" Seniority " over " Current Ability ", as the main selection criterion, is preventing Team India from realizing its true potential

[AKane]

On 11/28/2021 at 10:37 AM, putrevus said:

Thakur will play in most overseas tests as you need four fast bowlers. 

Why this sudden need for fast bowlers?

 

Play the  dear spinners - spin trio, spin quartet, spinning pitch, spin helping ball, opening the bowling with spinners etc etc etc whatever....

 

As soon as we step out - Fast bowlers ... Where art thou?

 

I mean dance with the players who have made India and who India has made - SPINNERS!

[putrevus]

22 hours ago, AKane said:

Why this sudden need for fast bowlers?

 

Play the  dear spinners - spin trio, spin quartet, spinning pitch, spin helping ball, opening the bowling with spinners etc etc etc whatever....

 

As soon as we step out - Fast bowlers ... Where art thou?

 

I mean dance with the players who have made India and who India has made - SPINNERS!

What??

[AKane]

29 minutes ago, putrevus said:

What??

Oh I am just trying to point out the aspiring great teams of past

 

Aus 1970's depended on fast bowlers Lillee and Thommo inside and outside Aus

Windies 1980's/90's depended on fast bowlers inside and outside WI

Aus 2000s depended on McGrath Gillespie Lee and Warne everywhere.

 

Same with Lindwall/Miller or Trueman/Statham

 

 

India are the only ones who coddle and reward spinners at home but expect fast bowlers to pick up slack abroad. Let he who is coddled at home(spinners) do the work abroad too.....Is it unfair to expect that?

[putrevus]

11 minutes ago, AKane said:

Oh I am just trying to point out the aspiring great teams of past

 

Aus 1970's depended on fast bowlers Lillee and Thommo inside and outside Aus

Windies 1980's/90's depended on fast bowlers inside and outside WI

Aus 2000s depended on McGrath Gillespie Lee and Warne everywhere.

 

Same with Lindwall/Miller or Trueman/Statham

 

 

India are the only ones who coddle and reward spinners at home but expect fast bowlers to pick up slack abroad. Let he who is coddled at home(spinners) do the work abroad too.....Is it unfair to expect that?

I think they are changing that under Kohli as fast bowlers are playing important role at home also but you would still expect majority of work to be done by spinners at home.It comes down to  nature of the wickets and using homefield advatange.

 

I agree our spinners are coddled at home by the same token we can say other teams expect their spinners to pickup the slack when playing in India,Guy like Wagner could not find a spot but guy like Somerville played both tests.

 

Thats why I disagree when anyone compares Indian fast bowlers to those 1980s WI fast bowlers.Even Australian played two spinners when playing in India but WI rarely played even one spinner at their Zenith in India. It was fearsome foursome all the way for WI.

[express bowling]

We are on the verge of losing a golden opportunity ... of defeating SA in SA for the first time ever ... primarily because we chose to promote seniority over current ability and form, as far as our batting was concerned.

 

We may never get a SA team which is as weak as this one.

 

Even with Dravid as the coach, nothing seems to have changed 

 

 

[SRT100]

24 minutes ago, express bowling said:

We are on the verge of losing a golden opportunity ... of defeating SA in SA for the first time ever ... primarily because we chose to promote seniority over current ability and form, as far as our batting was concerned.

 

We may never get a SA team which is as weak as this one.

 

Even with Dravid as the coach, nothing seems to have changed 

 

 

 

I knew the moment that Pujara and Rahane played their once in a year innings in the 2nd Test in the 2nd innings which in the end was a meaningless contribution due to a heavy roller used in the morning, that India were doomed to retain them for the 3rd.

 

Probably have to wait another 3-4 years for this frontier to be breached.

[Texan]

53 minutes ago, express bowling said:

We are on the verge of losing a golden opportunity ... of defeating SA in SA for the first time ever ... primarily because we chose to promote seniority over current ability and form, as far as our batting was concerned.

 

We may never get a SA team which is as weak as this one.

 

Even with Dravid as the coach, nothing seems to have changed 

 

 

 

I actually feel like none of the players truly cares for the result more than fans like us. Whether it is team management, former players or commentators, everyone involved and influential in team selection matters only cares about ensuring the seniors are given a long career and they have each others backs. 

 

Most cricketers have a shelf life that is less than 10 years. There are very few exceptions like Tendulkar, Dravid, Kapil Dev and Gavaskar who are able to perform beyond that. Even great players like Sehwag and Laxman were not given this long rope that mediocre players like Pujara and Rahane have been given.

 

But it seems like other than a handful of truly Indian cricket lovers who only care about team results, others are only interested in idol worship. So we have Kohli fans, Pujara fans, Dhoni fans and Sachin fans who don't care how the team performs as long as their favorite player does well. 

