India has no chance of scoring 350 plus

[wanted_desi]

4 hours ago, chewy said:

At some point India will need to bring an explosive Opener, some one like Roy or Munro

Which means sacrifice the 44-45 average for 30-35 average but SR of 105 - 110 

It will be Shaw. Thats why i would like to see him opening after WC2019. Dhawan/Rohit will have to move to middle order. 

[Number]

Some posts in this thread 

Rohit starting slow in first 10 overs is the problem but Dhoni starting slow in 45th over is not. 

[putrevus]

3 hours ago, sandeep said:

Rayudu wasn't super guility yesterday. Only in his last 10-15 deliveries he was clearly being selfish.  

 

Primary responsibility for the lower than ideal score is on the much glorified openers.

You see a very different game than most of us.

[vvvslaxman]

I understand why Indian top order playing semi conservatively. Any top order collapse would mean India will end up with a sub par score. When you see Dhoni blocking 5 bals in 45th over imagine what he would do between 15th and 40th over. He will swallow all the balls and say "Pitch was hard to bat on". SO i am okay with how our top order goes. No need to throw kitchen sink in the first 10 overs. Until these middle order clowns leave the scene the top order should just adopt the current approach.

[putrevus]

3 hours ago, jusarrived said:

My main issue is with Rohit anyway . Yes he’s easily the cleanest hitter in the team , but if you want to use that he has to play down the order . If his utility is only one in 20 games on flat pitches where he will play through the innings then it’s kind a pointless cos he’s hurting the team more often than helping . There is a reason we lose quite a lot of games even when he scores hundreds . It’s quite simple , if we are saying the top3 are so far superior than the middle order then one of them has to drop down and play at least at 4 . Rayudu is average by our general batting standards but I bet you open with him , he will consistently give you better starts than we are getting now . Some one like pant can take the game away in 10 overs , we definitely need one such opener . Just need a 35 averaging 110 SR opener , am sure 350+ scores will come 

Why can't Pant take the game in last 10 overs.

[rkt.india]

10 hours ago, jusarrived said:

So we dint get to 350 today cos Dhoni scored only 48 of 33 or is it cos we score at 5 rpo in first 15 ? 

 

 

We were 88 in 15 overs, not 75. We were 154 in 25 overs. Rest 25 overs 172 which isn't enough acceleration. From 154/0 in 25 position, we used to easily score 350 plus in the past.

[rkt.india]

10 hours ago, sandeep said:

Sssh.  Don't interrupt the stupid brigade with less than obvious facts.

Wrong facts.

[sandeep]

5 hours ago, putrevus said:

You see a very different game than most of us.

Its not just about this one game -  I honestly dont care even if we lose the NZ series.  There's a reason I was pushing for Jadhav to bat in the last 15-18 overs instead of the last 5 since last year.  

[sandeep]

5 hours ago, Number said:

Some posts in this thread 

Rohit starting slow in first 10 overs is the problem but Dhoni starting slow in 45th over is not. 

If your rickshaw is stuck at a top speed of 20 mph, you aren't going to keep hoping for it to somehow turn into a rocket.  But if your BMW is set to cruise control on 55 mph, you can have a realistic expectation of pushing that up a bit.  

 

 

[rkt.india]

9 hours ago, sandeep said:

Haan Bhai, eating 200 balls scoring at sub-par scoring rate is top order ke baap ki jaagir.  Sorry, Bunty Sajdeh ki jaagir.

Kuch bhi.

[sandeep]

6 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Kuch bhi.

Look at the pattern of the games over the last 20 months.  Rohit is an all-world ODI opener, Dhawan is pretty awesome too.  Virat has unbelievable ODI stats.  

 

But our top order is being regularly out-done by the England top order.  Jason Roy, Alex Hales, Sam Billings, Bairstow etc - these guys are not better batsman than our top order, but are producing more runs for the TEAM in the 1st 25 overs, especially batting first.  

 

why is that?  more importantly, is it possible for our top order to increase their run production in the 1st 25 overs? I'm convinced that its not a question of skill or capability.  Its a question of self-imposed tactics and choices.  

 

Overall, India has much more talent and skill in the pool of batsmen available to our team for selection, yet we are being out-scored by England.   

