Ayodhya Verdict

[Deleted_User_1]

23 hours ago, MechEng said:

That means the oral tradition of our rishis, Aboriginal people and other tribes are baseless and the works of Western historians are unbiased.

Why? Because phirangis know our past better than our ancestors. See the psychological colonialism there?

Well you are putting words in my mouth. I never said that. I have deep respect for what Hindu philosophy brings to the table for spirituality along with Ayurveda and Yoga. I am a practitioner myself. Just because I said the there is no historical proof that Rama, Kirshna or Jesus existed does not mean I do not believe in a higher power or think Hinduism is garbage. All I said was I am not a big fan of organized religion (not just Hinduism), rather how it is practiced sometimes. Like there are many rules and dogma in Hinduism which have evolved to some meaningless practices I do not care for. Hindu spritituality does not lead to communal riots, but warped thinking out of organized religion does and it is not related just to Hinduism. You see it all over the world. I definitely do not believe that West is more enlightened, may be was in the medieval times when India was under the Muslim rule, but definitely not before ~1000 AD. Trust me, I live among white people, I have absolutely no inferiority complex or colonial hangover. Why should I?

[Alam_dar]

7 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Comparitive linguistic studies have proven that.

There is nothing in "Rigveda" (or any of the Hindu sacred texts) linguistically, which proves the existence of any of the cities of the Indus Valley Civilisation (although according to your claim Rigveda was also 5000 years old which makes it contemporary of Indus Valley civilisation). 

 

7 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Archeology is limited, as a lot of artifacts are destroyed over time.

We are not talking here about Archaeology. 
But we are talking here about "Rigveda" and all other Hindu sacred texts. Despite being contemporary of Indus Valley Civilisation, still they have absolutely no idea about any of the city of the Indus Valley Civilisation. 

Logically, it is only possible when we accept that Rigveda and all other Hindu sacred texts were written long long after the destruction of the Indus Valley Civilisation, and the authors of these religious texts had no more any information about those destructed and forgotten cities. 

 

7 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

 IVC is a colonial term, call it Sindhu-Saraswathi civilization. 

I don't find any problem in the IVC terminology personally.  There is no conspiracy in this term. 

 

And Saraswathi river lies far away from Indus River, and no modern city was situated anywhere near Saraswati River 5000 years ago. 

 

Therefore, it would be fair to call is Sindh Valley Civilisation, but I don't see Sindhu-Saraswathi Civilisation to be a fair terminology for this. 

[jf1gp_1]

16 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

Winning against the Muslims is one thing, but as a non-biased human being, let me remind it that there existed No Ram, and therefore no birthplace of Ram. 

Trying to score points against Hindus is one thing, but as a non-biased human being, let me remind you that there are accusations on Muhammad being a Pedophile 

 

Religion is not about facts its about sentiment and belief. You take those away from any religion and all that is left are books with hollow words. 

Edited November 12, 2019 by jf1gp_1

[Muloghonto]

9 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

There is nothing in "Rigveda" (or any of the Hindu sacred texts) linguistically, which proves the existence of any of the cities of the Indus Valley Civilisation (although according to your claim Rigveda was also 5000 years old which makes it contemporary of Indus Valley civilisation). 

There is everything in Rig Veda that proves its centrality to PRE INDUS VALLEY, aka Earliest stages of Indus Valley.

 

the Rig veda CLEARLY describes the region of ‘brahmavarta’ , which closely corresponds to NE Rajasthan and SW Haryana. Precisely where the OLDEST IVC sites are: Bhirrana. As well as Rakhigarhi and Kalibangan being the first mega-cities  of IVC. 

 

It is not not a coincidence that the most revered areas of the Rig Veda corresponds to the birthplace of IVC.

9 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

We are not talking here about Archaeology. 
But we are talking here about "Rigveda" and all other Hindu sacred texts. Despite being contemporary of Indus Valley Civilisation, still they have absolutely no idea about any of the city of the Indus Valley Civilisation. 

