we see bowlers averaging in low 20s, and batsmen still averaging in 50s. That comes with very high averaging bowlers and lot low averaging batsman. I don't have numbers to back this up. But I am sure someone can dig this up.

 

Modern day low averaging bowlers won't be averaging below 15 in 90s, but lot of high averaging bowlers will have better avg. Similarly batsmen will have reduced average.

 

Batsmen of 90s won't be simply averaging 50+ in 2010s, just because their game wasn't suited for this type of play.

 

What was score of 170 in 90s is probably 150 in 2010s. But what was 280 in 1990s is 350 now.

 

Batsmen know that they can trust conditions and have built their strength according to that. They can choose to play shots on ground without worrying about ball stopping. They can play waiting game as they know that they can hit at will at later stages. This game was first started by Dhoni for India and other batsmen have just mastered it.

 

 

[putrevus]

3 hours ago, Nikola said:

First to decode Malinga? in meaningless match? Malinga has been smacked many times in past and nor he is goat bowler. He is fine/good bowler also malinga had better of him during 2014 t20 worldcup final when it mattered the most.

 

Sachin is not bradman and everyone knows but there is thing called peak which sachin had for almost 20 years. Some batsman had higher peak but for less time (ponting) and sachin had very good peak for such long time which is obviously a big thing to achieve.

 

Sehwag? Yes he was great player of spin but why just compare them with spin playing abilities then? Compare with Pace, Bounce & Swing all.

In meaningless match where Sachin also played.He is one of the best odi bowlers.In what world Sachin had peak for twenty years.Noone said Sachin was not a great player.He is one of the best odi  players but not numero uno.Kohli is better.

Edited November 1, 2018 by putrevus