Sachin Tendulkar v Virat Kohli - who is better ODI batsman?

[Muloghonto]

55 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

you can only compare stats to same bowlers both played. Ponting didnt polay Mcgrath and Warne, so no use including them.

No, because the comparison is on how they played with great bowlers against them.

Even against same bowlers, the pitches are different, so comparing stats against same bowlers mean nothing unless its played in the same venues as well, during the same time of the year. 
Lords for eg, early in the year is a frigging nightmare, with swing and the famous slope screwing every batsman over against bouncy bowlers who can bowl on good-length. Same pitch 4 months later in late August is flat as a pancake.

 

[rkt.india]

4 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

No, because the comparison is on how they played with great bowlers against them.

Even against same bowlers, the pitches are different, so comparing stats against same bowlers mean nothing unless its played in the same venues as well, during the same time of the year. 
Lords for eg, early in the year is a frigging nightmare, with swing and the famous slope screwing every batsman over against bouncy bowlers who can bowl on good-length. Same pitch 4 months later in late August is flat as a pancake.

 

not necessarily.  For example, India tour to England 2014.  SL toured first and the pitch was flat then came India and pitch was a green mamba with exaggerated movement.  Same this year, we played at Lords in August and it was one of most helpful Lords pitch I have ever seen.

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

not necessarily.  For example, India tour to England 2014.  SL toured first and the pitch was flat then came India and pitch was a green mamba with exaggerated movement.  Same this year, we played at Lords in August and it was one of most helpful Lords pitch I have ever seen.

Thats weird. Used to be the other way round, where the slope and the grass would assist early on, then as the county season wore on, it got flatter and flatter. Wonder what's changed.

 

[rkt.india]

15 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Thats weird. Used to be the other way round, where the slope and the grass would assist early on, then as the county season wore on, it got flatter and flatter. Wonder what's changed.

 

It all depends on conditions and how the pitch is prepared.  There is no guarantee that pitch will be helpful in May and flat in July-August.  In 2014, conditions were warm, so it turned very flat against SL and there was no moisture and grass was less.  Match was a draw.  To counter warm weather, they prepared an ultra-green pitch against us.

 

This was the lords 2014 pitch against us.  You could not discern the outfield from the pitch it was that green.

 

 

[mishra]

3 hours ago, rkt.india said:

you can only compare stats to same bowlers both played. Ponting didnt polay Mcgrath and Warne, so no use including them.

I think people just forget those days.If a team scored 250, Match was in bag. else teams scored 200 and would mostly defend it.

 

No team other than Aussies and then Africans were seen as scoring 250 runs.

 

Only other "teams" who could bat or outscore those runs were "Sachin and Schin alone".

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997–98_Coca-Cola_Cup

 

I remember the frustration of Waugh and Aussie side, to whom it was clear. No score is good enough against India unless you get Sachin out. He used simply outscore a score made by great batsmen against a mediocre bowling.

 

Playing against India was playing against Sachin.

[rkt.india]

The Kohli v Tendulkar comparison

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25070847/the-kohli-v-tendulkar-comparison

[rkt.india]

4 hours ago, mishra said:

I think people just forget those days.If a team scored 250, Match was in bag. else teams scored 200 and would mostly defend it.

 

No team other than Aussies and then Africans were seen as scoring 250 runs.

 

Only other "teams" who could bat or outscore those runs were "Sachin and Schin alone".

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997–98_Coca-Cola_Cup

 

I remember the frustration of Waugh and Aussie side, to whom it was clear. No score is good enough against India unless you get Sachin out. He used simply outscore a score made by great batsmen against a mediocre bowling.

 

Playing against India was playing against Sachin.

Other players were poor ODI players does not mean anything in this context.  That was a completely different era.  It is not like SRT only played in 90s.  He played ODIs till 2012. SRT  saw the transition of ODIs from 250 to 350 runs as well.  Also very difficult to compare two players as SRT was an opener and Kohli #3.

[velu]

6 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

The Kohli v Tendulkar comparison

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25070847/the-kohli-v-tendulkar-comparison

 

sachin ahead in relative SR ..

kohli ahead of sachin in relative runs scored per game 

 

[express bowling]

14 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

they all might be avg:ing  <25 as of now. But at the same times lots of batsmen are avg:in 50+ now  a days  too. In Sachin's era

while the great  bowlers avg:ed <25 ,  40+  avg:ing was the general trend for great batsmen. This implies one fact that we can't take <25 alone  as measure of greatness for today's bowlers. A lot of these bowlers's econ:s are very huge in the range of 5-6. This points to

one fact that  bowlers of today get cheap wkts while batsmen go for that extra run in today's  generally very  high scoring  one dayers. 

Which in turn means the bowling avg: alone cannot be taken as a criteria for greatness in today's high scoring days

 

When the batsmen are averaging higher then it becomes more difficult for the bowlers to average lower.

 

Economy rates of bowlers are bound to go up if rules make it easier for teams to reach higher team totals.

 

Some easy wickets in tbe beginning snd end have been available in ODIs for the last 25 to 30 years.

[mishra]

47 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Other players were poor ODI players does not mean anything in this context.  That was a completely different era.  It is not like SRT only played in 90s.  He played ODIs till 2012. SRT  saw the transition of ODIs from 250 to 350 runs as well.  Also very difficult to compare two players as SRT was an opener and Kohli #3.

IMO, If anything, that  250 line of nineties is now 350 line in 2018. If a team scored 250, opponent use to loose simply by scorecard pressure.