[Number]

45 minutes ago, sandeep said:

If your rickshaw is stuck at a top speed of 20 mph, you aren't going to keep hoping for it to somehow turn into a rocket.  But if your BMW is set to cruise control on 55 mph, you can have a realistic expectation of pushing that up a bit.  

 

 

Agree specially being stuck with a 40 year old khataara rickshaw, but you are expecting too much from Rohit.

 His s.r. in first 10 overs is ~78.

In 11 to 40 it is ~108.

And from 40 to 50 it is ~190.

For someone whose role is to bat long and score big this is pretty good. Also he has an aggressive partner in Dhawan at the other end. 

 

[sandeep]

10 hours ago, Number said:

Agree specially being stuck with a 40 year old khataara rickshaw, but you are expecting too much from Rohit.

 His s.r. in first 10 overs is ~78.

In 11 to 40 it is ~108.

And from 40 to 50 it is ~190.

For someone whose role is to bat long and score big this is pretty good. Also he has an aggressive partner in Dhawan at the other end. 

 

Individual numbers are just that - individual numbers.  I'm more concerned with team numbers.  India scores around 45 runs in the 1st 10 overs on average.  England scores around 70.  An additional gap of 15-20 runs, if not more, is added to this by the 25th over.  You can't spot the opposition 30+ runs every game by the half way mark, and gamble that Lord Rohit will "make it up" if he bats that long and gets his 100 out of the way.  

 

And 78 SR in the power-play is Ganguly-esque.  Essentially, the 50 to 70% of the games where Rohit does not score a century, he digs the team into a hole in the name of giving the team a "start".   

 

This is not to crucify Rohit excessively although it may read that way.  He's a gun ODI batsman.  I just want the Indian team to recognize the glaringly obvious low hanging fruit here, and try to get to raise that 45 runs in 10 overs average to about 55-60.  Not asking them to suddenly turn into free swinging hacks like England's.  But own the responsibility of supplying the innings with momentum at the start, instead of putting all of their and the team's chips on "going big".  Its not an easy transition to make.  You can't wake up the morning of WC and decide, we are going to bat with 20% more aggression.  The time to start doing it is now, with 8-10 games left.  

 

If we manage to make this improvement and add 10-20more runs in the 1st 100 balls - an improvement that I believe is well within this team's reach, without taking excessive risk - this team will become an unstoppable juggernaut.  

 

 

[sandeep]

5 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

They just dont have the quality ,what you need are natural strikers like yuvraj and dhoni used to be, coupled with good running between the wickets  .With this line up they should look for a decent score and look to defend it ,otherwise if they try too hard it might result in collapses.

In the days of Yuvraj and Dhoni - the last 10 overs had max 4 fielders, for a few years, they even had 3 at times!  Its a different ODI setup now.  The 20-40 over phase becomes very crucial in setting up proper big totals.  Its not just about the "big finish" anymore, but fans are habituated into thinking about ODI batting as if the rules haven't changed.

[sandeep]

50 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

I know about the rule changes .The comparison was about the striking ability of a young yuvraj and dhoni to that of our current middle order .May be I should have explained it out better.

I mean its a fair point to say that current strikers lack the class and ability of in-prime yuvi or dhoni.  But there is more than one way to get to 350.  That's my point.  India is traditionally a batting super-power in LOI cricket.  And compared to other teams, our player pool and talent pool is much deeper.  Relative to that, we are under-achieving when it comes to team totals, while a handful of batsmen are racking up super-star Individual numbers.

[kosingh]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

Individual numbers are just that - individual numbers.  I'm more concerned with team numbers.  India scores around 45 runs in the 1st 10 overs on average.  England scores around 70.  An additional gap of 15-20 runs, if not more, is added to this by the 25th over.  You can't spot the opposition 30+ runs every game by the half way mark, and gamble that Lord Rohit will "make it up" if he bats that long and gets his 100 out of the way.  

 

And 78 SR in the power-play is Ganguly-esque.  Essentially, the 50 to 70% of the games where Rohit does not score a century, he digs the team into a hole in the name of giving the team a "start".   