Except there is no proof that they are contemporary. We can tell from the Rig Vedas description of lands accurately when its minimum age is: which is 1900 BCE, when Saraswati started to fail. We cannot tell how earlier than that it was written. 

9 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

Logically, it is only possible when we accept that Rigveda and all other Hindu sacred texts were written long long after the destruction of the Indus Valley Civilisation, and the authors of these religious texts had no more any information about those destructed and forgotten cities. 

Or it came before the IVC. Also, Rig Veda does not have to show any familiarity with IVC to be from IVC. That is a nonsense press by AIT termites. Rigveda is a book of prayer and hymn. It’s like saying the Egyptian books of the dead or living ( Amun and Anubis) must mention Tanis or Thebes to be from the Old Kingdom period. Guess what, they do not. 

 

9 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

Therefore, it would be fair to call is Sindh Valley Civilisation, but I don't see Sindhu-Saraswathi Civilisation to be a fair terminology for this. 

Sindhi-Saraswati is the fair term because IVC started on the bank of Saraswati. That’s where the oldest site and oldest mega cities are.

[Alam_dar]

Not only Rigveda, but none of the Hindu Sacred Texts knew about IVC or even Dwarka:

 

Now look at the fairy tale of Dwarka City in Mahabharata. 

Mahabharat says that Dwarka had 900,000 royal palaces, all constructed with crystal and silver and decorated with emeralds. The city was connected by an elaborate system of boulevards, roads, market places, assembly houses and temples.

 

But the original city, which has been found under the water has neither any crystals, or silver or emeralds. What it has is this:

 

 

Therefore, it is totally wrong to give this underwater city the name of Dwarka.  

No Hindu god, or temple or any other sign of Hindu religion has been discovered from this underwater city. 

 

Now coming back to the Mahabharata or Ramayana (which Hindus believe to be written before 4000 years i.e. arrival of the Steppe people), again there is absolutely no mention of the cities of  IVC, although they are mentioning other cities in India in their stories. 

 

What to talk about the great ruined cities of IVC, there were new colonies built upon/near the ruined old cities (like Harappa city), but still no sacred Hindu Text mentioned these newly formed cities as they were insignificant. If these Hindu sacred texts were written 5000 years ago, then they should have not only mentioned these IVC cities, but should also mentioned their glory over the other parts/cities of India. 

 

I don't know about the present Indian side of IVC . Were those cities rebuilt upon/close upon the ruins of the former cities? Or any glorification of IVC cities is present in all these sacred Hindu texts? 

 

Rigveda is believed to be written by the authors, who lived in the Punjab area (i.e, very close to the Harappa city). Secondly, it is believed to be written after the destruction of IVC. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda

The Philological and linguistic evidence indicates that the bulk of the Rigveda Samhita was composed in the northwestern region (Punjab) of the Indian subcontinent, most likely between c. 1500 and 1200 BC,[13][14][15] although a wider approximation of c. 1700–1100 BC has also been given.[16][17]

 

All other sacred Hindu texts are also believed to be written far later than the arrival of Steppe people. 

[coffee_rules]

There is no proof of Steppe people entering India. They never left any linguistic or archeological trail. All evidence is manufactured to fit the theory. This troll from green ghetto reads wikipedia and peddles nonsense. Doesn't read or watch any videos thst disputes the western leftist narrative and simply trolls about Aryans and steppe pastors.  Rigveda is dated earlier or parallel to SSVC, it is not an encyclopedic text to mention all. There is civilizational continuity in SSVC in that region and elsewhere in India.  A lot of constructs of that civilizationa matches vedic culture.

Edited November 12, 2019 by coffee_rules

[Singh bling]

On 11/11/2019 at 8:00 PM, coffee_rules said:

Sorry it is not AskASikh day..but Why are some places have Sahib suffixes? Like Patna Sahib. Why are Sikhs going away from vedic roots? They used to give up sons for Hindus to fight and vice versa. What some of the western Punjab sects are following is a version of Islam.

