zen Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 11 minutes ago, Adi BB said: Triple ton was the first test only but without his triple ton ,India would have struggled to get to saf 560 odd total wasn't the triple ton in the 2nd test? Link to comment
Jimmy Cliff Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 2 hours ago, Gollum said: That was a bad choke dude, worst part is the string of excuses about his bad back. I quoted several examples of cricketers playing through pain and winning matches...the 'stiff back' nonsense (he played the next test, nothing major) doesn't do justice to anyone with an iota of intelligence. That sorry excuse makes me react worse when I think about that loss. Gavaskar's knock came on a rank turner and he was barely surviving (quite a few umpiring reprieves), '99 Chennai pitch played better and SRT was in complete control. Lara was dropped but got the job done in the end, had he failed he too should have received criticism. And he didn't give a chance with a mad swipe like SRT. Anyhow if it makes you happier I don't rate Lara highly in the mental department either. LMAO so coming in at 6/2, absorbing all pressure when the score was 80/5 and dragging it to 254/6 while chasing 270 counts as a bad choke now? I hope our batsmen have many such "chokes" in the future. Some of your examples include performances that didn't even get close to a win (like Amarnath, Kumble) whereas you call a performance brought us to the doorstep of the victory a bad choke. Oh the irony. As I've said previously, Tendulkar's knock was pretty much a mirror image of Mark Waugh's 116 vs RSA in 1997. The only difference being that the Aussie tailenders were good enough to slog a couple of boundaries to reach the target. But according to hindsight analysts one is a "match-winning" knock that is worthy of a place in Wisden's Top 25 knocks whereas the other is a choke. This is precisely the sort of junk reading of the game that I have no time for. bahubali, Laaloo, maniac and 5 others 1 7 Link to comment
Adi BB Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, zen said: wasn't the triple ton in the 2nd test? Nah it was in the 1st in Chennai,then we got spanked in ahmedabad and finally dhoni chacha paid some cash to the kanpur curator to settle the scores lol zen and bahubali 1 1 Link to comment
Jimmy Cliff Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 37 minutes ago, sandeep said: Sehwag revolutionized test match batting. He had his technical flaws, but one of the most mentally strong batsmen around. Every ball was must-watch when he was at the crease. But but but he barely averaged 30 in the 2nd innings so he was a choker bro. bahubali, DHONI_FANN and Number 3 Link to comment
MechEng Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 hour ago, zen said: After watching these guys bat, there is a reason why Sehwag, who brought a different approach, became my fav Ind batsman from the 2000s onwards era, and Lara continues to awe me as a test batsman Sehwag can also be considered selfish because he cared least about being patient on the crease when the ball is moving a lot. Lara can also be considered selfish because he relied more on his mood than match situation to score runs. The thing is cricketers are flawed people like the rest of us and we should not expect prophet like morals from them. bahubali and sandeep 2 Link to comment
Cricketics Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I won't call it a choke. He got us into that situation. Also he played that lazy shot out of frustration because he was cramping and could not find a way to stay any longer at the the crease. It was a masterclass and I remember this test and series very well(especially as I watched the next test in the stadium where Kumble created history with 10 wits on day 4). Tendulkar was on fire. We can blame Mongia equally actually but then its Test Cricket. Saqlain and Pak put pressure on us. They put us in a situation where all knew that it was matter of breaking that partnership which was standing between the result and that is exactly what happened. Mongia got out and then so did Tendulkar later. Nothing choke there. Just a great test cricket game which you can say Pak played slightly better. sandeep, Stradlater and bahubali 3 Link to comment
zen Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 6 minutes ago, MechEng said: Sehwag can also be considered selfish because he cared least about being patient on the crease when the ball is moving a lot. Lara can also be considered selfish because he relied more on his mood than match situation to score runs. The thing is cricketers are flawed people like the rest of us and we should not expect prophet like morals from them. Natural game velu 1 Link to comment
