Whether Virat Kohli overtook Sachin as the test batsmen ??

[New guy]

24 minutes ago, velu said:

I created this thread to just annoy @New guy 

 

kohli is far below vvs , dada in tests imho 

I thought it was to annoy MTC? 

[New guy]

On 1/10/2025 at 2:59 AM, Adamant said:

 

 

I agree with the Inzi example, its quite clear to me that Sachin could never finish games like Kohli and once set prime Kohli was the greatest run chaser. I think kohli has Sachin beat both in pressure situations and pressure games.

Can you tell me one single opener from any team who finished matches regularly? In history of ODI cricket?

 

Why are you wanting openers to finish games? Unlike no 3 and below, who can finish games with around 100, 120, an opener needs to be 150, 175+ to finish innings. An opener needs to play entire 50 overs or near to finish. A no 3 and below needs around 40 overs or less. 

 

How many 150+ have been there in second innings in entire history of cricket? 

 

Inzi literally came at no 5 and later in more than half of his innings. Comparing him with an opener is mind blowing to me 

 

The fact that you wanted an opener to finish innings and compare his finishing with no 5 just shows the aura of Sachin, no other opener in history from any team was ever expected to finish innings. 

Edited January 11, 2025 by New guy

[Lord]

14 minutes ago, New guy said:

I thought it was to annoy MTC? 

 

[Stan AF]

On 1/10/2025 at 7:13 PM, vvvslaxman said:

ODis. NOt tests.

No

[Adamant]

12 hours ago, New guy said:

Can you tell me one single opener from any team who finished matches regularly? In history of ODI cricket?

 

Why are you wanting openers to finish games? Unlike no 3 and below, who can finish games with around 100, 120, an opener needs to be 150, 175+ to finish innings. An opener needs to play entire 50 overs or near to finish. A no 3 and below needs around 40 overs or less. 

 

How many 150+ have been there in second innings in entire history of cricket? 

 

Inzi literally came at no 5 and later in more than half of his innings. Comparing him with an opener is mind blowing to me 

 

The fact that you wanted an opener to finish innings and compare his finishing with no 5 just shows the aura of Sachin, no other opener in history from any team was ever expected to finish innings. 

Which other number three has been a finisher apart from Virat?

Finishers are usually lower order batsmen, Virat was the first number three who built the game and finished it too.

[Ultimate_Game]

1 hour ago, Adamant said:

Which other number three has been a finisher apart from Virat?

Finishers are usually lower order batsmen, Virat was the first number three who built the game and finished it too.

 

What's the point of "finishing" matches in bilaterals and averaging 60+ when you go missing in ODI WCs? 2015 WC SF, 2019 WC SF, 2017 CT Final, 2023 WC Final. 4 matches and 4 times he couldn't "finish" anything. I'm sure he would've "finished" those if they were meaningless bilaterals.

[New guy]

11 hours ago, Adamant said:

Which other number three has been a finisher apart from Virat?

Finishers are usually lower order batsmen, Virat was the first number three who built the game and finished it too.

Ponting, sangakara, kallis, Dravid, root, williamson, lara, viv richards,  all were no 3 who finished matches. There are many more. In fact ponting and virat have almost same number of not outs in victories (25 vs 27). 

 

No 3 finishing matches were a common thing from the 90s onwards. Also virat batted at no 4 in many of his "finishes". 

Edited January 12, 2025 by New guy

[R!TTER]

3 hours ago, Adamant said:

Which other number three has been a finisher apart from Virat?

GG - BRat actually learnt that art from him 

 

BRat batted at 4 most of the times when he finished those games, early in his career!

Edited January 12, 2025 by R!TTER

[Muloghonto]

10 hours ago, Adamant said:

Which other number three has been a finisher apart from Virat?

Finishers are usually lower order batsmen, Virat was the first number three who built the game and finished it too.

Viv. Lara. To name a few. Viv was a much better #3 than Kohli. 

[Adamant]

10 hours ago, New guy said:

Ponting, sangakara, kallis, Dravid, root, williamson, lara, viv richards,  all were no 3 who finished matches. There are many more. In fact ponting and virat have almost same number of not outs in victories (25 vs 27). 

