raki05 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 2 hours ago, zen said: You are pointing out things that do not matter to the discussion. For e.g. you want to say that Dravid performance against ATG team with great bowlers overseas is not good, but you are ignoring that batting in top 3 particularly overseas is a challenge, and Sachin, who lines up to open in ODIs, conveniently bats at #4 in tests (probably not good enough to bat in the top order in tests). Tendulkar was always a middle order batsmen, because of his aggresive batsmen style he has been offered opening slot and there is no need for him to bat at opener in Test. By the way this discussion was also not about Tendulkar. maniac 1 Link to comment
coffee_rules Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 10 hours ago, raki05 said: Tendulkar was always a middle order batsmen, because of his aggresive batsmen style he has been offered opening slot and there is no need for him to bat at opener in Test. By the way this discussion was also not about Tendulkar. No, of having better technique for aggression and his willingness to take risks when there are fielding restrictions. But often, he used to be non-striker as per Ganguly and didn't like to face. TBF, in test cricket, more often he would often come in within first 10 overs until Openers and Dravid established past 2000s. raki05 1 Link to comment
zen Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 10 hours ago, raki05 said: Tendulkar was always a middle order batsmen, because of his aggresive batsmen style he has been offered opening slot and there is no need for him to bat at opener in Test. By the way this discussion was also not about Tendulkar. if it was easier to bat in the top order esp. overseas, he would have batted there too in tests. He is a batsman who looks for best slots to bat at and not necessarily take the challenge. And not surprisingly, Rahane foo prefers to open in ODIs and come down the order in tests Link to comment
maniac Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 minute ago, zen said: if it was easier to bat in the top order esp. overseas, he would have batted there too in tests. He is a batsman who looks for best slots to bat at and not necessarily take the challenge. And not surprisingly, Rahane foo prefers to open in ODIs and come down the order in tests To be in that position which is to pick and chose at your own free will , you have to get to that stature and you get to that stature by being better than everyone Link to comment
zen Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 minute ago, maniac said: To be in that position which is to pick and chose at your own free will , you have to get to that stature and you get to that stature by being better than everyone In terms of skills, I rate him as among the best. It is the output in relationship to skills and mental strength, which is mainly being discussed. Also he is being overhyped in India by people who don't do well in sports in general and found someone who can compete with the best overseas. So may feel obliged to blow his horn - a case of empty vessels may be. Link to comment
zen Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) Below is a comparison of Tendulkar and Kallis at point of entry: Tendulkar is only able to compete with Kallis when he comes at a score of 100 or more. For any score less than 100, Kallis demolishes him when the batsman walks in when the team score is 0-99: Kallis: rough avg 50 (at 0-20, avg 57) Tendulkar: rough avg 43 (at 0-20, avg 41 - so not surprised to see him shy away from batting in the top order) Edited July 21, 2020 by zen Link to comment
coffee_rules Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, zen said: Below is a comparison of Tendulkar and Kallis at point of entry: Tendulkar is only able to compete with Kallis when he comes at a score of 100 or more. For any score less than 100, Kallis demolishes him when the batsman walks in when the team score is 0-99: Kallis: rough avg 50 (at 0-20, avg 57) Tendulkar: rough avg 43 (at 0-20, avg 41 - so not surprised to see him shy away from batting in the top order) Kallis has 50 innings at 3, where he has scores like 189* and 153•, so averages is higher. Tendulkar once batted at 2 and mostly from 4,5, so the split in averages at each score is already flawed. Kallis has skills to bat at 3 and 4, and comparing him with somebody only batted at 4 is not a good comparison. Tendulkar didn’t bat earlier because he was not equipped for anything other than 4. Where he was the most successful. The team has to play their best player at 4 to maximize their win percentage. Edited July 21, 2020 by coffee_rules Link to comment
