Navdeep Saini is overrated.

[express bowling]

15 minutes ago, putrevus said:

What you are saying is good in theory but it hurts player who is being dropped for no reason.Why would the big three want to be rested to get some wickets against weaker teams when they doing actual slogging against tougher teams.

 

India plays so many A tours and these players should be playing in other formats which they are doing.

 

These are players you are dealing with and their emotion and careers, Any player can understand if he is dropped for a better player but to be dropped for player just to give experience is ridiculous.

 

Why play Pujara  in home tests against so called weak teams. Why not give new batsman their debut so they are ready for Australia or New Zealand away from home, I don't think India will miss Pujara much in home tests.

 

 

Talking primarily about pacers.

 

Pacers are overworked with so much international cricket going on.

 

Resting just 1 pacer by rotation would be welcome for everybody if we are playing Afghanistan etc.

 

The choice of batsmen should always lean towards as many all condition batters as possible. 

[putrevus]

5 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Talking primarily about pacers.

 

Pacers are overworked with so much international cricket going on.

 

Resting just 1 pacer by rotation would be welcome for everybody if we are playing Afghanistan etc.

 

The choice of batsmen should always lean towards as many all condition batters as possible. 

The pacers if they are overworked always have liberty to take rest. It applies to all players India plays so many matches , Kohli takes off  time to time.

 

Ishant and Umesh do not play in other formats so they are not over worked and they don't want to take rest . Bumrah is given ample rest in other formats , Shami also has been rested from time to time. 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by putrevus

[express bowling]

12 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

This has to be one of the dumbest threads I must have witnessed. Here is Saini playing his first test and people have opinions like this. Having said I was surprised today that the tv screen dispalyed his first class average which is 28 I would imagine some pace sensation like him should average in the low 20s atleast in the first class level to be called a pace sensation He sure has pace but he did not bowl at full tilt today. @express bowling any reasons? I have seen him bowl 150s and trouble batsmen last year. What happened. He was barely touching 145 that too rarely. Both him and Bumrah were grunting when bowling bouncers. I could understand Bumrah because he needs some rest but Saini should be up and ready for his debut test. I heard the commentary from the original feed and someone aussie homer catering to Aussie audience was saying "Indian medium pacers". And to be honest our pacers rarely bowled pace today. I saw Labu standing way outside the crease. Bowling coach must be given a kick up his arse. bowlers are dropping like flies and cant bowl quick. whats happening.

 

 

Bro, the pitch was very very flat and sluggish. Plus there was nominal seam movement on offer.

 

Bumrah still bowled 138 k to 144 k with some bounce and excellent accuracy.

 

Saini is not running in as well as he used to. Looks a bit out of rhythm. I can share older videos of his bowling in case you want to compare.

 

I don't think he will bowl at full pace and accuracy till the time he gets in rhythm. Plus the slow pitch did not help.

 

Arun needs to work some more with Saini to get him back to his old self.

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

The pacers if they are overworked always have liberty to take rest. It applies to all players India plays so many matches , Kohli takes off  time to time.

 

Ishant and Umesh do not play in other formats so they are not over worked and they don't want to take rest . Bumrah is given ample rest in other formats , Shami also has been rested from time to time. 

 

 

 

Ishant

Umesh

Saini / Siraj 

 

was possible against Bangladesh etc.

 

Umesh needs to be phased out anyway.

[Amit228]

6 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

I never consider domestic performances as the sole parameter for choosing international players.

 

It is just one of the parameters ... provided the player has other qualities needed for international cricket.

 

Every selector, captain and coach follow this approach too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some of the best pacers in Ranji Trophy have been Joginder Sharma, Rishi Dhawan, Vinay Kumar etc. 

 

Why were those medium pacers not selected ahead of Bumrah and Shami ?

 

How did the selectors know that Bumrah and Shami would be better than those Ranji greats?

 

What do you think ?

 

 

 

By watching them bowl in lots and lots of FC matches.

 

 

 

Fine ... you choose Thakur if you get the chance.  

 

It's not about choosing thakur.. (i don't rate him either) but i had to point out this because u have been shifting goal post wrt player...

 

When i aimed at saini .. u were quick to bring his domestic exploits to his defence.. u even mentioned how he is not in form now nd should hv been given chances when he was in form.. where he was in form? In domestic eh?

 

Now u are saying domestic record doesn't matter much??

 

U either can have a cake or eat it..

