Why indian spinners getting mauled while Indian batsmen cannot do the same for opposition spinners

[prudent_kreeda]

The more and more matches being played , it is evident every Indian spinner is getting smacked all over .

 By 2017  - Ash & Jadeja were so toothless we had to drop them .

 By 2019 -  Novelty of Kujdeep vanished and is out of the team .

 Currently - Chahal does not know where to hide , if this continues like this his days will be numbered. 

 Jadeja  -  Is ineffective but getting a lifeline now due to good batting & gun fielding Plus Injury to Hardik.

 

Thus we do not have even one spinner of experience who we feel comfortable about in major WC tournament going forward. 

At the same time ,  Indian batsmen are not able to smack opposition team spinners as often . May be a Pandya , Rohit do it sometimes .

One can understand if it is Rashid Khan , but india is not even scoring  7+  per over consistently against spinners like Santner , Sodhi, Zampa ,Rashid, Moin , Some bangla lefties , Shakib , Walsh Jr.  In fact in several matches in a Major tourney india has lost the match to spinners 

This is going to hurt India very hard in WC in next 2-3 years .  

 

Not able to make out why it is so , where these opposition spinners score over our spinners ? 

 

1. Is it due to far superior skill sets ?  Do not think major gap between Rashid (Eng) , Zampa , Shadab  &  Chahal

2. Is it a big change in bowling style ?  Not a great deal as such . All of the above leggies do not flight much. may be they bowl googlies a bit more .

3. Is it in speed of delivery -  Chahal & even Rashid bowl around  83- 88 K , while rest bowl around 85-90 K . Not a big difference . (Even 90-95K bowler like Jaddu is also getting hit .) 

4. Is it in difference in batsmen's style of batting ? - true to some extent , but have seen players who do not sweep , reverse sweep  also taking boundaries very often  like Hetmeyer, Pooran, Smith , Bairstow , Root , Williamson , Taylor, Warner, Finch , Stokes, Oh .. quite many ....

5. Is it that Indian players do not attack spinners much -  Problem is whenever they try to attack they get out.  

 

Anyone has clue why it is so ? 

 

 

 

 

[prudent_kreeda]

i think need to take out taylor , Stokes  . They do quite a bitof  sweep/ r sweep stuff.

[Vk1]

Chahal's biggest weakness is his ineffective googly and his topspinner/flipper doesnt have the zip. Wrist spinners thrive on these two variations in LOIs. 

Kuldeep is too slow to begin with and has confidence issues. 

Jadeja the conventional finger spinner by default cannot be a matchwinner. 

 

Our best bets are rahul chahar and bishnoi. Those two should be groomed with special attention. 

 

On our batsman being ineffective, historically we have been good at playing the conventional wrist/finger spinners.. these fastish darters bowl lot of googlies/ top spinners /sliders.. also since raina/yuvi left the team, quality left handers in the middle/lower order have been missing.

[Lone Wolf]

Our batsman suck badly while playing slog sweeps forget about reverse.  Only player I see who's comfortable is Ishan Kishan.  Even Samson looks to play straight instead of targeting Cow corner or square leg.  Playing leggies with straight bat is outright defensive. 

[IndianRenegade]

Reminds me of this Bhajji interview where he laments how actual turners of the ball are ignored in favor of bowlers who just bowl straight.

 

https://sportstar.thehindu.com/magazine/harbhajan-singh-finger-spinners-anil-kumble-ganguly-dhoni-kohli-cricket-tests-spin-bowling/article31039446.ece/amp/

[nsareen]

i feel the local bowlers have a better knowledge of the pace & trajectory to bowl on these surfaces, on the contrary chahal is only a flight bowler, doesn’t have a faster one or a zipping google, hence he gets hit for more boundaries & sundar doesn’t spin at all so can be played by local batsmen once they figure that out. India has a reputation of going safe, else if they were bold they could have tried somebody who the aussies have not played much, bishnoi or tewatia could have been a better choice in T20’s as both are street smart bowlers.


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[gakgupta]

swepson looks really really good...

He is getting zip of the surface....