SK_IH Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 On 7/20/2020 at 9:21 PM, Clarke said: This Lara Tendulkar here is a distraction. Look at what the champ is saying : https://www.thestatesman.com/sports/want-make-comeback-odis-says-ajinkya-rahane-1502907887.html Saala not good enough to play tests but somehow wants to make an odi comeback. Dunno how he lost his way, IPL or something else. IPL should not be an excuse. This guy was always an overrated batsman who camouflaged his batting failures with one-off performances overseas every tour. He is somehow hailed as one of the successors of the erstwhile fab four and is labelled as a mainstay of Indian middle order, without doing anything extraordinary. It was a travesty he was even considered for LOIs over players like Iyer, Pandey etc. However, the hillarious part is this guy is also the vice captain of Indian test team, giving you clear indication about a brain dead team management led by King Kohli. sorak and Gollum 2 Link to comment
Suhaan Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Rahane has got huge backing,i only see him getting near to our odi side as we near WC 23,utter humiliation in front of home crowd will get him and kohli kicked out, by that time we will probably miss crucial years of Gill etc Link to comment
zen Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, coffee_rules said: Tendulkar didn’t bat earlier because he was not equipped for anything other than 4. Agree that he is probably not equipped to do well in the top order "relatively" speaking Quote The team has to play their best player at 4 to maximize their win percentage. Disagree as your top batsmen can play anywhere in top 4. If he is well equipped to play new ball well or mentally focused, he will most likely play in the top 3 unless the team has a more well suited #3. Once the reflexes slow down, the batsman could move down to 4 or 5. Some of the top batsmen in top 3 are below: Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0 DG Bradman (AUS) 1930-1948 40 56 7 5078 334 103.63 20 10 5 KF Barrington (ENG) 1960-1967 29 44 7 2828 172 76.43 13 8 0 WR Hammond (ENG) 1928-1937 40 57 7 3755 336* 75.10 15 6 1 GA Headley (WI) 1930-1948 19 32 3 2064 270* 71.17 10 4 1 IVA Richards (WI) 1976-1986 47 63 2 3787 291 62.08 13 16 2 H Sutcliffe (ENG) 1924-1935 54 83 9 4522 194 61.10 16 23 2 BC Lara (WI) 1992-2006 44 68 4 3860 400* 60.31 9 14 4 L Hutton (ENG) 1937-1955 76 131 12 6721 364 56.47 19 31 5 JB Hobbs (ENG) 1908-1930 59 98 6 5153 211 56.01 14 27 4 RT Ponting (AUS) 1996-2011 107 187 18 9337 257 55.24 30 40 9 KC Sangakkara (SL) 2000-2015 109 190 15 9564 287 54.65 28 43 10 RB Simpson (AUS) 1960-1968 41 74 5 3739 311 54.18 8 20 5 DL Amiss (ENG) 1967-1977 40 70 8 3305 262* 53.30 11 9 6 Younis Khan (PAK) 2000-2014 46 78 4 3836 313 51.83 12 11 7 SM Katich (AUS) 2004-2010 36 66 4 3187 157 51.40 8 19 2 ER Dexter (ENG) 1959-1968 39 59 3 2868 205 51.21 6 17 3 B Mitchell (SA) 1929-1949 39 71 7 3250 189* 50.78 8 20 2 WM Woodfull (AUS) 1926-1934 27 45 4 2071 161 50.51 7 11 4 V Sehwag (INDIA) 2002-2013 92 160 4 7851 319 50.32 22 27 15 SM Gavaskar (INDIA) 1971-1987 119 203 12 9607 221 50.29 33 42 11 CA Pujara (INDIA) 2010-2020 70 115 7 5425 206* 50.23 18 21 7 IM Chappell (AUS) 1964-1980 55 94 7 4296 196 49.37 13 22 8 RB Kanhai (WI) 1957-1973 64 103 2 4979 256 49.29 13 21 6 R Dravid (INDIA) 1996-2012 133 225 20 10084 270 49.19 27 46 6 HM Amla (SA) 2006-2019 99 167 14 7504 311* 49.04 22 37 11 KS Williamson (NZ) 2011-2020 60 107 9 4806 242* 49.04 15 22 5 Top batsmen at 4: iew overall figures [change view] Primary team Australia or Bangladesh or England or India or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or Sri Lanka or West Indies or Zimbabwe Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or Sri Lanka or West Indies Batting position equal to 4 Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000 Ordered by batting average (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 39 of 39 First Previous Next Last Return to query menuCleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0 SPD Smith (AUS) 2013-2020 35 56 7 3664 239 74.77 13 15 1 ED Weekes (WI) 1948-1958 37 57 4 3372 207 63.62 11 17 3 RG Pollock (SA) 1963-1970 23 37 4 2065 274 62.57 7 8 1 JH Kallis (SA) 1998-2013 104 162 21 8662 224 61.43 34 34 10 KF Barrington (ENG) 1960-1968 33 44 4 2367 256 59.17 7 12 1 GS Chappell (AUS) 1972-1984 54 86 13 4316 247* 59.12 15 19 6 PBH May (ENG) 1952-1961 37 49 8 2383 285* 58.12 7 12 3 V Kohli (INDIA) 2013-2020 60 98 6 5338 254* 58.02 21 13 7 NCL O'Neill (AUS) 1958-1965 28 41 6 2010 181 57.42 5 10 3 Mohammad Yousuf (PAK) 2000-2010 40 62 3 3344 223 56.67 11 12 4 Javed Miandad (PAK) 1976-1993 101 136 12 6792 280* 54.77 19 30 4 Inzamam-ul-Haq (PAK) 1995-2005 57 82 3 4264 329 53.97 12 21 7 DCS Compton (ENG) 1937-1955 57 86 7 4234 278 53.59 13 20 6 BC Lara (WI) 1990-2006 86 140 1 7099 277 51.07 22 30 11 WR Hammond (ENG) 1927-1947 44 66 7 2997 240 50.79 7 15 3 SR Tendulkar (INDIA) 1992-2013 164 256 22 11864 241* 50.70 36 55 10 AR Border (AUS) 1981-1992 61 88 13 3783 205 50.44 8 21 3 AD Nourse (SA) 1935-1951 31 53 5 2400 208 50.00 7 13 3 Edited July 21, 2020 by zen Link to comment