Different yardsticks for different people?? Doesn't this reeks of hypocrisy..

 

So if we are not choosing domestic record for a bowler than what what should we choose?

 

Are u suggesting emulating our neighbours who in the same step scorned off domestic records nd handed caps to alleged teens with express pace going by hype.. nd now are busy pulling their hair after the phainty they received.

 

I hope saini performs well but defending his shabby performance ( till now) by pulling domestic records nd than in same breath completely scorning off Thakur's domestic exploits isn't any good.

 

[Bhoot]

29 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

This has to be one of the dumbest threads I must have witnessed. Here is Saini playing his first test and people have opinions like this. Having said I was surprised today that the tv screen dispalyed his first class average which is 28  

Which is exactly why I created this thread. A guy with FC avg of 28 is being hyped to the moon. 

If you compare smone yet to play test cricket with the likes of Brett Lee (lol) you should also be ready to face the music when the said player bowls like rubel Hussain. 

 

It goes both ways. 

 

Also he is not that fast.. Every time he plays for India he avgs mid 130s..then we have his supporters come up with "he is tired.. Out of form.. Inured.. Mentally shattered" b. S. 

 

In short.. ICF favorites dont perform badly coz of lack of skills.. They perform badly because they are not in form or injured or etc.. 

 

I'll stick to my gun if he bowls 20 overs he will leak 100 runs with max 2 wickets. I can bet my house on it. You can just see the way has bowled so far in intnl cricket (albeit limited overs) n ipl.. The guy doesn't have any plan he will always bowl 2 poor deliveries every over. 

 

And he is 28 not gonna improve suddenly 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Bhoot

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Ishant

Umesh

Saini / Siraj 

 

was possible against Bangladesh etc.

 

Umesh needs to be phased out anyway.

If Shami wanted to play why do you want to stop him.  If Siraj and Saini perform well they have to phase Umesh out.Why are we in rush to phase out a rare fast bowler from India . Umesh is fit and very good fielder. When all are fit he is fourth in pecking order for overseas tests.

 

Saini and Siraj have time to prove otherwise.

[Amit228]

4 minutes ago, Bhoot said:

Which is exactly why I created this thread. A guy with FC avg of 28 is being hyped to the moon. 

If you compare smone yet to play test cricket with the likes of Brett Lee (lol) you should also be ready to face the music when the said player bowls like rubel Hussain. 

 

It goes both ways. 

 

 

People here have different yardsticks for different players. Saini has so much of support from ICF.. he has more hype than a siraj here... Nd for what? Because he can bowl quick devoid of any brain.

 

I hope he performs or atleast matches siraj performance for all the hype he has been receiving.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Amit228

[express bowling]

2 minutes ago, Amit228 said:

It's not about choosing thakur.. (i don't rate him either) but i had to point out this because u have been shifting goal post wrt player...

 

When i aimed at saini .. u were quick to bring his domestic exploits to his defence.. u even mentioned how he is not in form now nd should hv been given chances when he was in form.. where he was in form? In domestic eh?

 

Now u are saying domestic record doesn't matter much??

 

U either can have a cake or eat it..

Different yardsticks for different people?? Doesn't this reeks of hypocrisy..

 

So if we are not choosing domestic record for a bowler than what what should we choose?

 

 

You did not understand what I said.

 

Generally, the process for selection is ... 

 

1. Identity players who seem to have the qualities needed for international cricket.

 

2. Among those players, choose those who are performing in domestic cricket + A-team series.

 

This is the process which is actually followed for selection.

 

Both parameters are important.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Amit228 said:

 

Are u suggesting emulating our neighbours who in the same step scorned off domestic records nd handed caps to alleged teens with express pace going by hype.. nd now are busy pulling their hair after the phainty they received.

 

I hope saini performs well but defending his shabby performance ( till now) by pulling domestic records nd than in same breath completely scorning off Thakur's domestic exploits isn't any good.

 

 

 

It is not an either / or approach.

 

Both are needed.

 

Look at the part above.

[Bhoot]

I'm no fan of Thakur but the poor guy gets abused after 12 odis...why different yardsticks?? 

 

Don't tell me saini has more talent than thakur coz talent isn't worth shyt if u dnt perform. So far thakur has won India 2 matches. In 12 odis. 