 

No 3 finishing matches were a common thing from the 90s onwards. Also virat batted at no 4 in many of his "finishes". 

Lol, Kallis Dravid were not finishers, what are you on about.

 

Williamson being a finisher is one of the worst take, even after watching him apl these years how come your knowledge is so bad?

 

Virat has been batting at 3 since 2014, and has completed many chases, you are factually wrong.

 

No one ever called Sangakkara.

 

You are being such a liar that you even called Joe Root a finisher, I mean why not call Babar Azam a finisher too.

 

Not interested in further argument, you are lying through your teeth. If not for the rabid hate on this forum …, you will get your ass handed on any other forums if you call Dravid as a finisher.  Just don’t quote me anymore.

[bowl_out]

Found this hilarious 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/CricketShitpost/s/3WWGPqxqDM

 

 

[DeepSpace]

This has aged well!

[Suhaan]

11 hours ago, Adamant said:

Lol, Kallis Dravid were not finishers, what are you on about.

 

Williamson being a finisher is one of the worst take, even after watching him apl these years how come your knowledge is so bad?

 

Virat has been batting at 3 since 2014, and has completed many chases, you are factually wrong.

 

No one ever called Sangakkara.

 

You are being such a liar that you even called Joe Root a finisher, I mean why not call Babar Azam a finisher too.

 

Not interested in further argument, you are lying through your teeth. If not for the rabid hate on this forum …, you will get your ass handed on any other forums if you call Dravid as a finisher.  Just don’t quote me anymore.

Before Dhoni,Dravid was indeed the finisher

He finished many chases before

[sensible-indian]

On 1/10/2025 at 2:59 AM, Adamant said:

Not convinced with this.

 

First of all why are you only comparing peaks? A player can do well in a pressure match even when he is not in form. 

 

I don't count Sharjah cup, pepsi cola cup etc as big tournaments cos they weren't icc tourneys. 

 

You need to understand that just like in Sachin's case people have forgotten some fine knocks KOhli played in pressure games.

 

The semifinal knock vs SRL in ct 13, semi knock vs Bangladesh in ct 17, virtual QF vs SA in ct 17, he literally singlehandedly won us an asia cup in 2016. Combine this with all the KO matches he has won for us in the t20 formats. I don't see how Sachin has done better.

 

I agree with the Inzi example, its quite clear to me that Sachin could never finish games like Kohli and once set prime Kohli was the greatest run chaser. I think kohli has Sachin beat both in pressure situations and pressure games.

 

More than happy to compare whole careers.

 

Its just that the balance shifts towards Tendulkar more.

 

Take a step back and look at it dispassionately.

 

Yes, it's true we might be forgetting some good knocks by Kohli.

 

But look at the knocks you listed:

 

CT 2017 against SA, CT 2017 Bangladesh, CT 2013 SL 

 

In all cases, the opposition was bundled out for far lesser score.

 

We romped home.

 

These knocks are what you would call Ian Bell category knocks. Pile it on when team is on top but go missing when you need to BUCK the trend.

 

In fact, Kohli's knocks against SL and Pak in random tri series are 1000x more prestigious than these knocks.

 

Going by your yardsticks, we are actually discarding the GOAT knocks by Kohli while keeping these knocks that barely anyone even remember.

 

There are 3 ICC games where Kohli bucked the trend and fought back.

 

WC 2011 Finals - Valuable 30.

CT 2013 Finals - Valuable 40.

WC 2023 Finals - Valuable 40.

 

All 3 knocks are RESPECTABLE but here's the thing -

 

They were mere support roles, not main roles.

 

- Tendulkar played a FAR superior 1996 SF knock but he didn't have the team to utilize the start he gave. Kohli had Gambo and Dhoni to take India to the finish line.

 

- CT 2013 While that knock by him & Jaddu were useful, we were MASSIVELY below par. You know what won us the finals? Dhoni's captaincy, Ashwin & Jaddu's bowling and some good luck by Ishant - in THAT order. CT 2013 knock ended up on the winning side JUST cos the team was good. If Tendulkar had this luxury, his numbers would be sooo much better and I will prove it to you in the next point itself.