Gollum Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) Rahane will start in WC 2023 guarantee, as will Dhawan. Neither KL nor Iyer will be in the XI. If Kohli has it his way we'll see a top 7 of 39 yo Dhawan 37 yo Rohit Chokohli Rahane 40 yo Jadhav or Pandey 55 yo Dhoni or DK Jaddu for his priceless 15 (20) cameos Can imagine Rahane in mid innings break at Chinnaswamy saying that 240 is a winning total against defending champs, proud of his 50 (80). Kick Kohli out or we are *ed. Edited July 21, 2020 by Gollum SK_IH 1 Link to comment
Gollum Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 3 hours ago, SK_IH said: IPL should not be an excuse. This guy was always an overrated batsman who camouflaged his batting failures with one-off performances overseas every tour. He is somehow hailed as one of the successors of the erstwhile fab four and is labelled as a mainstay of Indian middle order, without doing anything extraordinary. It was a travesty he was even considered for LOIs over players like Iyer, Pandey etc. However, the hillarious part is this guy is also the vice captain of Indian test team, giving you clear indication about a brain dead team management led by King Kohli. I know this won't happen but we don't need Kohli in the ODI team. He may have GOAT stats but what has he done in WCs esp KOs. Then we have the baggage of his stupid captaincy tactics/strategy, negative influence on youngsters, lack of ambition, inability to hold his nerve. Without him we get our best possible skipper in Rohit and guys like Pant, KLR can play more freely...Rohit gets the best out of his players. And anyone in place of Kohli, say Gill can outdo his 1(7) type performances in big matches. He has played 3 WCs, twice at his peak and each time there were at least a dozen batsmen who outclassed him. Link to comment
The Realist Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 58 minutes ago, Gollum said: Rahane will start in WC 2023 guarantee, as will Dhawan. Neither KL nor Iyer will be in the XI. If Kohli has it his way we'll see a top 7 of 39 yo Dhawan 37 yo Rohit Chokohli Rahane 40 yo Jadhav or Pandey 55 yo Dhoni or DK Jaddu for his priceless 15 (20) cameos Can imagine Rahane in mid innings break at Chinnaswamy saying that 240 is a winning total against defending champs, proud of his 50 (80). Kick Kohli out or we are *ed. Kohli likes his dad's army. I would rather play most of the below if picking guys in their 40s: Link to comment
SK_IH Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 3 hours ago, Gollum said: I know this won't happen but we don't need Kohli in the ODI team. He may have GOAT stats but what has he done in WCs esp KOs. Then we have the baggage of his stupid captaincy tactics/strategy, negative influence on youngsters, lack of ambition, inability to hold his nerve. Without him we get our best possible skipper in Rohit and guys like Pant, KLR can play more freely...Rohit gets the best out of his players. And anyone in place of Kohli, say Gill can outdo his 1(7) type performances in big matches. He has played 3 WCs, twice at his peak and each time there were at least a dozen batsmen who outclassed him. I agree with you about the pedestrian performances of Kohli when it matters the most and it's for everyone to see. But he is needed in the team but not as captain. Remove him from the leadership spot and most of his damaging influence is gone. It sucks to have a loser lead your side, who has a long history of not winning any worthy trophy. Link to comment
rkt.india Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 On 7/20/2020 at 1:47 AM, zen said: That is fine as by and large, wins in tests is a team effort. If you have a strong team even a random 50 will be for a winning cause. If I have to consider individual batting performance that drove wins, it would be Laxman's 281, Lara's 153, Sehwag's 300, Pujara's performance in Aus, etc. .... Here, I am focused on how the individual is able to rack up a big series for his team and not be satisfied with for e.g. 1 100 = job done type of attitude. Laxman ka 281 sabko yaad hai, Dravid ka 180 sab bhool jate hain. Link to comment