He is looking many times better than any of our wrist spinners

[prudent_kreeda]

17 hours ago, nsareen said:

i feel the local bowlers have a better knowledge of the pace & trajectory to bowl on these surfaces, on the contrary chahal is only a flight bowler, doesn’t have a faster one or a zipping google, hence he gets hit for more boundaries & sundar doesn’t spin at all so can be played by local batsmen once they figure that out. India has a reputation of going safe, else if they were bold they could have tried somebody who the aussies have not played much, bishnoi or tewatia could have been a better choice in T20’s as both are street smart bowlers.


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In that case in india Zampa & Agar out bowled  our spinners in India last year ?  Indian spinners should have excelled .

[nsareen]

 
In that case in india Zampa & Agar out bowled  our spinners in India last year ?  Indian spinners should have excelled .

indian spinners did well, at times the visitor spinners do well, we have seen it with moeen ali, nathan lyon, santner, sodhi & many others.. but generally speaking our spinners are not with a lot of variety, more one dimensional, jadeja finds it hard to slow it down & chahal & kuldeep find it hard to speed it up a bit.. good bowlers can maintain the balance in between.


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[sage]

Indian batsman are living on a reputation inherited from generations of greats. Our modern players have sleepless nights dreading Moeen Ali

[putrevus]

Guy like Murali troubled almost every Indian batsmen in SL but generally previous generation Indian batsmen played spin very well. Sehwag was a beast against spin. Other than Pujara I don't see any other batsmen including Kohli being good against spinners. They are so tentative in  their defense and footwork.Mayank looks good but it is early days to judge him.

[Sandeep99]

You need guts to take on spinners. You need to create your timing. Indian top order is very cautious and can't really dominate spinners.

[prudent_kreeda]

Its becoming a patters now. Against India each team is going for fastish spinners who bowl at the wickets mostly and make the ball zip through  . Also make the ball to deviate a little and change the pace . Most of the indian batsmen are not able to get them away. 

Makes me think we are banking on type of spinners not of this type . Both Chahal & Kuldeep are slow  which provides time for the batsmen to attack. 

Time  for India to find another set of spinners who can bowl quicker and have control over 2-3 variations .- Rahul Chahar , Bishnoi , Sundar , Axar ??? ( even though last 2 are finger spinners, would still give a try). 

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

Unless they pick players who are good in slog sweeping we are gonaa suck ball* again & again.  Faster leggies are useless when they are attacked with slog sweeps rather than going down the track. 

Rahul Chahar is much much better leggie than Yuzi Chahal will ever gonna be.  He is 31 years now & still hasn't improved much. 

[express bowling]

As @prudent_kreeda says, we need fast and zippy wrist spinners. They are very difficult to hit. Batsmen have to take extra risks against them in T20s and will get out.

 

I will start with Rahul Chahar in place of Chahal and develop Bishnoi quickly.

Edited December 8, 2020 by express bowling

[Real McCoy]

Most of our spinners look like deer in headlights when someone like Maxwell is playing unorthodox shots. Our spinners are not game aware to the moving around the crease and switch hitting of modern t20 batsmen. We need someone like R Chahar or even Krunal who have some ability to bowl yorkers. Chahar even goes around the crease to confuse the batsmen when under pressure. We need such tactics to be competitive. Also our field setup and bowing to the field has to be improved. Swepson and zampa did this very well. I'm not even going to the catching and ground fielding where the Aussies outperformed Indians

[rkt.india]

23 hours ago, Cricspin said:

 

Tendulkar and many other older Indian players did well against great spinners without slog sweep and reverse sweeps.. he may chose to play an unconventional paddle sweep once in a while but it wasn't a necessity. The quality of spinners going around can be smashed without ugly sweeps.

 

Blame it on skill and application 

Tendulkar and many other older Indian players didn't have to score at 150 SR.

[New guy]

7 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Tendulkar and many other older Indian players didn't have to score at 150 SR.

But they could have if needed. You can easily tell a player who is good against spin vs those who are not

[rkt.india]

2 hours ago, New guy said:

But they could have if needed. You can easily tell a player who is good against spin vs those who are not

Irrespective of how good you are, you have to take risk and that would lead to the dismissal. Those guys have also struggled even against many average spinners.

Edited December 9, 2020 by rkt.india