 

- Kohli's 2024 finals knock is very similar to Tendulkar's 50 odd against Aus in 2011 QF (Kohli's was MORE tougher due to pressure of finals tho). In this case, Tendulkar had the team to close out the deal while Kohli didn't. BOTH these knocks were strictly support role knocks. Valuable but not match winning.

 

This is the problem with Kohli.

 

- Sank in important games during his prime (unless you count 2-3 games against SL, SA & Bang where we were thrashing our opponents and would have won regardless of Kohli).

 

- Support role knocks in few ICC games

 

Kohli severely under-achieved compared to his ability in prime.

 

Tendulkar isn't without his flaws but dude is incredibly consistent in pressure games.

 

His performance in WC knockouts

 

1996 QF vs Pak - 30 odd

1996 SF vs SL - great knock against SL

2003 SF vs Kenya - 83 against Kenya

2003 F vs Aus - Failed

2011 QF vs Aus - 50 odd

2011 SF vs Pak - 80 odd

2011 F vs SL - Failed

 

This is ON top of a consistent run in WCs.

 

Highest run scorer in 1996 and 2003.

2nd highest run scorer in 2011 (missed by a whisker).

 

In CT, he was great in 1998 and 2000.

 

2002 - He barely got a chance to play coming down the order. We reached the final cos the team was performing. Failed against Zim which we won and failed against SA but was run out.

 

2006 and 2009 - he failed.

 

You compare peak vs peak...or overall career....Tendulkar has delivered the goods WAY more often than Kohli.

 

Kohli doesn't even have a single comparable knock in ICC knockouts for Tendulkar's 141 against Aus in 1998 CT and his 1996 SF knock.

 

Then there's magical Tendulkar knocks like 90 odd vs Aus in 1996 and 98 vs Pak in 2003 in WCs - Kohli has NO such knocks even in the non-knockouts of ICC tourney.

 

So in what world does Kohli pip Tendulkar in pressure games?

 

He doesn't.

 

If he did, I would be arguing for Kohli here.

 

Kohli has the mental edge but he didn't deliver in ODIs like he did in T20Is (where he is the undisputed GOAT).

Edited January 13, 2025 by sensible-indian

[vvvslaxman]

Biggest difference between Tendulkar and Kohli is Tendulkar did not pretend to "Contribute" even when he was not in form lol. He atleast did with ball ike he took out Hayden, Gilly, Warne in the famous Eden Gadens test with his bowling. Bowled some high pressure overs. He learnt swing, leg spin, off spin. He even practiced doosra. He rarely shelled catches like Kohli has been doing. He participated in domestic cricket unlike Kohli who feels it is beneath him. He respected the game way more than Kohli. No denying Tendulkar did indulge in statpadding towards the end of his career occasionally. But In the first 10 or 12  years he was purely unselfish. Kohli on the other hand after his peak is fully into statpadding  just enough to keep his brand alive.  Kohli never improved in any other areas of cricket. Even in the one area he is specialized at he showed zero improvement. Once he established his brand he completely gave no f*** to improvement as a cricketer. They say "he has passion" "he has drive". blah blah. Ya sure even you and i can show that in the nets. Those who have real passion would put themselves in real match situations by playing domestic games. 

[Suhaan]

12 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Biggest difference between Tendulkar and Kohli is Tendulkar did not pretend to "Contribute" even when he was not in form lol. He atleast did with ball ike he took out Hayden, Gilly, Warne in the famous Eden Gadens test with his bowling. Bowled some high pressure overs. He learnt swing, leg spin, off spin. He even practiced doosra. He rarely shelled catches like Kohli has been doing. He participated in domestic cricket unlike Kohli who feels it is beneath him. He respected the game way more than Kohli. No denying Tendulkar did indulge in statpadding towards the end of his career occasionally. But In the first 10 or 12  years he was purely unselfish. Kohli on the other hand after his peak is fully into statpadding  just enough to keep his brand alive.  Kohli never improved in any other areas of cricket. Even in the one area he is specialized at he showed zero improvement. Once he established his brand he completely gave no f*** to improvement as a cricketer. They say "he has passion" "he has drive". blah blah. Ya sure even you and i can show that in the nets. Those who have real passion would put themselves in real match situations by playing domestic games. 