Sahib is word used for respect. The Gurdwaras with historical significance has this word attached with them as mark of respect.

 

As far Sikhs outside India going away from Vedic roots , well there are different sects in Sikhism . The difference between Hindu's and Sikhs came in late 19th century. Some sects became quite anti hindu at that time some emerged. The sects that migrated first outside India were from them . That's why they had heavy influence over their. So large number Sikhs in west became anti Hindu.

[coffee_rules]

Well, The Hindu fight is not yet over. F'in Dhimmis everywhere. Rusting.

 

 

 

[vayuu1]

6 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Well, The Hindu fight is not yet over. F'in Dhimmis everywhere. Rusting.

 

 

 

Have a feeling kk Mohammad will be in the trust. 

[velu]

5 hours ago, vayuu1 said:

Have a feeling kk Mohammad will be in the trust. 

 

its ok .. tirupathi trust has christian member ( reddy ka relatives ).. 

[coffee_rules]

@vayuu1 @mishra

I have no hope for the future of Hindu causes in the SC. Sad to read this thread.

 

 

 

[Mariyam]

On 11/12/2019 at 1:37 PM, Alam_dar said:

Not only Rigveda, but none of the Hindu Sacred Texts knew about IVC or even Dwarka:

 

Now look at the fairy tale of Dwarka City in Mahabharata. 

Mahabharat says that Dwarka had 900,000 royal palaces, all constructed with crystal and silver and decorated with emeralds. The city was connected by an elaborate system of boulevards, roads, market places, assembly houses and temples.

 

But the original city, which has been found under the water has neither any crystals, or silver or emeralds. What it has is this:

 

 

bau thayi gyu

Now you are posting random vacation pics of people snorkelling at Maldives to support your theory about the IVC.

 

I am also going to try this style.

Monarchy is the best form of government. Queen of Sheeba was the greatest head of state ever.

 

[Mariyam]

On 11/11/2019 at 8:19 PM, someone said:

Interesting fact, it was Masjid-i Janmasthan before 1940s. So again, our own people/historians purposefully misrepresented and confused us with this new name of Babri Masjid....

Any reading material on this?

Who 'changed' the name of the masjid?

Edited November 13, 2019 by Mariyam

[Alam_dar]

6 hours ago, Mariyam said:

bau thayi gyu

Now you are posting random vacation pics of people snorkelling at Maldives to support your theory about the IVC.

 

I am sorry I perhaps didn't make it clear enough. This image is not from Maldives, but it is actually from the underwater city of  Dwarka. Here you could confirm it: https://couchmonk.wordpress.com/2018/04/26/this-ancient-indian-city-had-900000-royal-palaces/

 

And Dwarka is indeed again a prime example that Hindu texts like Mahabharata were written long after the arrival of Ayans. 

 

Although Hindus claim that Dwarka is 8000 years old, but in reality the Scientific Studies seems to be telling it to be 1500 BC old. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvārakā

Archaeological findings[edit source]

During 1983-1990, the Marine Archaeology Unit of India's National Institute of Oceanography (NIO) carried out underwater excavations at Dwarka and Bet Dwarka.^[13] According to S. R. Rao "The available archaeological evidence from onshore and offshore excavations confirms the existence of a city-state with a couple of satellite towns in 1500 B.C." He considered it reasonable to conclude that this submerged city is the Dvaraka as described in the Mahabharata.^[14]

 

So the timeline looks like this:

 

1. Aryans came about 4000 years ago

2. Dwarka sunk around 3500 years ago

3. Mahabharata was written long after it had already been sunk. And as the fantasy stories do (i.e. to bring so much glory to things as if they are from a fairy land), Mahabharata also did the same with this sunken city. 

 

According to the fantasy story of Mahabharata:

 

* Dvaraka boasted 900,000 royal palaces, all constructed with crystal and silver and splendorously decorated with huge emeralds. Inside these palaces, the furnishings were bedecked with gold and jewels.

