" Seniority " over " Current Ability ", as the main selection criterion, is preventing Team India from realizing its true potential

[Suhaan]

43 minutes ago, vishalvirsingh said:

we should create a LAW that a batsman should not be dropped in the very next test after he hits a century? shreyas iyer would be frustrated.

Iyer ki choro Karun Nair yaad hai?

[express bowling]

4 hours ago, Suhaan said:

Iyer ki choro Karun Nair yaad hai?

 

 

That's was one of the worst cases of seniority culture promotion.

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

 

That's was one of the worst cases of seniority culture promotion.

I think we will see more such examples. Iyer and vihari got booted out as well, whenever trimurthi were all playing. expecting to see 1-2 more yrs of trimurthi from now

[vishalvirsingh]

On 1/15/2022 at 7:59 PM, Suhaan said:

Iyer ki choro Karun Nair yaad hai?

BHai , i scored a 35 in a 20 over match as an opener and in the next Match, i was asked to be on bench.

 

my replacement made 10. 

i felt so much anger that i called the captain and told him a lot of rubbish. 

i am surprised if shreyas iyer has not said bad things to dravid and kohli.

[express bowling]

Captain KL Rahul said in the pre match on-pitch interview that ... they are looking to carry on with same personnel. ( till the World Cup 2023 ). 

 

Added that they plan to carry on with the slow ODI starts.

 

Seemed excited that Bhuvi is back !

 

Rohit will back and will replace Shreyas. 

 

This means we will have in our ODI Playing XI

 

Dhawan

Rohit

Kohli

Bhuvi

Ashwin / Chahal 

 

 

Irrespective of their current ability and form. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by express bowling

[Adamant]

36 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Captain KL Rahul said in the pre match on-pitch interview that ... they are looking to carry on with same personnel. ( till the World Cup 2023 ). 

 

Added that they plan to carry on with the slow ODI starts.

 

Seemed excited that Bhuvi is back !

 

Rohit will back and will replace Shreyas. 

 

This means we will have in our ODI Playing XI

 

Dhawan

Rohit

Kohli

Bhuvi

Ashwin / Chahal 

 

 

Irrespective of their current ability and form. 

Rohit

Dhawan 

Kohli

 

These players are there based on their current ability and form. 

 

Can you list out the stats for the above players in lois? 

It's okay to pick Shaw ahead of Dhawan but there's no doubt that he is still good enough. 

 

As for Kohli and Sharma these two are GOAT contenders in their respective departments in ODIs, you can't drop them, it's as simple as that, a legendary player is always backed despite not doing well for few matches. 

No team has ever dropped players like them, not once, so this is happening not only in India but across the globe. 

 

Smith still plays for Aus in odis and t20s(yes freakin t20s) and he is nowhere near These two in lois. 

 

Kane Williamson strikes at 125 in t20s still plays for nz. 

 

Let's not even bring Pakistan into the discussion (Malik, Hafeez and what not) 

 

Amla was carried by South Africa for more than two years despite doing zilch. 

 

So it's not limited to India, players like Sharma (odis) and Kohli (odis and t20s) in won't be dropped if they had one quite year and that is 100% justified. 

 

Another point is that we are criticising them for the sake of it in lois, you can check out Kohli’s performance in t20is in past two years, it's excellent, both of them have been a bit lacking in odis when you judge them by the standards they set for themselves but still there stats are good enough to retain their position. 

 

Instead of blaming it all on top order (who actually won us countless games) rational arguments backed by proper stats should be made and you will realise that our middle order is definitely one of the bigger problem. 

 

[express bowling]

11 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Rohit

Dhawan 

Kohli

 

These players are there based on their current ability and form. 

 

Can you list out the stats for the above players in lois? 

It's okay to pick Shaw ahead of Dhawan but there's no doubt that he is still good enough. 

 

As for Kohli and Sharma these two are GOAT contenders in their respective departments in ODIs, you can't drop them, it's as simple as that, a legendary player is always backed despite not doing well for few matches. 

No team has ever dropped players like them, not once, so this is happening not only in India but across the globe. 

 

Smith still plays for Aus in odis and t20s(yes freakin t20s) and he is nowhere near These two in lois. 

 

Kane Williamson strikes at 125 in t20s still plays for nz. 

 

Let's not even bring Pakistan into the discussion (Malik, Hafeez and what not) 

 

Amla was carried by South Africa for more than two years despite doing zilch. 