 

This is not to crucify Rohit excessively although it may read that way.  He's a gun ODI batsman.  I just want the Indian team to recognize the glaringly obvious low hanging fruit here, and try to get to raise that 45 runs in 10 overs average to about 55-60.  Not asking them to suddenly turn into free swinging hacks like England's.  But own the responsibility of supplying the innings with momentum at the start, instead of putting all of their and the team's chips on "going big".  Its not an easy transition to make.  You can't wake up the morning of WC and decide, we are going to bat with 20% more aggression.  The time to start doing it is now, with 8-10 games left.  

 

If we manage to make this improvement and add 10-20more runs in the 1st 100 balls - an improvement that I believe is well within this team's reach, without taking excessive risk - this team will become an unstoppable juggernaut.  

 

 

This is a great point. Made me curious enough to go check out stats for the opening partnerships for India and England. 

 

I looked at stats since Jan 1st 2018.

 

Rohit and Shikhar. 24 matches. 1073 runs.  Ave partnership of 44.7 runs @ 5.59 runs per over. 4 partnerships of 50 and 2 partnerships of 100. 

 

Bairstow and Roy. 20 matches. 1027 runs. Ave partnership of  51.3 runs  @ 7.04 runs per over. 6 partnerships of 50 and 3 partnerships of 100. 

 

 

[sandeep]

28 minutes ago, kosingh said:

This is a great point. Made me curious enough to go check out stats for the opening partnerships for India and England. 

 

I looked at stats since Jan 1st 2018.

 

Rohit and Shikhar. 24 matches. 1073 runs.  Ave partnership of 44.7 runs @ 5.59 runs per over. 4 partnerships of 50 and 2 partnerships of 100. 

 

Bairstow and Roy. 20 matches. 1027 runs. Ave partnership of  51.3 runs  @ 7.04 runs per over. 6 partnerships of 50 and 3 partnerships of 100. 

 

 

Run-rate differential of 1.5 runs per over.  Over 1st 25 overs that's almost 40 runs.  Imagine the difference that makes.  Not to mention the immense pressure it puts on the fielding team.  Makes it so much easier for the rest of the batsman to follow.

 

Think back to the famous Natwest chase that Yuvi and Kaif finished for India.  Crucial in that chase was the aggressive start that Ganguly and Veeru provided at the top.   That bought the crucial buffer for the middle order to play themselves in a little bit, without the asking rate getting out of control.   That should be the standard set for openers.  Use the powerplay overs and set the innings momentum rolling by attacking the bowlers.   Not cruise to personal landmarks at 80 SR and THEN take risk afterwards.  

[Stan AF]

1 hour ago, kosingh said:

This is a great point. Made me curious enough to go check out stats for the opening partnerships for India and England. 

 

I looked at stats since Jan 1st 2018.

 

Rohit and Shikhar. 24 matches. 1073 runs.  Ave partnership of 44.7 runs @ 5.59 runs per over. 4 partnerships of 50 and 2 partnerships of 100. 

 

Bairstow and Roy. 20 matches. 1027 runs. Ave partnership of  51.3 runs  @ 7.04 runs per over. 6 partnerships of 50 and 3 partnerships of 100. 

 

 

Dude, what is the english middle order and what do we have here?. Point is many posters here don't understand that the english top order batsmen have the luxury/cushion of a middle order. Indian top order doesn't have that luxury.

[Stan AF]

Even yesterday Kohli got out because he couldn't and I repeat he couldn't go after the bowling in a bid to accelerate the scoring rate. We have only one power hitter for the entire team.

 

What happened after him getting out is a routine story in indian middle order. for 5 overs there was not even a single 4.

 

And you guys are complaining that top order should score even faster!!!

[SecondSlip]

Team India has a very specific template whenever we bat first in ODIs: 

 

1. Try to be only 2-3 wickets down with 160 runs minimum on the board at the 30 over mark. 

2. Bat out the last 20 overs with 7-8 wickets in hand like you would in a T20 game and try to score another 150-160 runs. 

3. Finish with a final score of 310-330 and trust Bumrah along with Kul-Cha to defend it. 

 

The team management isn’t concerned because it’s working so far. 

Edited January 27, 2019 by SecondSlip