* The City was filled with the sounds of birds and bees flying about the parks and pleasure gardens, while its lakes, crowded with blooming indivara, ambhoja, kahlara, kumuda, and utpala lotuses, resounded with the calls of swans and cranes.

* Nearby was the mountain range Raivataka (2.56.27), "the living place of the gods" (2.55.111).

* Its houses were arranged in lines (2.58.41) and the city had "high buildings" (2.58.50 and 54) "made in gold" (2.58.53), which "almost touched the sky" (2.58.50) and "could be seen everywhere like clouds" (2.58.48).

 

According to the description of Dwarka in Mahabharat, the Hindu Artists showed this city in their art in this way:

 

 

I find Mahabharata a beautiful fantasy story. But this is all. It is in no way a divine book  for me, with realities about any Hindu gods and their super natural powers. 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Alam_dar

[coffee_rules]

Dup

 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by coffee_rules

[coffee_rules]

Dup

Edited November 14, 2019 by coffee_rules

[coffee_rules]

Dup

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by coffee_rules

[coffee_rules]

Dup

 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by coffee_rules

[coffee_rules]

6 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

I am sorry I perhaps didn't make it clear enough. This image is not from Maldives, but it is actually from the underwater city of  Dwarka. Here you could confirm it: https://couchmonk.wordpress.com/2018/04/26/this-ancient-indian-city-had-900000-royal-palaces/

 

And Dwarka is indeed again a prime example that Hindu texts like Mahabharata were written long after the arrival of Ayans. 

 

Although Hindus claim that Dwarka is 8000 years old, but in reality the Scientific Studies seems to be telling it to be 1500 BC old. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvārakā

Archaeological findings[edit source]

During 1983-1990, the Marine Archaeology Unit of India's National Institute of Oceanography (NIO) carried out underwater excavations at Dwarka and Bet Dwarka.^[13] According to S. R. Rao "The available archaeological evidence from onshore and offshore excavations confirms the existence of a city-state with a couple of satellite towns in 1500 B.C." He considered it reasonable to conclude that this submerged city is the Dvaraka as described in the Mahabharata.^[14]

 

So the timeline looks like this:

 

1. Aryans came about 4000 years ago

2. Dwarka sunk around 3500 years ago

3. Mahabharata was written long after it had already been sunk. And as the fantasy stories do (i.e. to bring so much glory to things as if they are from a fairy land), Mahabharata also did the same with this sunken city. 

 

According to the fantasy story of Mahabharata:

 

* Dvaraka boasted 900,000 royal palaces, all constructed with crystal and silver and splendorously decorated with huge emeralds. Inside these palaces, the furnishings were bedecked with gold and jewels.

* The City was filled with the sounds of birds and bees flying about the parks and pleasure gardens, while its lakes, crowded with blooming indivara, ambhoja, kahlara, kumuda, and utpala lotuses, resounded with the calls of swans and cranes.

* Nearby was the mountain range Raivataka (2.56.27), "the living place of the gods" (2.55.111).

* Its houses were arranged in lines (2.58.41) and the city had "high buildings" (2.58.50 and 54) "made in gold" (2.58.53), which "almost touched the sky" (2.58.50) and "could be seen everywhere like clouds" (2.58.48).

 

According to the description of Dwarka in Mahabharat, the Hindu Artists showed this city in their art in this way:

 

 

I find Mahabharata a beautiful fantasy story. But this is all. It is in no way a divine book  for me, with realities about any Hindu gods and their super natural powers. 

 

 

Desert religion people think it is a fantasy story book. They are used to one book that tells all. Hinduism is a library. Mahabharata and Ramyana are poetry, verses, rasa (aesthetics), morals woven into an exagerated story of something that happened on similar lines. They are consice form of Vedas and Upanishads told in common stories that people who look up to and follow. BB Lal who excavated in cities where it is mentioned in the epics (Kurukshetra etc.) and have found artifacts that are dated to 1300 BCE. 