 

So it's not limited to India, players like Sharma (odis) and Kohli (odis and t20s) in won't be dropped if they had one quite year and that is 100% justified. 

 

Another point is that we are criticising them for the sake of it in lois, you can check out Kohli’s performance in t20is in past two years, it's excellent, both of them have been a bit lacking in odis when you judge them by the standards they set for themselves but still there stats are good enough to retain their position. 

 

Instead of blaming it all on top order (who actually won us countless games) rational arguments backed by proper stats should be made and you will realise that our middle order is definitely one of the bigger problem. 

 

 

 

1 )    Our biggest issue in LOIs, in the last few years, has been that all the top 3 are slowish starters. When they play long innings, they often make up.  The problem arises when they fail after playing a few deliveries and fail collectively in big matches.

 

Team composition has to be the key and not individual names. We badly need a dashing opener ... which means one of the openers need to be dropped.

 

2 )    Which brings me to my 2nd point.  It has become a pattern that Seniors won't be dropped irrespective of whether they perform or not or whether they are ideal for the Team composition or not. And that is THE issue. 

 

If Kohli or Rohit stay good and fit the warranted Team composition ... let them play for 20 years. I have no issues.

 

But Seniors won't be dropped, just because they are seniors, is the issue. And that is surely happening.

 

3 )     The 3rd point is that, our much vaunted Top 3 have been failing collectively and regularly in important Knockout LOI games for the last 5 years. This was not the case before, when Kohli was really good in T20I knockouts and Dhawan was good in ODI knockouts till 2016.

 

Scoring in low key matches and having nice stats lose all meaning when important and big matches are lost.

 

We need big match LOI players instead of ones with sparkling stats. Which is one of the reasons why Steve Smith remains important. 

 

4 )   Middle order is an issue too, and a separate issue. And it became am issue because Dhoni, Kedar Jadhav and Rayudu played past their sell-by date because they were seniors. 

 

We need to solve this issue too by selecting deserving players.

 

5 )   Other teams doing something inefficient does not mean we have to do it too. It means that we can better them by not repeating the same mistake. It is an opportunity.

[putrevus]

Again the same nonsense, who are those batting talents which have been overlooked.

[kubrickian]

From what I've seen, especially in ODIs/T20s, good talent is not coming through. We had middle order issues for a long time. We had Hardik Pandya batting at 5 for a while, who shouldnt have batted higher than 7. He is a good slogger at best.  Rayudu and a few other options like Manish Pandey were not up to the mark.  

 

When one of the top 3 batsman dont score a hundred, we invariably fail. Kohli and Rohit have been carrying the team for a long time. From bowling perspective, other than Bumrah, I dont see any good LOI bowler. No good spinners even.

 

I dont see how this team will make any mark in the upcoming ICC tournaments unless the others step up drastically.

[express bowling]

41 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Again the same nonsense, who are those batting talents which have been overlooked.

 

Overlooked in the playing 11

 

Shaw

Gaikwad

Kishan

SKY

 

(  Not that all of them can play together ... but all are contenders )

 

And the ones chosen need to be given at least 10 games on the trot to prove their mettle.

 

Not having a dashing opener is criminal these days.

 

And everyone tried won't succeed. One may have to try a couple for 10 games each. Both Shaw and Kishan fit the bill.

 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by express bowling

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

Overlooked in the playing 11

 

Shaw

Gaikwad

Kishan

SKY

 

(  Not that all of them can play together ... but all are contenders )

 

And the ones chosen need to be given at least 10 games on the trot to prove their mettle.

 

Not having a dashing opener is criminal these days.

 

And everyone tried won't succeed. One may have to try a couple for 10 games each. Both Shaw and Kishan fit the bill.

 

 

All of them have played for India and will play again.None of them will turn into even Dhawan forget Rohit or Kohli. None of them are next batting talents who will become core batsmen in all three formats.Rohit Sharma was constaly in and out of the team till 2013 in shorter formats. Test matches only in last one year he has become core member.So this notion that these guys are having free ride is just ridiculous.Kohli was dropped from test team after poor 2011 series against WI.

 

Every young player goes thru it. You making them into Bradmans.

Edited January 21, 2022 by putrevus

[rollingstoned]

10 hours ago, putrevus said:

All of them have played for India and will play again.None of them will turn into even Dhawan forget Rohit or Kohli. None of them are next batting talents who will become core batsmen in all three formats.Rohit Sharma was constaly in and out of the team till 2013 in shorter formats. Test matches only in last one year he has become core member.So this notion that these guys are having free ride is just ridiculous.Kohli was dropped from test team after poor 2011 series against WI.