If you simply go by skill or talent

Tendulkar pips Kohli infinite times,there is simply no comparison

[vvvslaxman]

16 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

If you simply go by skill or talent

Tendulkar pips Kohli infinite times,there is simply no comparison

 

From  a financial standpoint  Kohli may have equalled Sachin in a short span of time. But from a legacy perspective he tapered off massively. It is hardly a 13 year old career that has a 5 year slump.

[Adamant]

13 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

 

More than happy to compare whole careers.

 

Its just that the balance shifts towards Tendulkar more.

 

Take a step back and look at it dispassionately.

 

Yes, it's true we might be forgetting some good knocks by Kohli.

 

But look at the knocks you listed:

 

CT 2017 against SA, CT 2017 Bangladesh, CT 2013 SL 

 

In all cases, the opposition was bundled out for far lesser score.

 

We romped home.

 

These knocks are what you would call Ian Bell category knocks. Pile it on when team is on top but go missing when you need to BUCK the trend.

 

In fact, Kohli's knocks against SL and Pak in random tri series are 1000x more prestigious than these knocks.

 

Going by your yardsticks, we are actually discarding the GOAT knocks by Kohli while keeping these knocks that barely anyone even remember.

 

There are 3 ICC games where Kohli bucked the trend and fought back.

 

WC 2011 Finals - Valuable 30.

CT 2013 Finals - Valuable 40.

WC 2023 Finals - Valuable 40.

 

All 3 knocks are RESPECTABLE but here's the thing -

 

They were mere support roles, not main roles.

 

- Tendulkar played a FAR superior 1996 SF knock but he didn't have the team to utilize the start he gave. Kohli had Gambo and Dhoni to take India to the finish line.

 

- CT 2013 While that knock by him & Jaddu were useful, we were MASSIVELY below par. You know what won us the finals? Dhoni's captaincy, Ashwin & Jaddu's bowling and some good luck by Ishant - in THAT order. CT 2013 knock ended up on the winning side JUST cos the team was good. If Tendulkar had this luxury, his numbers would be sooo much better and I will prove it to you in the next point itself.

 

- Kohli's 2024 finals knock is very similar to Tendulkar's 50 odd against Aus in 2011 QF (Kohli's was MORE tougher due to pressure of finals tho). In this case, Tendulkar had the team to close out the deal while Kohli didn't. BOTH these knocks were strictly support role knocks. Valuable but not match winning.

 

This is the problem with Kohli.

 

- Sank in important games during his prime (unless you count 2-3 games against SL, SA & Bang where we were thrashing our opponents and would have won regardless of Kohli).

 

- Support role knocks in few ICC games

 

Kohli severely under-achieved compared to his ability in prime.

 

Tendulkar isn't without his flaws but dude is incredibly consistent in pressure games.

 

His performance in WC knockouts

 

1996 QF vs Pak - 30 odd

1996 SF vs SL - great knock against SL

2003 SF vs Kenya - 83 against Kenya

2003 F vs Aus - Failed

2011 QF vs Aus - 50 odd

2011 SF vs Pak - 80 odd

2011 F vs SL - Failed

 

This is ON top of a consistent run in WCs.

 

Highest run scorer in 1996 and 2003.

2nd highest run scorer in 2011 (missed by a whisker).

 

In CT, he was great in 1998 and 2000.

 

2002 - He barely got a chance to play coming down the order. We reached the final cos the team was performing. Failed against Zim which we won and failed against SA but was run out.

 

2006 and 2009 - he failed.

 

You compare peak vs peak...or overall career....Tendulkar has delivered the goods WAY more often than Kohli.

 

Kohli doesn't even have a single comparable knock in ICC knockouts for Tendulkar's 141 against Aus in 1998 CT and his 1996 SF knock.

 

Then there's magical Tendulkar knocks like 90 odd vs Aus in 1996 and 98 vs Pak in 2003 in WCs - Kohli has NO such knocks even in the non-knockouts of ICC tourney.

 

So in what world does Kohli pip Tendulkar in pressure games?

 

He doesn't.

 

If he did, I would be arguing for Kohli here.

 

Kohli has the mental edge but he didn't deliver in ODIs like he did in T20Is (where he is the undisputed GOAT).