 

Again, Aryans never arrived to India. Vedic culture is indegenous to India, there are no trails of Vedic people leaving any trails from Steppe to Haryana.

 

https://rafalreyzer.com/the-underwater-ruins-of-dwarka/

 

http://veda.wikidot.com/dwaraka

 

Historicity of Dwarka

In the early eighties an important archaeological site was found in Bharat, at Dwaraka, the site of the legendary city of Shri Krishna. Dwaraka was submerged by the sea right after the death of Shri Krishna. This inscription refers to Dwaraka as the capital of the western coast of Saurashtra and still more important, states that Shri Krishna lived here. The discovery of the legendary city of Dwaraka which is said to have been founded by Shri Krishna, is an important landmark in the history of Bharat. It has set to rest the doubts expressed by historians about the historicity of Mahabharata and the very existence of Dwaraka city. It has greatly narrowed the gap in Indian history by establishing the continuity of the Indian civilization from the Vedic Age to the present day.

Now fresh archeological evidence has surfaced proving beyond reasonable doubt the existence of the historic city of Dwaraka, and throwing light on the lives of people who inhabited the "City of Gold". This is hallowed ground-the city over which Krishna ruled. Gujarat dates back to pre-historic times, here exists one of the three largest dinosaur sites of the world that include clutches of eggs that date back 65 million years. But interest in Jurassic Park notwithstanding, for devout Indians, Gujarat is closely linked with one of India’s most enduring avathara — Krishna.

Excavations at Dwaraka that began in 1981 helped add credence to the legend of Krishna and the Mahabharat war as well as provide ample evidence of the advanced societies that lived in these areas-the Harappan settlements that represent some of the world’s greatest civilization. One of the first outposts to be excavated, soon after independence was in the Ahmedabad district. Evidence suggests that these settlers brought with them a highly developed culture that was rich not just in the arts but in the sciences as well. The emphasis was on a well-organised society based on trade that was conducted through their ports.

Dwaraka, for example was a well-planned township, its harbour consisted of a rocky ridge modified into an anchorage for berthing vessels, a unique feature in harbour technology that was in use even before the Phoenicians attempted this in the Mediterranean sea much later. The man-made holes in the ridge and the large stone anchors lying there suggest that large ships used to be anchored there while smaller boats carried men and cargo up the river.

The foundation of boulders on which the city's walls were erected proves that the land was reclaimed from the sea about 3,600 years ago. The Mahabharata has references to such reclamation activity at Dwaraka. Seven islands mentioned in it have also been discovered submerged in the Arabian Sea. Pottery, which has been established by thermoluminiscence tests to be 3,528 years old and carrying inscriptions in late Indus Valley civilization script; iron stakes and triangular three-holed anchors discovered here find mention in the Mahabharata. Among the many objects unearthed that further prove Dwaraka's connection with the epic is a seal engraved with the image of a three-headed animal. The epic mentions that such a seal was given to the citizens of Dwaraka as a proof of identity when the city was threatened by King Jarasandha of the powerful Magadh kingdom. Dr Rao, of the National Institute of Oceanography that was instrumental in conducting much of the underwater excavations, says:

"The findings in Dwaraka and archeological evidence found compatible with the Mahabharata tradition remove the lingering doubt about the historicity of the Mahabharata," … "We would say Krishna definitely existed."

These evidences prove beyond doubt that Kusasthali, a pre-Dwaraka settlement did exist in Bet, Dwaraka. Archeologists have concluded that this early settlement of Kusasthali was first occupied and fortified during the Mahabharata period and was named Dwaraka. After realizing that the narrow terraces were not sufficient for the increasing population, a new town was built a few years later at the mouth of the river Gomati. This planned port city was also called Dwaraka, further adding credence to the fact that the Mahabharata was not a myth but an important source of history.