raki05 Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, zen said: if it was easier to bat in the top order esp. overseas, he would have batted there too in tests. He is a batsman who looks for best slots to bat at and not necessarily take the challenge. And not surprisingly, Rahane foo prefers to open in ODIs and come down the order in tests Why would he bat there when in his entire first class career and in international career to start of with batted at 4. Till 99 he mostly use to get in during fist 15-20 over itself. Where VIV batted, Where Steve wagh batted, Where did Lara bat. In test no body changes their position especially ATG players and they typically bat at position where they are more comfortable or where they have started batting durin their first class. Edited July 22, 2020 by raki05 Link to comment
raki05 Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 11 hours ago, zen said: Below is a comparison of Tendulkar and Kallis at point of entry: Tendulkar is only able to compete with Kallis when he comes at a score of 100 or more. For any score less than 100, Kallis demolishes him when the batsman walks in when the team score is 0-99: Kallis: rough avg 50 (at 0-20, avg 57) Tendulkar: rough avg 43 (at 0-20, avg 41 - so not surprised to see him shy away from batting in the top order) Manju is born jealous person. He jealous anything near perfect and has habit of questioning successful people. Players like Jadega and Pollard are more successful than him and that's why they thrashed him while he tried to troll them. Link to comment
Clarke Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 12 hours ago, SK_IH said: IPL should not be an excuse. This guy was always an overrated batsman who camouflaged his batting failures with one-off performances overseas every tour. He is somehow hailed as one of the successors of the erstwhile fab four and is labelled as a mainstay of Indian middle order, without doing anything extraordinary. It was a travesty he was even considered for LOIs over players like Iyer, Pandey etc. However, the hillarious part is this guy is also the vice captain of Indian test team, giving you clear indication about a brain dead team management led by King Kohli. Not looking for excuse, rather the reason behind going from run of the mill years back to below par in the recent years. Maybe his run of the mill was essentially the best he could manage. Maybe he's not good enough to play all formats and hence struggles even more than earlier. Maybe he's not getting practice time after marriage SK_IH 1 Link to comment
prudent_kreeda Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 8 hours ago, The Realist said: Kohli likes his dad's army. I would rather play most of the below if picking guys in their 40s: 9 hours ago, Gollum said: Rahane will start in WC 2023 guarantee, as will Dhawan. Neither KL nor Iyer will be in the XI. If Kohli has it his way we'll see a top 7 of 39 yo Dhawan 37 yo Rohit Chokohli Rahane 40 yo Jadhav or Pandey 55 yo Dhoni or DK Jaddu for his priceless 15 (20) cameos Can imagine Rahane in mid innings break at Chinnaswamy saying that 240 is a winning total against defending champs, proud of his 50 (80). Kick Kohli out or we are *ed. This won't happen for sure . However in best interest and better results - Rohit should be short format captain and VK should be there only as a bat and may be better at #4 to steady the middle order I think if Vk fials in 2021 T20 to reach finals , Rohit should be made captain. Link to comment
zen Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, raki05 said: Why would he bat there when in his entire first class career and in international career to start of with batted at 4. Till 99 he mostly use to get in during fist 15-20 over itself. Where VIV batted, Where Steve wagh batted, Where did Lara bat. In test no body changes their position especially ATG players and they typically bat at position where they are more comfortable or where they have started batting durin their first The point is that to know where it is easier to bat follow guys like Tendulkar and Rahane. When he comes to bat when the score is 0-20, his avg is only 41. He is not good enough to bat in top 3 relative to many top ATG batsmen. 2nd, Tendulkar has batted at various positions including at #3 in tests (for 1 test iirc) and did not do well. As mentioned, he has a low avg as well when he comes in early. As for guys like Lara and Richards, they have batted in the top order, averaging 60+ there. 7 hours ago, raki05 said: Manju is born jealous person. He jealous anything near perfect and has habit of questioning successful people. Players like Jadega and Pollard are more successful than him and that's why they thrashed him while he tried to troll them. what or how Manju is though is irrelevant to the numbers being discussed where Tendulkar is usually only able to compete with likes of Kallis when he comes in at a score of 100 or more. Edited July 22, 2020 by zen Link to comment
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