 

Saini has bowling avg resembling kohlis batting avg and economy of 6+ and bowls like smone who doesn't have any idea or plan.. Just like  a varun aaron

[Forever Indian]

15 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Bro, the pitch was very very flat and sluggish. Plus there was nominal seam movement on offer.

 

Bumrah still bowled 138 k to 144 k with some bounce and excellent accuracy.

 

Saini is not running in as well as he used to. Looks a bit out of rhythm. I can share older videos of his bowling in case you want to compare.

 

I don't think he will bowl at full pace and accuracy till the time he gets in rhythm. Plus the slow pitch did not help.

 

Arun needs to work some more with Saini to get him back to his old self.

What do you reckon Saini's key strengths are? I thought he would get good bounce with his height but seems like his action is as if he is floating the ball without hitting the seam hard like Shami or Bumrah.

 

Even though he is bowling high 130s/ low 140ks, his balls are sitting on the pitch rather than hurrying the batsmen. Even Siraj who is 5ks or more slower seems faster if it were not for Speed gun reading.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Forever Indian

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, putrevus said:

If Shami wanted to play why do you want to stop him.  If Siraj and Saini perform well they have to phase Umesh out.Why are we in rush to phase out a rare fast bowler from India . Umesh is fit and very good fielder. When all are fit he is fourth in pecking order for overseas tests.

 

Saini and Siraj have time to prove otherwise.

 

 

Shami is playing too much cricket now. Need to keep him fresh for big matches.

 

Umesh has performed poorly in overseas tests for a long time. Still bowls like a rookie half the time after 10 years in international cricket.  Why do you want to keep him ?

[Trichromatic]

2 minutes ago, Forever Indian said:

What do you reckon Saini's key strengths are? I thought he would get good bounce with his height but seems like his action is as if he is floating the ball without hitting the seam hard like Shami or Bumrah.

 

Even though he is bowling high 130s/ low 140ks, his balls are sitting on the pitch rather than hurrying the batsmen. Even Siraj who is 5ks or more slower seems faster if it were not for Speed gun reading.

 

How tall is Navdeep Saini?

[Suhaan]

32 minutes ago, Bhoot said:

Which is exactly why I created this thread. A guy with FC avg of 28 is being hyped to the moon. 

If you compare smone yet to play test cricket with the likes of Brett Lee (lol) you should also be ready to face the music when the said player bowls like rubel Hussain. 

 

It goes both ways. 

 

Also he is not that fast.. Every time he plays for India he avgs mid 130s..then we have his supporters come up with "he is tired.. Out of form.. Inured.. Mentally shattered" b. S. 

 

In short.. ICF favorites font perform badly coz of lack of skills.. They perform badly because they are not in form or injured or etc.. 

 

I'll stick to my gun if he bowls 20 overs he will leak 100 runs with max 2 wickets. I can bet my house on it. You can just see the he has bowled so far in intnl cricket (albeit limited overs) n ipl.. The guy doesn't have any plan he wi ways bowl 2 poor deliveries every over. 

 

 

No where he's hyped to the moon,its only few pace inthusiast(count me in) who talk good about him,but he's criticized as well by us , perhaps you haven't gone through those post on other thread,look at @express bowling
@Mosher
@rkt.india
@Forward Defence
@Rightarmfast

 guys have criticized him too when it was needed, don't think he was ever overhyped, majority of posts talk sanity,you can't pick random posts and call it overhype,the other day i had an argument , he's not here for his pace alone ,if it had been ever like this ,we could have given debuts to randondom guy operating at 140+ ,sure he didn't do any good on this tour,but he is not taking someone else's deserved spot,he earned it,his current from is terrible which i cannot deny

Edited January 7, 2021 by Suhaan

[Real McCoy]

9 minutes ago, Bhoot said:

Which is exactly why I created this thread. A guy with FC avg of 28 is being hyped to the moon. 

If you compare smone yet to play test cricket with the likes of Brett Lee (lol) you should also be ready to face the music when the said player bowls like rubel Hussain. 

 

It goes both ways. 

 

Also he is not that fast.. Every time he plays for India he avgs mid 130s..then we have his supporters come up with "he is tired.. Out of form.. Inured.. Mentally shattered" b. S. 

 

In short.. ICF favorites dont perform badly coz of lack of skills.. They perform badly because they are not in form or injured or etc.. 

 

I'll stick to my gun if he bowls 20 overs he will leak 100 runs with max 2 wickets. I can bet my house on it. You can just see the way has bowled so far in intnl cricket (albeit limited overs) n ipl.. The guy doesn't have any plan he will always bowl 2 poor deliveries every over. 

