Navdeep Saini is overrated.

[raki05]

1 hour ago, Amit228 said:

Swing nd seam does make a bowler? what makes u think otherwise.. does pace alone guarantee success?? Then what made McGrath, pollock, vaas, akram et al great bowlers??

They weren't express like lee or Akhtar.. but had immaculate control over their line nd length with great skills of moving ball both in air nd from the pitch...

 

Even current crop of top test bowler aren't that express.. in test cricket if u can move the ball (new nd old ball) both ways nd can operate in decent pace bracket of 130-140kmph than u are bound to succeed..

 

I will happily take a bowler with 130-140 pace bracket with skills to move ball both ways than a wayward skill less bowler operating at 145kmph+

 

Pace without movement is trivial in international cricket..

 

Bhuvi last played a test match in south Africa in early 2018 where he performed good nd picked 10 wickets in two matches.

 

After that he hasn't played any test matches owing to his shabby fitness nd injuries.. 

 

First of all the afore mentioned bowlers were all operating at more than 135 to 145 range barring Vaas and Vass was not overall success. Those bowlers were only became slow in their old age so no they were not trundler in test like bhuvi / abbas also they were not midget to start off with. For a test bowlers to get successful in overseas you need to be tall considerable pace around 135 to 145 even in aus lineup only Hazzlewood swings or else they are all hit the deck. Do you know the reason why cummins din't get success on english pitches because he was not able to swing like anderson or broad or even like hazzlewood.  Still cummins is number one bowler because of bounce , speed and line and length. Saini just playing first test and you have started judging him and given all sorts of adjective like spray gun, doesn't work hard etc... He is tall and fast bowlers which are rare commodity he just needs to fix his line and length and he can be a potential test class bowlers. Regarding bhuvi team management only select him for swinging pitches do you know why if swing is everything why don't he play all test matches even during his hay days he doesn't use to play all test matches in a series and he was 3rd pacer after sami and bumrah and always use to exchange place with Yadav. Though during dhoni time bhuvi,praveen and vinay were the attack which lead us in Aus and we all know what happened to those swing and seam bolwers.

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

If he did hit the deck hard, he would get bounce. Your statements are contradictory.

 

Which statements ?

 

Quote

Also if he bowls short of a good length, he is more susceptible for leave on length and if the batsmen are set, they may play pulls and hooks. which is fine but the field settings should be according to plan

 

 

Not short of a good length.

 

Shorter side of good length is ideal for Saini on flatter pitches. It will hit the top of off stump for him then. 

 

He bowled lots of half volleys and fuller side of good length stuff today.

 

Fuller side of good length is ideal for Bumrah but not for Saini ... because Saini lacks natural bounce.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by express bowling

[Forever Indian]

20 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Very good point.

 

Check the first page of this thread and my observations about Saini.

 

He lacks bounce off his length balls. The balls hit the sweet spot of the bat due to this reason.

 

He needs to bowl a tad shorter and hit the deck harder to hit the splice of the bat.

 

In his best spells, he has done this.

 

Saini's strength used to be targeting the top of off stump ball after ball at skiddy quick pace, with seam movement both ways. And bowling good bouncers inbetween.

 

 

 

He did not hit the deck hard enough today.

 

10 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

If he did hit the deck hard, he would get bounce. Your statements are contradictory. Also if he bowls short of a good length, he is more susceptible for leave on length and if the batsmen are set, they may play pulls and hooks. which is fine but the field settings should be according to plan

 

Getting bounce off length is more to do with the Action. For example, Bumrah has a whippy action where he uses his wrist and elbow hyperextension to generate bounce and Seam.

 

Those who don't have Hyperextension use their wrists like Steyn, Chris Broad, etc.. Shami uses a straight elbow and hits the seam almost full on to generate bounce.

 

These are from Actions rather than Length and Actions as we know are not easy to change especially at this stage of career for Saini.

[Real McCoy]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Which statements ?

 

 

 

Not short of a good length.

 

Shorter side of good length is ideal for Saini on flatter pitches. It will hit the top of off stump for him then. 