 

Just a series (Not sharjah or against windies)

 

Result:

1st Match, Rothmans Cup Triangular Series at Dunedin, Mar 1 1990

• 
  New Zealand

  246/6
• 
  India

  138 (32.1/47 ov, target 247)

   

   

  Result

  2nd Match, Rothmans Cup Triangular Series at Christchurch, Mar 3 1990

  • 
    Australia

    187/9
  • 
    India

    169 (45/50 ov)

  Australia won by 18 runs

   

  Result

  4th Match, Rothmans Cup Triangular Series at Wellington, Mar 6 1990

  • 
    India

    221
  • 
    New Zealand

    220 (48.5/49 ov, target 222)

  India won by 1 run

 

 

5th Match, Rothmans Cup Triangular Series at Hamilton, Mar 8 1990

• 
  India

  211/8
• 
  Australia

  212/3 (48/50 ov)

Australia won by 7 wickets (with 12 balls remaining)

 

Third match was washed out.

 

 

When Tendulkar started, Apart from Windies with Viv Greenidge Haynes, No one has potential to score over 250. And thats why Viv is recorded in history. Because he used to take windies over 250 line.

 

PS: Now a days number 3 gets to play more field restrictions against better hittable ball then a opener used to get
 

Edited October 25, 2018 by mishra

[mishra]

1 hour ago, velu said:

 

sachin ahead in relative SR ..

kohli ahead of sachin in relative runs scored per game 

 

Sachin had no competitor within the team (Just guessing opponents would have picked a lot of MoM). Kohli is doing his best as captain to get rid of any competetion (Other Indians are taking the MoM)

[rtmohanlal]

39 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

When the batsmen are averaging higher then it becomes more difficult for the bowlers to average lower.

 

Economy rates of bowlers are bound to go up if rules make it easier for teams to reach higher team totals.

 

Some easy wickets in tbe beginning snd end have been available in ODIs for the last 25 to 30 years.

yes that is exactly the reason as to why  bowling avg: alone cannot be taken as a measure of greatness for bowlers.  earlier , if it was a <25 avg: , then it was greatness for bowlers.  Now that alone cannot be. Econ: has to carry a lot of weightage too to determine great ness.

[putrevus]

13 minutes ago, mishra said:

Sachin had no competitor within the team (Just guessing opponents would have picked a lot of MoM). Kohli is doing his best as captain to get rid of any competetion (Other Indians are taking the MoM)

what kind on nonsense is that , how is Kohli getting riding of his competition and who are his so called competition.

 

Who said Sachin  did not have any competitor.I don't know why this myth has been created about Sachin.

[rtmohanlal]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

The Kohli v Tendulkar comparison

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/25070847/the-kohli-v-tendulkar-comparison

this was a great sensible analysis based on how fellow batsmen performed. Kohli marginally ahead as per this 'stats alone' criteria. Add  Sachin's  knock out records, the huge burden of expectations he had to face, the fact that Sachin could play some  huge inns against high quality bowlers,

his much better world cup record, last and foremost  the fact that ' the better bowling conditions in general , the chance of  even staying at the crease gets risky in much higher proportions' etc  still puts Sachin slightly ahead for me. Would wait  till word cups to have a rethinking

Edited October 25, 2018 by rtmohanlal

[mishra]

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

what kind on nonsense is that , how is Kohli getting riding of his competition and who are his so called competition.

 

Who said Sachin  did not have any competitor.I don't know why this myth has been created about Sachin.

A white chalk is only visble when background is black board. Kohli can only shine if he surrounds himself with mediocrity.

[VT87]

Mishra ji bilkul Pagla Gaye hai .this type of rabid behaviour just strong my belief . Sachin fans are worst and narcissistic 

[rkt.india]

8 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

this was a great sensible analysis based on how fellow batsmen performed. Kohli marginally ahead as per this. Add  Sachin's  knock out records, the huge burden of expectations he had to face, the fact that Sachin could play some  huge inns against high quality bowlers,

his much better world cup record etc still puts Sachin slightly ahead for me. Would wait  till word cups to have a rethinking

Did you watch Kohli's innings in SA?  No other Indian batsman has played that way in SA against SA ever.

[mishra]

Just now, VT87 said:

Mishra ji bilkul Pagla Gaye hai .this type of rabid behaviour just strong my belief . Sachin fans are worst and narcissistic 

I am not into Bhakti thing. Give a damn about state. Dont judge players by his bat only. There is lot more than bat involved in a team.

If it was all bat, then Ganguli and Dhoni wouldnt have been so successfull.

 

Despite 1.3 billion populkation and 10 years of IPL, all we see is a chance for Yuvi making comeback and Pant/Nair/Rahul bringing waterbottles and kind of Shaw who gets MoS in very first test series sit out while MSD, DK,Rahane,Rayudhu being part of 11.

 

Who the hell replaces Kumble with Shashtri.

On 400 pitch we score 320 and then we cuss our bowlers. We are struggling against Windies at home. We were comprehensively beaten by Morgans side in England.

 

Give me one thing rosy, And i will clap for side. When Indian crowd in England booed MSD, There was a reason. Legitimate reason.

When Indian crowd in England booed Kohli, then too, There was a reason. Legitimate reason.

[rtmohanlal]

19 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Did you watch Kohli's innings in SA?  No other Indian batsman has played that way in SA against SA ever.

you mean his 151 ???? yes... i  have....

that is why i strongly feels stats alone are not adequate  to reach conclusions when comparing 2 more of less equal calibre players.. 

 

BTW I have watched Sachin's 169 vs Donald ,Pollock  as well

 

 

Edited October 25, 2018 by rtmohanlal

[putrevus]

21 minutes ago, mishra said:

A white chalk is only visble when background is black board. Kohli can only shine if he surrounds himself with mediocrity.

I have heard everything now. good for you.