 

And he is 28 not gonna improve suddenly 

 

 

I can see from that point of view. He can give a pressure release ball when he bowls short and wide. But what are our options. You don't think Shardul or Natarajan will perform any better, do you? My pick was Kuldeep to take Umesh's place if not then Saini. Kuldeep especially since its Sydney which offers some turn.

[Serpico]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

I would do exactly the same thing. If they did what are suggesting them do means you are kicking out Umesh who is perfectly fine bowler out of the team.

 

You are talking as if Saini is 20 and Umesh is 40. Saini is 28 and Umesh is 33. Umesh is a beast at home. Is Saini better than Umesh overseas is the question, these two tests will go long way in proving it.

you have conveniently ignored siraj from the discussion. He already outbowled umesh in the overseas match in the debut game itself.

 

Being great at home is fine but Rohit is also beast at home, so why did he not play as many matches as Rahane? Players who can perform in away conditions are harder to find and hence teams value such players more. Right now Rohit has better batting avg than rahane but we all know who gets more respect as a test batsman between the two. Even if our third pacer had not picked a single wicket in last home season, we would have still won the matches thanks to ashwin and jadeja. So the priority should be much more than simply selecting most senior players against bangladesh.

[express bowling]

2 minutes ago, Forever Indian said:

What do you reckon Saini's key strengths are? I thought he would get good bounce with his height but seems like his action is as if he is floating the ball without hitting the seam hard like Shami or Bumrah.

 

 

Very good point.

 

Check the first page of this thread and my observations about Saini.

 

He lacks bounce off his length balls. The balls hit the sweet spot of the bat due to this reason.

 

He needs to bowl a tad shorter and hit the deck harder to hit the splice of the bat.

 

In his best spells, he has done this.

 

Saini's strength used to be targeting the top of off stump ball after ball at skiddy quick pace, with seam movement both ways. And bowling good bouncers inbetween.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Forever Indian said:

 

Even though he is bowling high 130s/ low 140ks, his balls are sitting on the pitch rather than hurrying the batsmen. Even Siraj who is 5ks or more slower seems faster if it were not for Speed gun reading.

 

He did not hit the deck hard enough today.

[Real McCoy]

22 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Bro, the pitch was very very flat and sluggish. Plus there was nominal seam movement on offer.

 

Bumrah still bowled 138 k to 144 k with some bounce and excellent accuracy.

 

Saini is not running in as well as he used to. Looks a bit out of rhythm. I can share older videos of his bowling in case you want to compare.

 

I don't think he will bowl at full pace and accuracy till the time he gets in rhythm. Plus the slow pitch did not help.

 

Arun needs to work some more with Saini to get him back to his old self.

That makes sense. The nature of this pitch will be shown when both sides have batted but it does look flat to me. Even aussies in other forums agree that its a road

[express bowling]

22 minutes ago, Bhoot said:

I'm no fan of Thakur but the poor guy gets abused after 12 odis...why different yardsticks?? 

 

 

 

In recent times, Shardul has developed good slower balls and knuckle balls. He is not predictable to batsmen who want to hit him.

 

Because of this, he looks like a much better T20 bowler than Saini in 2020-21 atleast.

 

And Shardul may do decently in ODIs too, provided he does not overuse the slower balls.

 

Saini does not look like a good T20 bowler in 2020-21 atleast. How he fares in ODIs needs to be seen but based on current form, I would pick Shardul over Saini in ODIs too. But this may change if their forms change.

 

But Shardul is not a test quality bowler yet.

 

Different formats different requirements.

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by express bowling

[Real McCoy]

5 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Very good point.

 

Check the first page of this thread and my observations about Saini.

 

He lacks bounce off his length balls. The balls hit the sweet spot of the bat due to this reason.

 

He needs to bowl a tad shorter and hit the deck harder to hit the splice of the bat.

 

In his best spells, he has done this.

 

Saini's strength used to be targeting the top of off stump ball after ball at skiddy quick pace, with seam movement both ways. And bowling good bouncers inbetween.

 

 

 

He did not hit the deck hard enough today.

If he did hit the deck hard, he would get bounce. Your statements are contradictory. Also if he bowls short of a good length, he is more susceptible for leave on length and if the batsmen are set, they may play pulls and hooks. which is fine but the field settings should be according to plan