 

He bowled lots of half volleys and fuller side of good length stuff today.

 

Fuller side of good length is ideal for Bumrah but not for Saini ... because Saini lacks natural bounce.

 

 

SCG in this test maybe a flat pitch but its not an Indian pitch. It still bounces more than an Indian pitch. So when you said short side of good length will enable Saini to hit the top of off, are you talking about India or this test in SCG. That's a narrow band of length you are asking Saini to bowl at not to mention the line. So far the way he has bowled in the ODI series and warmups and whatever we saw today, that may be asking him a lot

[express bowling]

20 minutes ago, Forever Indian said:

 

 

Getting bounce off length is more to do with the Action. For example, Bumrah has a whippy action where he uses his wrist and elbow hyperextension to generate bounce and Seam.

 

Those who don't have Hyperextension use their wrists like Steyn, Chris Broad, etc.. Shami uses a straight elbow and hits the seam almost full on to generate bounce.

 

These are from Actions rather than Length and Actions as we know are not easy to change especially at this stage of career for Saini.

 

 

Exactly  !

 

Which is why Saini needs to bowl 6 inches shorter than Bumrah to hit the top of off stump.

 

But he often ends up bowling fuller than Bumrah and floating the ball up rather than hitting the deck with the seam.

 

And he will remain an expensive bowler till he changes this.

[Real McCoy]

BTW I hope Saini breaks Cummins' bowling fingers or hand with a short ball. He has done it to Dhawan in the WC and Shami in Adelaide. its only fair that karma catches up with him

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

Prasidh Krishna should get into the Indian team.

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

SCG in this test maybe a flat pitch but its not an Indian pitch. It still bounces more than an Indian pitch. So when you said short side of good length will enable Saini to hit the top of off, are you talking about India or this test in SCG. That's a narrow band of length you are asking Saini to bowl at not to mention the line. So far the way he has bowled in the ODI series and warmups and whatever we saw today, that may be asking him a lot

 

 

Many Indian pitches are having good bounce these days. Dharamsala, Mumbai and Kolkata are good examples.

 

Saini has to target the top of off stump like every other good pacer.

 

To do this, he has to hit the area of the pitch which results in this happening.

 

For Saini, it is most likely to happen in the 7 m to 8 m length on average bounce pitches.  ( as he lacks natural bounce )  1 metre length is a lot for an international pacer to work with.

[Real McCoy]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Many Indian pitches are having good bounce these days. Dharamsala, Mumbai and Kolkata are good examples.

 

Saini has to target the top of off stump like every other good pacer.

 

To do this, he has to hit the area of the pitch which results in this happening.

 

For Saini, it is most likely to happen in the 7 m to 8 m length on average bounce pitches.  ( as he lacks natural bounce )  1 metre length is a lot for an international pacer to work with.

From what I saw today, the wicket ball he bowled to Puc was the most threatening and he bowled the last over decently today. The other balls were short and wide and all over the place. Puc may have made a mistake playing around the ball but can't expect these two at the crease to make the same mistake. But he needs to hit the length every ball with the odd bouncer and a surprise yorker.

[express bowling]

At the end of day, it must be said that neither Saini nor Siraj are likely to become Bumrah or Shami quality fast bowlers.

 

Saini lacks ability to set up batsmen and natural bounce.

Siraj lacks extra pace

 

While Bumrah and Shami have all the above qualities.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by express bowling

[Forever Indian]

5 minutes ago, express bowling said:

At the end of day, it must be said that neither Saini nor Siraj are likely to become Bumrah or Shami quality fast bowlers.

 

Saini lacks ability to set up batsmen and natural bounce.

Siraj lacks extra pace

 

While Bumrah and Shami have all the above qualities.

 

 

Siraj can add a bit of pace if he goes the Shami way, who added bit of pace as he aged - or if he decides to go Munaf way he may become even slower 

[sandeep]

25 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Siraj lacks extra pace

I think he's bowling a bit within himself at the moment to focus on accuracy and discipline.  Which is a good thing.  