Gollum Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 56 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said: LMAO so coming in at 6/2, absorbing all pressure when the score was 80/5 and dragging it to 254/6 while chasing 270 counts as a bad choke now? I hope our batsmen have many such "chokes" in the future. Some of your examples include performances that didn't even get close to a win (like Amarnath, Kumble) whereas you call a performance brought us to the doorstep of the victory a bad choke. Oh the irony. As I've said previously, Tendulkar's knock was pretty much a mirror image of Mark Waugh's 116 vs RSA in 1997. The only difference being that the Aussie tailenders were good enough to slog a couple of boundaries to reach the target. But according to hindsight analysts one is a "match-winning" knock that is worthy of a place in Wisden's Top 25 knocks whereas the other is a choke. This is precisely the sort of junk reading of the game that I have no time for. Those examples weren't made to highlight the nature of Sachin's choke. I did it to counter the exaggerated assertions about his back injury and using 'stiff back' as an excuse card for his failure. I don't care what Wisden said, says or will say in the future.....I have my own opinion about cricket matters, right or wrong. What he did early on in his innings (6/2, 80/5) has nothing to do with why I called it a 'choke'. Federer tamely lost the 1st 2 sets in 2008 Wimbledon final, heroically staved off a Championship point (on Nadal's serve, BHDTL winner) and won the 3rd and 4th set in tie breaks, then despite serving first in set 5 (big advantage because opponent is always under pressure to hold his serve) and with momentum on his side, choked and handed the crown to Nadal. That counts as a choke despite his heroic efforts to take the final to the 5th set after being in all sorts of trouble, back against the wall for 80% of the match. Similarly the 2009 AO/USO finals...no matter what bounce-backability Fed showed in the matches the way he blew his chances in the final stage prove why he is where he is in the slam race despite an overwhelming head start, easy draws (2003-07) and for most parts better court game than his main rivals. I made this Fed-SRT comparison earlier and just wanted to reinforce my point about both being chokers and having choked historically important matches. Sorry bhai, I won't change my opinion, kaafi ziddi hoon kam se kam is mamle mein. Link to comment
Jimmy Cliff Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 12 minutes ago, Gollum said: Those examples weren't made to highlight the nature of Sachin's choke. I did it to counter the exaggerated assertions about his back injury and using 'stiff back' as an excuse card for his failure. I don't care what Wisden said, says or will say in the future.....I have my own opinion about cricket matters, right or wrong. What he did early on in his innings (6/2, 80/5) has nothing to do with why I called it a 'choke'. Federer tamely lost the 1st 2 sets in 2008 Wimbledon final, heroically staved off a Championship point (on Nadal's serve, BHDTL winner) and won the 3rd and 4th set in tie breaks, then despite serving first in set 5 (big advantage because opponent is always under pressure to hold his serve) and with momentum on his side, choked and handed the crown to Nadal. That counts as a choke despite his heroic efforts to take the final to the 5th set after being in all sorts of trouble, back against the wall for 80% of the match. Similarly the 2009 AO/USO finals...no matter what bounce-backability Fed showed in the matches the way he blew his chances in the final stage prove why he is where he is in the slam race despite an overwhelming head start, easy draws (2003-07) and for most parts better court game than his main rivals. I made this Fed-SRT comparison earlier and just wanted to reinforce my point about both being chokers and having choked historically important matches. Sorry bhai, I won't change my opinion, kaafi ziddi hoon kam se kam is mamle mein. I am not going down the route of comparing individual and team sports. Tell me one thing. If Srinath, Kumble and Joshi strike a flukey boundary each and India win by 1-2 wkts, would you still call it choke job or would you call it great match-winning hundred? Link to comment
Gollum Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said: I am not going down the route of comparing individual and team sports. Tell me one thing. If Srinath, Kumble and Joshi strike a flukey boundary each and India win by 1-2 wkts, would you still call it choke job or would you call it great match-winning hundred? I would criticize his stupid way of getting out. I still call it a great 100 but ultimately a choke job. Cricket is a unique sport, it is a team event but at any point of time 2 individuals compete against each other. It is a team sport which has most 'individual sport character'...converse is also true, it can be viewed as an individual sport which has maximum 'team sport character'. Edited January 31, 2019 by Gollum Link to comment
zen Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Reflecting back, I would not say it was a choke job as he had played Saqlain pretty well till that point (so it was not a pressure release shot) .... it was among the best innings that i have watched .... a stumping was missed as well when he was on 90. But it was ok as Ind was far behind from the target so everything appeared like a bonus till that point .... After Mongia departed, he did well to take Ind past 250. His decision to finish the game quickly than what playing normally would have allowed, which is where he erred As a fan, what disappointed me is that unlike LOIs, in tests, you do not get too many opportunities to win a game for your team with the bat. This was once such inning and one that deserved to be on the winning side. But sometimes life has a different plan Link to comment