 

I am trying my best to see your point here but still unable to find a proper proof of Tendulkar's big match temperament.

 

I would reply in two parts -

 

 

1996 QF vs Pak - 30 odd

1996 SF vs SL - great knock against SL

2003 SF vs Kenya - 83 against Kenya

2003 F vs Aus - Failed

2011 QF vs Aus - 50 odd

2011 SF vs Pak - 80 odd

2011 F vs SL - Failed

 

Now lets talk about this list - 

 

 

Why are you counting that 80 odd vs Pakistan as a good innings, getting dropped 4 times to end up with 80 doesn't count as a good innings in my view, apart from it he has a 83 vs Minnows Kenya where Ganguly scored a century, if you are not counting kOhlis innings vs SRL in CT semis or his innings vs Ban in ct 17 then I don't see why you are counting that innings vs Kenya.

 

31(59) odd runs in QF vs Pak, I would ignore that as a joke. Wasn't even the fourth best innings from India. Should be counted as a failure.

 

The only two good knocks he could come up with are : support knock of 50 vs Aus in 2011 QF and 65(88) vs SRL in semis of 96. While both these knocks are decent there is absolutely nothing spectacular about them, how and why do you think these two decent knocks put Sachin over Kohli in KOs of world cup. Kohli's 117(113) in semis of 2023 is vastly superior to both these knocks. I remember how people were praising Kane for that 69(73) in the same match, Kohli played better than him and was one of the reason we were stable throughout the innings. Similarly kohlis 35(49) was a decent knock, we would have been in dire straits if not for that knock, and then the 55(63) in 2023 finals.

Please convince me of how Sachins list of knocks in WC KO's is better, I am open to change my mind.

 

 

Also another point, even if you think Sachin's list is better, do you think the difference is so clear that you can be 100% sure of him being a better pressure match player?

 

[Adamant]

13 hours ago, Suhaan said:

If you simply go by skill or talent

Tendulkar pips Kohli infinite times,there is simply no comparison

That is definitely true, Sachin could play one ball to 6 different areas, Kohli never had that range.

 

I think Kohli has surpassed Sachin  in ODI's but still the skill set is way inferior, Kohli's temperament is the only thing that helped him reach the level of GOATS in Odis, skill wise he is inferior to the likes of Pietersen, Amla let alone Tendulkar.

[Adamant]

13 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Biggest difference between Tendulkar and Kohli is Tendulkar did not pretend to "Contribute" even when he was not in form lol. He atleast did with ball ike he took out Hayden, Gilly, Warne in the famous Eden Gadens test with his bowling. Bowled some high pressure overs. He learnt swing, leg spin, off spin. He even practiced doosra. He rarely shelled catches like Kohli has been doing. He participated in domestic cricket unlike Kohli who feels it is beneath him. He respected the game way more than Kohli. No denying Tendulkar did indulge in statpadding towards the end of his career occasionally. But In the first 10 or 12  years he was purely unselfish. Kohli on the other hand after his peak is fully into statpadding  just enough to keep his brand alive.  Kohli never improved in any other areas of cricket. Even in the one area he is specialized at he showed zero improvement. Once he established his brand he completely gave no f*** to improvement as a cricketer. They say "he has passion" "he has drive". blah blah. Ya sure even you and i can show that in the nets. Those who have real passion would put themselves in real match situations by playing domestic games. 

Bro its more about limited ability, believe me. 

 

He once scaled the heights of averaging 55 plus in tests after 80 odd tests, I have not seen any other batsman achieve that after considerable sample size and then sink to 46.

I don't think anyone in history of cricket managed that, would be surprised if anyone can come up with a name.

 

The problem is he isn't talented enough to average 55, how can a batsman who has no cut shot and punches average above 40 in all 4 countries (SENA, which he did at the end of 2018), I would say he changed his batting technique to improve his scoring on difficult tracks and he managed to do that. I think it was just hard work and dedication which helped him achieve that, after that he got married had his own life, couldn't commit fully to cricket, couldn't continue the grind and unlike the talented ATG players he couldn't score the same amount of runs because of limited ability. 

 

His focus and grind has gone down and he isn't getting back.