 

10. The layers of temples underneath the current city of Dwarka

 

One of the main players involved in an effort to solve the mystery of the ancient city was Dr. S.R. Rao. He and his team undertook an extensive search of this city along the coast from 1984-88 and finally succeeded in finding the submerged city off the Gujarat coast.

 

 

Between 1983 and 1990, the well-fortified township of Dwaraka was discovered, extending more than half a mile from the shore. In his work, The Lost City of Dwaraka, Dr. Rao has given scientific details of these discoveries and artifacts.

 

Here is a great documentary about Dwarka, featuring Dr. S.R. Rao. In it you will find more about the ruins buried underneath the city:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF8aMBGLzlM

In this documentary, at around 14:45 you will see where exactly Dr. S.R. Rao was searching for underwater ruins of Dwarka:

 

 

 

 

 

Dr. Rao actually said that they planned to explore a site around 10km further to the northwest of the actual site. Unfortunately, he encountered problems with funding, and died in 2013 which practically stopped the excavations.

 

11. The historicity of Dwarka

 

 

Dr. Narahari Achar checked the references to the lunar eclipses and asteroids mentioned in Mahabharata – especially with the connection to the war. By using his special software, he came to a conclusion that the war started on November 6th, 3126 BCE.

 

Some archeologists think that it’s around that time that Krishna’s Dwarka existed. 3000 BC the sea levels were 10 m lower so that would explain the submergence of the city.

 

 

12. The artifacts found at the Dwarka site

 

The pottery they’ve found (and analyzed through thermoluminescence) was dated at 3520 BC for period one, and 2000 BC for period 2. That’s another piece of evidence which corroborates the story from Mahabharata.

 

When you look at the underwater photos, you can see a couple of stones and walls. But if the city existed 5000 years ago, then the remains must be buried deep under the sediment and sand. Additionally, they don’t know if it’s actually the main spot because it looks more like a port, not a city.

 

13. The stone anchors around the city of Dwarka

 

 

Marine archeologists found stone anchors similar to ones used in Syria and Cyprus (1400 – 1200 BC) and it’s been proven that the trade existed between these lands as far back as 2000 BC. The other anchors they’ve found date as far back as 2500 BC.

 

Here’s an excerpt from an article about the anchors:

A large number of stone anchors were discovered in a water depth of 10–14 m off Dwarka during the 1998–1999 seasons. The seabed near the anchors consists of a ledge with an average height of 1 m. Several anchors were found trapped between the rocks suggesting an anchorage.

 

Twenty stone anchors of three types were located in a submerged channel on the southern side of the site. The grapnel type of anchor is associated with Indo-Arab trade between the 8th and 16th centuries AD. The triangular or composite anchors have a date ranging from 2500 BC to the Modern Period. Therefore, the dating of these anchors at Dwarka is a matter of concern and is discussed.

So if the actual Dwaraka existed 3200 years BCE, then maybe the site 9 km from shore is just a prelude – a younger site or a port. It would be good to scan how exactly the sea level looked at around 3000BC to check what lands were available at that time and search there.

Edited November 14, 2019 by coffee_rules
I can play with colors too! Yippee! :yay:

[Singh bling]

17 hours ago, Under_Score said:

Really? do you know which sect in Sikhism promoted this 'Anti-Hindu' teachings? I have talked to people who used to be very patriotic for India until the Kangress did the 1984 clusterfcuk. In fact many clean shaven Sikhs started maintaining Sikhi roop again since they had this feeling that a section of Hindus had tried to wipe out the entire Sikh community in Delhi.

Damdami Taksal whose head Bhindrawale himself was and Akhand kirtani jatha had lots of influence outside India . Both sampradaye's are quite anti hindu

 

Sikh Hindu history did not start with 1984 neither it ended with it. 1984 is no excuse of being anti India or Hindu. Let me ask you what Sikhs outside India had done for 1984 victims. It is H.S Phoolka type of people which are fighting for them. Khalistani Sikhs outside India effectively used 1984 only to spread hatred against India or Hindu's. .