Indian Batsmen averaging close to 60 in Test cricket

[kaptaan]

https://twitter.com/cric_archivist/status/1223820142741581824?s=20

[kaptaan]

Can someome post the pic.

 

Is this the closest we ever got to avg 60 in Test cricket ?  Min runs : 5000

Edited September 1, 2020 by kaptaan

[Stan AF]

 

 

This screengrab is taken during Sachin's hundred in Trinidad 2002. If we take a 50 Test cut off, is this the closest he (or any Indian) has gone to the 60 run average mark? I remember Rahul Dravid averaged 58 plus after the Jamaica Test 2006 but I don't recall anyone touching 60.

[Vk1]

i wonder if cricket statisticians can arrive at a common metric that weighs in 4th innings runs, nature of pitch, rank of opposition, context etc and give a holistic average. That can help us rate batsmen/bowlers better

[Straight Drive]

Sunny at some point of time in his career ?

[kohli]

Dravid after 104 test-8981 run - avg 58.70

[kohli]

Peak avg after 50th test

Sachin: 58.87 (90th test)
Dravid: 58.75 (104th test)
Gavaskar: 57.47 (57th test)

[zen]

Gavaskar and Dravid achieved it by playing in the top order (majority of their games), while Tendulkar batted in the MO (199 of his 200 Tests). I would give more weightage to top order batsmen' avg.  At #4, Tendulkar tends to do well when he comes in at the score 100 or more (does not mean that he has never done well when he came in before the score of 100). If Tendulkar batted more in the top order in tests, I would not be surprised if his avg were less than 50:

 

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by zen

[New guy]

11 minutes ago, zen said:

Gavaskar and Dravid achieved it by playing in the top order (majority of their games), while Tendulkar batted in the MO (199 of his 200 Tests). I would give more weightage to top order batsmen' avg.  At #4, Tendulkar tends to do well when he comes in at the score 100 or more (does not mean that he has never done well when he came in before the score of 100). If Tendulkar batted more in the top order in tests, I would not be surprised if his avg were less than 50:

 

 

 

 

Bullshit  considering Tendulkar adapted to any situation i would say he would average 60 in top order.

[zen]

12 minutes ago, New guy said:

Bullshit  considering Tendulkar adapted to any situation i would say he would average 60 in top order.

Dream on! .... If he could avg 60 playing in the top order in tests, he would line up to bat there like in ODIs 

Edited September 1, 2020 by zen

[cricketfan28]

Tendulkar is very good.

[Vk1]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Gavaskar and Dravid achieved it by playing in the top order (majority of their games), while Tendulkar batted in the MO (199 of his 200 Tests). I would give more weightage to top order batsmen' avg.  At #4, Tendulkar tends to do well when he comes in at the score 100 or more (does not mean that he has never done well when he came in before the score of 100). If Tendulkar batted more in the top order in tests, I would not be surprised if his avg were less than 50:

 

 

 

 

Top order feasts on flat pitches.. getting opportunities to score might be less for MO in 3rd innings while trying to declare.. they would even have to throw away the bat.. also on Indian pitches, spinners come into play late and top order atleast has time to play the less effective fast bowlers to get settled.. nbr 4 guy.. has more chances of playing with lower order in his innings... changes the momentum of their innings

[zen]

1 hour ago, Vk1 said:

Top order feasts on flat pitches.. getting opportunities to score might be less for MO in 3rd innings while trying to declare.. they would even have to throw away the bat.. also on Indian pitches, spinners come into play late and top order atleast has time to play the less effective fast bowlers to get settled.. nbr 4 guy.. has more chances of playing with lower order in his innings... changes the momentum of their innings

 

The table shows that Tendulkar does well when he comes in at a score of 100 or more. In top order, you would usually be in when the score is 100 or less (accounting for various scenarios) 

 

 

On a side note - most Ind batsmen play spin well. In fact, among strong visiting sides, it is the pace bowlers that have been a bigger threat to our batsmen. Below from 1990 to 2013: 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team India

Host country India

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 1 Jan 2014

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 20  and matches played greater than or equal to 5