 

It disappoints me no end when despite having a better team we keep losing these games due to selection policy based on seniority rather than merit. 

[Vijy]

12 hours ago, express bowling said:

We are on the verge of losing a golden opportunity ... of defeating SA in SA for the first time ever ... primarily because we chose to promote seniority over current ability and form, as far as our batting was concerned.

 

We may never get a SA team which is as weak as this one.

 

Even with Dravid as the coach, nothing seems to have changed 

 

 

things have changed under dravid: amplified backing of non-performing nos. 3-5, increased emphasis on trundling, decreased emphasis on fitness and fielding, etc. Dravid is taking us back to the decade he knows best - the 90s.

[rtmohanlal]

chepu seems to be the worst Indian batsman to have played atleast  48  inns in SENAW.   Even Sastri who played only 48  inns averaged 33.5 .

And this shameless leech was allowed to  play 82 inns for averaging a mere 32. That tells a lot about  the fortunes India had in SENAW in the past 12 years.

[Vk1]

how much are they ( rahane/pujara ) paying these websites for deflecting the attention to elsewhere?

[jf1gp_1]

This isnt a new phenomenon in India cricket. Dhoni was crucified for 8-0 loss test loss against Eng and Aus but the bottom line was openers, sachin and vvs had to be carried through both the series. Rahul was the one man standing. He along with VVS saw the writing on wall and retired. Sachin should have joined them but went on for 2 more years. 

[express bowling]

11 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said:

This isnt a new phenomenon in India cricket. Dhoni was crucified for 8-0 loss test loss against Eng and Aus but the bottom line was openers, sachin and vvs had to be carried through both the series. Rahul was the one man standing. He along with VVS saw the writing on wall and retired. Sachin should have joined them but went on for 2 more years. 

 

 

What you are saying is true. 

 

Almost every Indian superstar, after Gavaskar, stayed on for a longer period than their form warranted. 

 

That is not a professional approach and I don't support it.

 

But we have a bigger problem now in that ... even sub 40 averaging mediocre players like Rahane are getting the same unfair favour that only super duper achievers got earlier.  Even mediocre bowlers like Ishant are getting too long a rope and above average guys like Pujara are getting the same super treatment. 

 

If we have a team with 4 or 5 aging passengers, how will we reach our full potential !!

 

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by express bowling

[jf1gp_1]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

What you are saying is true. 

 

Almost every Indian superstar, after Gavaskar, stayed on for a longer period than their form warranted. 

 

That is not a professional approach and I don't support it.

 

But we have a bigger problem now in that ... even sub 40 averaging mediocre players like Rahane are getting the same unfair favour that only super duper achievers got earlier.  Even mediocre bowlers like Ishant are getting too long a rope and above average guys like Pujara are getting the same super treatment. 

 

If we have a team with 4 or 5 aging passengers, how will we reach our full potential !!

 

We always been a team were you had question mark on few senior players. Lets assume both Rahane and Pujara are dropped, next in line would be Virat, Rohit and Ashwin. Our problem is not aging players our problem is we dont use them to groom team. 

 

Someone had posted we should play one of Rahane/Pujara and develop a middle order batsman which is the right way to move forward. 

[RajBan]

12 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

What you are saying is true. 

 

Almost every Indian superstar, after Gavaskar, stayed on for a longer period than their form warranted. 

 

That is not a professional approach and I don't support it.

 

But we have a bigger problem now in that ... even sub 40 averaging mediocre players like Rahane are getting the same unfair favour that only super duper achievers got earlier.  Even mediocre bowlers like Ishant are getting too long a rope and above average guys like Pujara are getting the same super treatment. 

 

If we have a team with 4 or 5 aging passengers, how will we reach our full potential !!

 

 

I think Ganguly did not drag it either. He lost form like Pujara or Kohli, lost his place , came back for an year and half, performed at a relatively high level and then moved out after restoring his pride.

[express bowling]

3 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said:

 

We always been a team were you had question mark on few senior players. Lets assume both Rahane and Pujara are dropped, next in line would be Virat, Rohit and Ashwin. Our problem is not aging players our problem is we dont use them to groom team. 

 

Someone had posted we should play one of Rahane/Pujara and develop a middle order batsman which is the right way to move forward. 

 

 

Why play one among Rahane / Pujara ?

 

Both are failing.

 

Young batsmen have regularly put in in better performances than this duo in the last 18 months, whenever they have got chances.

 

Rohit. Kohli and Rahul will be playing as senior batters to groom the young batters anyway. 

[GautiMaan]

Every other nation, giving oppurtunities to youngsters and reaping rewards..here the selectors have developed a fetish with tricentenarians like Dhoni,Dhawan,Dk,Bk,Ishant,Rahanie,Pujara over and over.