 

Siraj is not a 145-150 guy, but has enough pace.  I really like him as a prospect.  And am very happy with the discipline and skill he has put up so far.  He's raw.  Not every new bowler can be a Bumrah/Cummins prodigy who just is world-class from the word go.  Ishant took 7 years to get to where he is today, Siraj is on his way.  Think back to Shami's first tour in Oz, and how he was able to bowl relative to his potential and expectations. 

 

Siraj has a bright future ahead of him.  Not saying I expect the moon from him, but he is a very high quality red ball prospect.  

[express bowling]

19 minutes ago, Forever Indian said:

Siraj can add a bit of pace if he goes the Shami way, who added bit of pace as he aged - or if he decides to go Munaf way he may become even slower 

 

 

Shami always had the ability to bowl 135 k to 145 k spells. His issue in 2013 to 2015 was that he dropped to early 130s if he had to bowl 15 + overs a day. This he rectified from mid-2016 as he got fitter.

 

Siraj is hardly touching 140 k in his faster spells even. 

[express bowling]

30 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I think he's bowling a bit within himself at the moment to focus on accuracy and discipline.  Which is a good thing.  

 

Siraj is not a 145-150 guy, but has enough pace.  I really like him as a prospect.  And am very happy with the discipline and skill he has put up so far.  He's raw.  Not every new bowler can be a Bumrah/Cummins prodigy who just is world-class from the word go.  Ishant took 7 years to get to where he is today, Siraj is on his way.  Think back to Shami's first tour in Oz, and how he was able to bowl relative to his potential and expectations. 

 

Siraj has a bright future ahead of him.  Not saying I expect the moon from him, but he is a very high quality red ball prospect.  

 

 

You know it that I have always supported Siraj because he showed wicket taking ability in A-team games. 

 

And happy to see him doing well.at such an early stage of his career.

 

He doesn't need to bowl 145-150

 

But targeting the 135 k to 145 k range is needed if he wants to become an all condition bowler.

 

Siraj's ability to set up batsmen and bowl to a plan does make one hope that he reaches Shami's pace atleast. Not hoping for him to reach Bumrah's pace.

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by express bowling

[sandeep]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

You know it that I have always supported Siraj because he showed wicket taking ability in A-team games. 

 

And happy to see him doing well.at such an early stage of his career.

 

He doesn't need to bowl 145-150

 

But targeting the 135 k to 145 k range is needed if he wants to become an all condition bowler.

 

 

I know EB, just saying that don't read too much into his speeds. I mean, we know that normally Aus speedguns run a bit higher than elsewhere - maybe they have removed that discrepancy?  Regardless, I think he can bowl quicker than he has been bowling in this series so far.  So its not a capability question.  I'd rather him focus on execution and contribute to the team bowling plan - which he is doing a really good job at - then press for a bit more pace.  Its a fine balance, and I think he's on the right side of it at the moment.  There will be days and situations that call for pushing for more pace, and I think there are good chances that he can deliver that.  

 

The big question mark for me is on his mental skills - the ability under pressure, to make micro-adjustments to lengths, lines, the capacity to recognize batsmen's plans, and counter them etc.  These are always a work in progress, with some development at lower levels, but a lot of it happens when you get the opportunity to bowl in tandem with bowlers who are really good at it -guys like Bumrah.  Siraj is very lucky in that sense - to be able to bowl along with a high quality bowler who is in his prime, and not only tell him what to do, but practice what he preaches.  This makes me very optimistic for his development.

[express bowling]

21 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I know EB, just saying that don't read too much into his speeds. I mean, we know that normally Aus speedguns run a bit higher than elsewhere - maybe they have removed that discrepancy?  Regardless, I think he can bowl quicker than he has been bowling in this series so far.  So its not a capability question.  I'd rather him focus on execution and contribute to the team bowling plan - which he is doing a really good job at - then press for a bit more pace.  Its a fine balance, and I think he's on the right side of it at the moment.  There will be days and situations that call for pushing for more pace, and I think there are good chances that he can deliver that.  