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
DW Steyn (SA)	2008-2010	5	8	149.5	19	526	26	7/51	10/108	20.23	3.51	34.5	2	1
GD McGrath (AUS)	1996-2004	8	16	313.2	123	703	33	4/18	7/121	21.30	2.24	56.9	0	0
JN Gillespie (AUS)	2001-2004	7	14	259.2	64	717	33	5/56	9/80	21.72	2.76	47.1	1	0
MJ Hoggard (ENG)	2001-2006	6	11	208.4	69	513	22	6/57	7/86	23.31	2.45	56.9	1	0
GP Swann (ENG)	2008-2012	6	11	286.2	60	811	28	5/144	8/113	28.96	2.83	61.3	1	0
JM Anderson (ENG)	2006-2012	7	13	230.5	54	656	22	4/40	6/79	29.81	2.84	62.9	0	0
A Flintoff (ENG)	2001-2008	8	14	281.0	68	731	24	4/50	4/50	30.45	2.60	70.2	0	0
MS Panesar (ENG)	2006-2012	8	15	380.0	86	1071	28	6/81	11/210	38.25	2.81	81.4	2	1
Danish Kaneria (PAK)	2005-2007	6	12	367.4	62	1227	31	6/150	7/173	39.58	3.33	71.1	2	0
MG Johnson (AUS)	2008-2013	7	14	263.4	46	842	21	5/64	5/93	40.09	3.19	75.3	1	0
SK Warne (AUS)	1998-2004	9	16	459.1	95	1466	34	6/125	6/125	43.11	3.19	81.0	1	0
DL Vettori (NZ)	1999-2010	8	13	531.0	117	1388	31	6/127	6/149	44.77	2.61	102.7	2	0
M Muralitharan (SL)	1994-2009	11	14	574.5	102	1818	40	7/100	8/218	45.45	3.16	86.2	2	0

 

 

 

In matches won in Ind:

 

Pace bowlers

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team India

Host country India

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 1 Jan 2014

Match result won match

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications bowling average less than or equal to 25

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Showing 1 - 18 of 18

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
M Ntini (SA)	2008-2008	1	2	22.2	4	62	6	3/18	6/62	10.33	2.77	22.3	0	0
DW Steyn (SA)	2008-2010	2	4	65.5	10	222	18	7/51	10/108	12.33	3.37	21.9	2	1
JN Gillespie (AUS)	2001-2004	3	6	104.2	34	271	19	5/56	9/80	14.26	2.59	32.9	1	0
Shoaib Akhtar (PAK)	1999-1999	1	2	39.3	6	118	8	4/47	8/118	14.75	2.98	29.6	0	0
SM Pollock (SA)	2000-2000	2	4	73.1	31	133	9	4/24	6/67	14.77	1.81	48.7	0	0
GD McGrath (AUS)	2001-2004	3	6	122.1	54	244	16	4/55	6/94	15.25	1.99	45.8	0	0
WJ Cronje (SA)	1996-2000	3	6	47.0	19	106	6	3/23	5/49	17.66	2.25	47.0	0	0
JH Kallis (SA)	2000-2010	4	7	64.0	23	138	7	3/30	3/51	19.71	2.15	54.8	0	0
CE Cuffy (WI)	1994-1994	1	2	22.2	4	81	4	3/80	4/81	20.25	3.62	33.5	0	0
AA Donald (SA)	1996-2000	3	5	79.2	23	205	10	3/72	4/46	20.50	2.58	47.6	0	0
A Flintoff (ENG)	2006-2006	1	2	32.0	8	82	4	3/14	4/82	20.50	2.56	48.0	0	0
MS Kasprowicz (AUS)	1998-2004	3	6	109.0	25	254	12	5/28	6/104	21.16	2.33	54.5	1	0
JM Anderson (ENG)	2006-2012	3	6	96.5	25	276	13	4/40	6/79	21.23	2.85	44.6	0	0
KCG Benjamin (WI)	1994-1994	1	2	52.3	11	171	8	5/65	8/171	21.37	3.25	39.3	1	0
MJ Hoggard (ENG)	2006-2006	1	2	34.0	12	67	3	2/54	3/67	22.33	1.97	68.0	0	0
AC Cummins (WI)	1994-1994	1	1	16.0	2	45	2	2/45	2/45	22.50	2.81	48.0	0	0
L Klusener (SA)	1996-2000	3	3	45.3	5	192	8	8/64	8/139	24.00	4.21	34.1	1	0
CA Walsh (WI)	1994-1994	1	2	53.0	11	123	5	3/34	5/123	24.60	2.32	63.6	0	0

 

 