Few highs like Aus series were because of some youngsters getting unexpected oppurtunities and the limelight has been stolen by Kohli and his PR

[rollingstoned]

Problem in kohlis tenure unlike even in Dhoni's time when like the former he also came to eventually be despised for his red ball captaincy is that he wasn't myopic and groomed players who he knew and trusted in to represent the team for the next 5-7 years at least and we reaped those rewards after 2015. I don't see any indication of that right now and it means we have a period of transition foisted on us because of bad to non existent succession planning and a desire to keep persisting with the seniors well beyond the time when it's clear to everyone that they should be put out to pasture. 

Since covid there has been no red ball domestic cricket and that also hasn't helped but still.  

Edited January 15, 2022 by rollingstoned

[express bowling]

15 minutes ago, rollingstoned said:

Problem in kohlis tenure unlike even in Dhoni's time when like the former he also came to be despised for his red ball captaincy is that he wasn't myopic and groomed players who he knew and trusted in to represent the team for the next 5-7 years at least and we reaped those rewards after 2015. I don't see any indication of that right now and it means we have a period of transition foisted on us because of bad to non existent succession planning and a desire to keep persisting with the seniors well beyond the time when it's clear to everyone that they should be put out to pasture. 

Since covid there has been no red ball domestic cricket and that also hasn't helped but still.  

 

Lack of clear vision, and hence an effective succession.plan, is a big issue.

 

Batsmen who may have the game to succeed, both away and at home, are not being promoted.

 

Washington Sundar may be one such batsman, but not sure whether he will be played as a batsman.

Edited January 15, 2022 by express bowling

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

What you are saying is true. 

 

Almost every Indian superstar, after Gavaskar, stayed on for a longer period than their form warranted. 

 

That is not a professional approach and I don't support it.

 

But we have a bigger problem now in that ... even sub 40 averaging mediocre players like Rahane are getting the same unfair favour that only super duper achievers got earlier.  Even mediocre bowlers like Ishant are getting too long a rope and above average guys like Pujara are getting the same super treatment. 

 

If we have a team with 4 or 5 aging passengers, how will we reach our full potential !!

 

 

cricket has only 4-5 real contenders (the rest are also-rans like WI, Bang, Zim, etc), so it's not so "important" to reach full potential from the perspective of BCCI. as long as their cash cow, the IPL, continues to rake in money, sponsors, and tailunt, they won't give a damn about int'l events.

[vishalvirsingh]

On 6/24/2021 at 2:09 AM, express bowling said:

In an interview in late 2019, captain Kohli said the following, " You’ll have to figure out who are the people that are very similar in their bowling skills, and you pick the senior one. "

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/who-is-prasidh-krishna-why-did-virat-kohli-mention-his-name-after-india-beat-sri-lanka-in-indore-t20i/story-LXcqQVrMkTijNQzjk3ZLsN_amp.html

 

 

Kohli did NOT say " Pick the best one  but talked about picking the senior one. 

 

Is Team India a government office of the 1980s !  Where is meritocracy ?

 

It is this policy which has resulted in Siraj being omitted despite being our most in-form pacer now and having the ability to swing the ball, a skill which is helpful in England. 

 

It had also resulted in Siraj debuting 2 years too late, despite running through A-teams in Unofficial tests  (  40 wickets from 5 Unofficial tests in 2018 )

 

There is no accountability for senior batsmen like Rahane, Pujara or Kohli. They know that they will be chosen irrespective of performance, because they are seniors and and have " performed in the past ". 

 

It is the same policy that led to Dhoni being an automatic choice despite losing form for a long time and Jadhav getting chances even when he looked out of sorts. And Dhawan playing so many T20Is although he is not good for the format.

 

I am NOT asking for a " wholesale " team change after a solitary loss. I am NOT asking for a knee-jerk reaction based team selection based on the WTC Final loss.

 

Let most of the players play the next test too. But the possibility of the seniors getting dropped, IF they don't perform, must be there. Otherwise, why would they bother performing out of their skin. 

 

Choose your best 11 players. Choose based on merit and current ability. Don't choose based on seniority.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

why were pujara and rahane played when they failed in the first test?

 

when Umesh is looking average , why was he played ahead of others?

 

when u have Prasidh and avesh ( 2 bounce bowlers), why were they not picked for any tests?

 

when ashwin was failing as a bowler, why was vihari not played in this test ahead of ashwin?

 

any batsman who hits a century ....no one including ganguly has the right to ask him to sit on bench? it is POLITICS and height of partiality. we should create a LAW that a batsman should not be dropped in the very next test after he hits a century? shreyas iyer would be frustrated.