 

The big question mark for me is on his mental skills - the ability under pressure, to make micro-adjustments to lengths, lines, the capacity to recognize batsmen's plans, and counter them etc.  These are always a work in progress, with some development at lower levels, but a lot of it happens when you get the opportunity to bowl in tandem with bowlers who are really good at it -guys like Bumrah.  Siraj is very lucky in that sense - to be able to bowl along with a high quality bowler who is in his prime, and not only tell him what to do, but practice what he preaches.  This makes me very optimistic for his development.

 

 

Siraj said in an interview that Bumrah had told him which areas to bowl at when the pitch became flatter in the 2nd innings of the MCG test.

 

To his credit, Siraj could understand and execute according to Boom's advice. 

 

And it is due to this shared knowledge that we will have lots of new pacers maturing much faster than what happened a few years back.

[vishalvirsingh]

if you ask me when Umesh yadav came into international cricket ..Is Navdeep equally talented ?

 

I would say YES.

Saini was hit in the first 2 overs and hence his confidence was a bit down. Secondly Rahane brings in the debutant very late and possibly Saini must have been waiting for quite some time.

After siraj's first Spell, saini should have been asked to bowl.

 

Rahane erred in bringing Jaddu and Saini quite late. when these guys came to bowl , the batsman were fully settled. Still Saini beat Pucvoski and got his wicket , where as Siraj was trying his best with in swingers and since siraj is a lil slower , he was played well.

 

i will not be surprised if Saini gets most wickets in this test among the Pacers provided Rahane gives him some opportunity. saini bowled 7 overs where as siraj and jasprit bowled 14 overs each. ideally jaspirt should have bowled 14 ..siraj 12 and saini atleast 10 and Jaddu bowled just 3 overs where as ashwin bowled 17. jaddu should have at least got 6 to 7 overs as he strangulates the run flow and finally he also knows how to take wickets.

 

Saini had some nerves but he had to be supported specifically when he got into full flow after taking his wicket. Saini has played for india A and is a ready pacer. I agree he started with short balls but as a debutant , he had some nerves. 
Boom bowled very well and was unlucky not to get wickets.

Siraj also had immaculate Line n length exactly like hazelwood but i would prefer if siraj can go a lil fast.

More over i would like to say pucvoski and marnus showed straight defence. 

 

I have high hopes from BOOM, Saini and Siraj to deliver the knock out Punch tommorow.  Also expect ashwin to show some Magic. 

 

RISHABH missed 2 catches and both were not most difficult catches, Saha would have taken them.

 

Should Sanju Samson ( who is as good as rishabh in batting if not better) be tried out in TESTS? or SHould IShan Kishan  or BHarat be tried out.

 

Rishabh is definitely not upto the mark as a test pacer. Both KL and Rishabh are temporary/ weak wick keepers and one cannot play weak wicket keepers in TESTS. 

 

[coffee_rules]

Saini is older than Bumrah. He will adapt. TM should give him more exposure than 7 overs. Ashwin 17overs on a flat pitch needs to be looked into. We are putting too much pressure than Siraj in the 2nd match. Saini should be encouraged to hit the deck hard and give him more overs to try variations. 

[rkt.india]

12 hours ago, Amit228 said:

So u completely scorned off domestic cricket nd it's value.. just to raise stakes for saini?? Given that both thakur nd saini has similar bowling averages..

 

How did shorter thakur matched saini in domestic given his shortcomings?

 

How did u deduce that thakur lacks in most of the qualities.. nd saini doesn't?

 

Did u saw thakur bowling in a international test match along side saini to come to this conclusion... As u have completely scorned off value of their domestic record.. so how did u figured thakur will fail nd saini (who lacks in consistency and movement) will succeed when they both have similar domestic record.. nd Haven't played any full international test match yet.

Saini played most of his ranji cricket at docile Kotla while Shardul at bouncier, livelier Wankhede.

[Vk1]

Saini is not getting much bounce from good length. should focus on bowling top of off-stump line and devise a plan around that.