Spin bowlers

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team India

Host country India

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 1 Jan 2014

Match result won match

Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler

Qualifications bowling average less than or equal to 25

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
SD Udal (ENG)	2006-2006	1	2	25.2	5	67	5	4/14	5/67	13.40	2.64	30.4	0	0
Shahid Afridi (PAK)	1999-2005	3	6	56.5	18	114	8	3/13	5/43	14.25	2.00	42.6	0	0
N Boje (SA)	2000-2000	2	3	58.0	20	110	7	5/83	7/93	15.71	1.89	49.7	1	0
GR Robertson (AUS)	1998-1998	1	2	23.2	3	86	5	3/28	5/86	17.20	3.68	28.0	0	0
Saqlain Mushtaq (PAK)	1999-1999	2	4	105.2	25	287	14	5/93	10/187	20.50	2.72	45.1	2	1
GP Swann (ENG)	2012-2012	2	4	96.2	25	229	11	4/43	8/113	20.81	2.37	52.5	0	0
Danish Kaneria (PAK)	2005-2005	1	2	64.0	18	173	7	5/127	7/173	24.71	2.70	54.8	1	0

 

 

Talking about Tendulkar, one of the key occasions where he  played spin well was in that Mumbai test v Aus w/ Laxman in 2004 where McGrath and Gillespie did well too - Link 

 

 

Overall, if Tendulkar batted in top order, I would not be surprised to see him avg less than 50. The pressure of batting in the 1st session (not losing wkts) v strong fresh pace bowlers and 2-4 fielders in slips could have been a challenge. Even when he has come in with the score of 100 or less, he has struggled relatively. If he were comfortable in the top order, he had plenty of opportunities to bat there and make that position his own! 

Edited September 1, 2020 by zen

[Skipper]

If Tendulkar would have got chance to open on test like odi his average would have been  near 70. As on flat pitches on india which start turning from day 2 onwards , where many great pacers have been belted like no tomorrow would have been easier for Tendulkar. Even Dhawan and shivsundar das kind of batsmen have decent average in India .... shivsundar das and sadgopan Ramesh has batted well even against Washim Akram during 99 test around. Also most of the teams plays many of their test series at home no doubt that Tendulkar would have avg around 70-75. 

[zen]

22 minutes ago, Skipper said:

If Tendulkar would have got chance to open on test like odi his average would have been  near 70. As on flat pitches on india which start turning from day 2 onwards , where many great pacers have been belted like no tomorrow would have been easier for Tendulkar. Even Dhawan and shivsundar das kind of batsmen have decent average in India .... shivsundar das and sadgopan Ramesh has batted well even against Washim Akram during 99 test around. Also most of the teams plays many of their test series at home no doubt that Tendulkar would have avg around 70-75. 

Sehwag avg 55 (Almost Bradmanesque in Asia with his SR and Avg combination), Dravid 49, Gambhir 42 in top order at home .... so it is good to know that you think Tendulkar could avg 70-75!

Edited September 1, 2020 by zen

[zen]

@Rasgulla   Buddy, more interesting stuff for you:

 

• 500 or more runs in a series: N
• 3 or more 100s in a series: N
• 4th innings performance: N
• Performance v when both McGrath+Warne are playing: N
• Top order batting: N 

 

He is supposed to avg 60-75

Edited September 1, 2020 by zen

[coffee_rules]

2 hours ago, cricketfan28 said:

Tendulkar is very good.

This is not twitter with a character limit. You can type more than one line or one sentence, you know.

[coffee_rules]

4 minutes ago, zen said:

@Rasgulla   Buddy, more interesting stuff for you:

 

• 500 or more runs in a series: N
• 3 or more 100s in a series: N
• 4th innings performance: N
• Performance v when both McGrath+Warne are playing: N
• Top order batting: N 

 

He is supposed to avg 60-75

In b4, you guys start giggling about sari pictures, here is a stat for you,

 

After 2003 till 2006, we had a handicap in Tendulkar. Look at his stats in that period , He had a tennis elbow but still played. Post 2007 till 2011 he averages 63

2003-2006      29 matches Avg 44 100s-4
2007-2011WC 44 matches Avg 63 100s-16

 

[cricketfan28]

4 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

This is not twitter with a character limit. You can type more than one line or one sentence, you know.

lol, its just laziness not character limit.

[Skipper]

57 minutes ago, zen said:

Sehwag avg 55 (Almost Bradmanesque in Asia with his SR and Avg combination), Dravid 49, Gambhir 42 in top order at home .... so it is good to know that you think Tendulkar could avg 70-75!

You are saying as if Afridi is compared with aforementioned batsmens for opening slot and not Tendulkar and btw these batsmen a are not rated by Wisden as second best after bardman........I am sure Tendulkar would have scored better on indian pitches against aus and sa fast bowlers who were best of that era and against whom Tendulkar already has one of the best avg at their homes. Definetely Tendulkar has avg better against those fast bowler than ur stalwarts.