 

Every young player goes thru it. You making them into Bradmans.

You have to at least give them a chance to fail. You can't claim no talent is coming through when the usual suspects keep getting chance after chance and then when they finally get a chance and fail claim that not giving them a chance was justified, cupboard is bare. You will never develop any player or talent this way.

[prudent_kreeda]

11 hours ago, putrevus said:

All of them have played for India and will play again.None of them will turn into even Dhawan forget Rohit or Kohli. None of them are next batting talents who will become core batsmen in all three formats.Rohit Sharma was constaly in and out of the team till 2013 in shorter formats. Test matches only in last one year he has become core member.So this notion that these guys are having free ride is just ridiculous.Kohli was dropped from test team after poor 2011 series against WI.

 

Every young player goes thru it. You making them into Bradmans.

 

  The above itself tells us what needs to be done - Young Kohli , Rohit were given chances when young and were backed even when they failed . So the same should happen with current newer players too  ? We are not going to go on with the older payers for another 4-5 years and not play any youngsters .

The whole gist of expressji & ours comments are about this.

You need to find replacements for Shikhar (36+) , Rohit & VK - nearing 35 , Rahane , Pujara  -out of form and needs phasing out  . Are we going to play  with these  forever without playing any other youngsters? 

All one is asking is to find those younger ones who should takeover  from the older ones and give them chance in  playing X1 to see who can come up trumps .

Asking for spot in  playing  X1 is not same as equating them to the level of Bradman. 

[tweaker]

Most probably Dravid will not make any changes but would like to have this team for the last odi

 

Ruturaj

Rahul

Kishan

Shreyas

Pant

Surya 

Shardul

Chahal

Prasidh

Siraj

Saini

 

[Suhaan]

15 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

 

Two questions.

 

1. Why would you want them to be the next Kohli who's wets himself at the slightest of pressure. Check his knockout averages in tournaments.

 

2. Did you check Rohit's average after he had played 7 years of international cricket? Why shouldn't, let's say Shaw for example, get an uninterrupted run of 1 year at least?

Even Yuvraj was very inconsistent in his first 3-4 and 1/2 years,but they kept on giving him long rope,finally he returned the favour with two WC trophies

Sehwag was also not very consistent unlike a Dhawan but was more clutch

Yes,alas we need consistency,they are atleast consistent shyting their pants in KOs

 

[IndianRenegade]

12 hours ago, putrevus said:

All of them have played for India and will play again.None of them will turn into even Dhawan forget Rohit or Kohli. None of them are next batting talents who will become core batsmen in all three formats.Rohit Sharma was constaly in and out of the team till 2013 in shorter formats. Test matches only in last one year he has become core member.So this notion that these guys are having free ride is just ridiculous.Kohli was dropped from test team after poor 2011 series against WI.

 

Every young player goes thru it. You making them into Bradmans.

Lol you claim there are no talents coming through & then when pointed out your argument is they are not yet Kohli or Rohit.

 

Rohit himself couldn’t make it as Rohit until after so many stints according to you, but you want their replacements to be already a bradman or Rohit when they come in & claim they can’t even become a dhawan. How does that work? Astrology?
 

The fact is our style of accumulation cricket hasn’t been working for sometime, either you can keep doing the same thing or try to change it.

 

But to expect a favorable result in the very first attempt or even a couple of attempts isn’t realistic. We are fine to keep failing trying the old, but not willing to fail trying out new approaches will not help the team win anything important.
 

 

 

 
 

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by IndianRenegade

[express bowling]

13 hours ago, putrevus said:

All of them have played for India and will play again.None of them will turn into even Dhawan forget Rohit or Kohli. None of them are next batting talents who will become core batsmen in all three formats.

 

 

 

Thanks for this post  !

 

This post actually mimics the thinking of the Indian cricket fraternity and beautifully brings out all that is wrong with Indian cricket these days.

 

1 )  Your entire thinking seems to be from the point of view of individual players and NOT from the point of view of the requirements of the team or the necessary team composition.

 

2 )  The objective is NOT to get atleast the next Dhawan level talent. The objective is to get some really high SR batsmen, including some of them who can start fast in the top order too and who will do justice to modern day LOIs.