Asim Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Wow, one of the best ever Test win for Pak... still remember watching it ball-by-ball, match was almost slipped but somehow we had belief Sachin wicket can change the situation, at the end it was like a dream win... Series was 1-1 but Pak vs Ind first Test of Asia cup victory right after it made it like 2-1 series win for us... Link to comment
zen Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 minute ago, Asim said: Wow, one of the best ever Test win for Pak... still remember watching it ball-by-ball, match was almost slipped but somehow we had belief Sachin wicket can change the situation, at the end it was like a dream win... Series was 1-1 but Pak vs Ind first Test of Asia cup victory right after it made it like 2-1 series win for us... Asia Cup game was not a part of the series. Test series was 1-1. And Pak won the Asia Cup match Link to comment
sandeep Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, Asim said: but somehow we had belief Sachin wicket can change the situation Sure. We totally believe that you weren't chest-beating and accusing your own team of intentionally fixing the game etc etc. bahubali and Stradlater 2 Link to comment
zen Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) Moin Khan choked Edited January 31, 2019 by zen SK_IH 1 Link to comment
Asim Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 11 minutes ago, zen said: Asia Cup game was not a part of the series. Test series was 1-1. And Pak won the Asia Cup match ofcourse, as I said "made it like 2-1 series win for us" since match was in same tour... Link to comment
Jimmy Cliff Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Gollum said: I would criticize his stupid way of getting out. I still call it a great 100 but ultimately a choke job. Cricket is a unique sport, it is a team event but at any point of time 2 individuals compete against each other. It is a team sport which has most 'individual sport character'...converse is also true, it can be viewed as an individual sport which has maximum 'team sport character'. So you'd criticize the way he got out but not call it a "bad choke" the way you are right now? Correct me if I am wrong. But since we lost, it is now supposedly a bad choke. This is precisely my point. It's pretty much the match result which decides the narrative. The exact same knock would be hailed as one of the GOAT match-winning performances of all time if Srinath slogs a couple of sixes after Sachin gets out. It happens with other teams too. Mark Waugh pretty much played the same innings in RSA and I am yet to see anyone claim that Waugh choked when the win was in sight. Ponting's career best knock of 156 in Ashes 2005 is hailed as a match-saving knock on the final day. But if either Lee and McGrath don't bat out the last 4 overs, he'd be accused of "choking" . Edited February 1, 2019 by Jimmy Cliff sandeep, Number, Stradlater and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment
maniac Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) our tail would have rolled over against the Pakistani pace attack and they were super mediocre as clearly shown throughout the 90s. A guy who scored a 100 against all odds with a back injury is a choker and a culprit? @Gollum bhai spending too much time on the green ghetto? Edited January 31, 2019 by maniac bahubali and Stradlater 1 1 Link to comment
Gollum Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said: So you'd criticize the way he got out but not call it a "bad choke" the way you are right now? Correct me if I am wrong. But since we lost, it is now supposedly a bad choke. This is precisely my point. It's pretty much the match result which decides the narrative. The exact same knock would be hailed as one of the GOAT match-winning performances of all time if Srinath slogs a couple of sixes after Sachin gets out. It happens with other teams too. Mark Waugh pretty much played the same innings as RSA and I am yet to see anyone claim that Waugh choked when the win was in sight. Ponting's career best knock of 156 in Ashes 2005 is hailed as a match-saving knock on the final day. But if either Lee and McGrath don't bat out the last 4 overs, he'd be accused of "choking" . Nah I would still call it a bad choke, mainly because of the way he threw it away with victory in sight. That shot selection was a massive brain fart. Link to comment
Gollum Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, maniac said: our tail would have rolled over against the Pakistani pace attack and they were super mediocre as clearly shown throughout the 90s. A guy who scored a 100 against all odds with a back injury is a choker and a culprit? @Gollum bhai spending too much time on the green ghetto? No need for that, let's keep it civil. Why not stick to debating the points if you want to? I have explained my p.o.v clearly in this thread. Link to comment
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