 

3 )  One does not need to consider the entire careers of Kohli, Rohit and Dhawan ... but how they have done in the last few years in big matches. Considering current form and ability is the exact point of this thread.

 

4 )   Having ONE batsman in the top 3, who can anchor the innings, is good enough in LOIs these days. Teams don't need 3 of them.

 

5 )  How do you know that none of them will be top players without giving them 15 to 20 international games without too much gap ?

 

Shaw, Kishan and Ruturaj are actually thought to be absolutely top class talents and Shaw can have a very very high ceiling.

 

 

Quote

Rohit Sharma was constaly in and out of the team till 2013 in shorter formats. Test matches only in last one year he has become core member.So this notion that these guys are having free ride is just ridiculous.Kohli was dropped from test team after poor 2011 series against WI.

 

Every young player goes thru it. You making them into Bradmans.

 

 

 

This " Ragging Syndrome " or " Saas-Bahu Syndrome " needs to go. Just because the current seniors suffered at a young age does not mean the same thing has to be repeated now. So Rohit did not get opportunities at the correct time as a youngster means we have to carry on doing the same now !!

 

SOME of these guys ( not all )  are having free rides as seniors ... and not when they were relative new. Which is the point of this thread. Why are such simple things so difficult to understand ??

 

And it is absolutely immaterial whether these batsmen are the next Bradmans or not. Are they better fits in the team than some of the existing players, based on current form and abity, is the only relevant issue.

Edited January 22, 2022 by express bowling

[Vijy]

the issue is not even whether Kohli, Dhawan, Rohit are good players, it's about two other matters: (1) are they good enough to be selected currently? and (2) much more importantly, do the demands of the game require that type of players? It is not an exaggeration to say that Eng have set the bar for ODIs in past few years. One can certainly try to find other templates, but with current pitches, fielding restrictions, decline in ODI bowling, etc. there is no doubt that one needs 2 power players even in top 4, and from 5 onward most people need to be high SR. Thus, there simply isn't enough place for mid-SR players. SR of 80s and low 90s will not be enough.

 

1. Shaw [can score at 120 SR], 2. Dhawan/Rohit - ideally I'd want Kishan/Jaiswal, but one of seniors can play for "experience", 3. Gaekwad/Kohli [if Kohli plays, it should only be as a stop-gap solution], 4. Gill/KLR, 5. Pant

[Jay]

12 hours ago, Vijy said:

the issue is not even whether Kohli, Dhawan, Rohit are good players, it's about two other matters: (1) are they good enough to be selected currently? and (2) much more importantly, do the demands of the game require that type of players? It is not an exaggeration to say that Eng have set the bar for ODIs in past few years. One can certainly try to find other templates, but with current pitches, fielding restrictions, decline in ODI bowling, etc. there is no doubt that one needs 2 power players even in top 4, and from 5 onward most people need to be high SR. Thus, there simply isn't enough place for mid-SR players. SR of 80s and low 90s will not be enough.

 

1. Shaw [can score at 120 SR], 2. Dhawan/Rohit - ideally I'd want Kishan/Jaiswal, but one of seniors can play for "experience", 3. Gaekwad/Kohli [if Kohli plays, it should only be as a stop-gap solution], 4. Gill/KLR, 5. Pant

gaekwad

ishan 

shaw

pant

gill

pandu

samadh

thakur

umran/chahar

siraj

bumrah

 

will never happen but this team would dominate teams. 

6 bowling options. explosive players. anyone can go on to get a big one. 

 

 

[Adamant]

37 minutes ago, Jay said:

gaekwad

ishan 

shaw

pant

gill

pandu

samadh

thakur

umran/chahar

siraj

bumrah

 

will never happen but this team would dominate teams. 

6 bowling options. explosive players. anyone can go on to get a big one. 

 

 

Its just speculation, the same batting lineup played against SriLanka D and won the odi series 2-1 marginally with help from Deepak Chahar, Big teams like England and Australia will beat and abuse this team while our senior team beat England the last time we played against them in a series. 

 

We need a mix of experience and youngsters and not just get overwhelmed by one IPL knock. 

 

That is how teams win tournaments. 

 

Shaw/Ruturaj (explosiveness) 

Sharma (consistency + big knocks) 

Kohli ( accumulator + finisher) 

Pant (X factor) 

Surya /Kl (dynamic batters) 

Pandya ( finisher) 

Jadeja (spin allrounder) 

Shardul ( lower order striker) 

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Adamant