" Seniority " over " Current Ability ", as the main selection criterion, is preventing Team India from realizing its true potential

[Jay]

13 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Its just speculation, the same batting lineup played against SriLanka D and won the odi series 2-1 marginally with help from Deepak Chahar, Big teams like England and Australia will beat and abuse this team while our senior team beat England the last time we played against them in a series. 

 

We need a mix of experience and youngsters and not just get overwhelmed by one IPL knock. 

 

That is how teams win tournaments. 

 

Shaw/Ruturaj (explosiveness) 

Sharma (consistency + big knocks) 

Kohli ( accumulator + finisher) 

Pant (X factor) 

Surya /Kl (dynamic batters) 

Pandya ( finisher) 

Jadeja (spin allrounder) 

Shardul ( lower order striker) 

 

 

 

No place for fodders like kohli. Sorry. Agree with the rest. This thakur will be a good investment in the long run. He is clutch. I don't care how he performs in these rubbish bilaterals. But if we have to choose between a choker and a decrepit pot bellied old man like rohit, I would still go for rohit I guess. Atleast he can go big. I fact * both in loi. Go with dhawan in odi. 

 

 

[kubrickian]

Some people are giving too much importance to IPL heroes and think they will replicate the same in international cricket. There is a huge gap between IPL and international cricket. Let them do well in IPL, List A, First class, A tours - then he should be considered the real deal. Have seen too many of these IPL heroes look like zeroes in international stage.

[Vijy]

19 hours ago, kubrickian said:

Some people are giving too much importance to IPL heroes and think they will replicate the same in international cricket. There is a huge gap between IPL and international cricket. Let them do well in IPL, List A, First class, A tours - then he should be considered the real deal. Have seen too many of these IPL heroes look like zeroes in international stage.

problem is that both domestic cricket and A team cricket has been severely curtailed since early 2020 thanks to some questionable decisions made by BCCI during the admittedly difficult times of covid

[anish2tweet]

On 1/23/2022 at 12:35 AM, Vijy said:

the issue is not even whether Kohli, Dhawan, Rohit are good players, it's about two other matters: (1) are they good enough to be selected currently? and (2) much more importantly, do the demands of the game require that type of players? It is not an exaggeration to say that Eng have set the bar for ODIs in past few years. One can certainly try to find other templates, but with current pitches, fielding restrictions, decline in ODI bowling, etc. there is no doubt that one needs 2 power players even in top 4, and from 5 onward most people need to be high SR. Thus, there simply isn't enough place for mid-SR players. SR of 80s and low 90s will not be enough.

 

1. Shaw [can score at 120 SR], 2. Dhawan/Rohit - ideally I'd want Kishan/Jaiswal, but one of seniors can play for "experience", 3. Gaekwad/Kohli [if Kohli plays, it should only be as a stop-gap solution], 4. Gill/KLR, 5. Pant

Dont even think of dropping Rohit. He can hit 200s for fun

[Suhaan]

On 1/22/2022 at 2:18 PM, express bowling said:

 

 

Thanks for this post  !

 

This post actually mimics the thinking of the Indian cricket fraternity and beautifully brings out all that is wrong with Indian cricket these days.

 

1 )  Your entire thinking seems to be from the point of view of individual players and NOT from the point of view of the requirements of the team or the necessary team composition.

 

2 )  The objective is NOT to get atleast the next Dhawan level talent. The objective is to get some really high SR batsmen, including some of them who can start fast in the top order too and who will do justice to modern day LOIs.

 

3 )  One does not need to consider the entire careers of Kohli, Rohit and Dhawan ... but how they have done in the last few years in big matches. Considering current form and ability is the exact point of this thread.

 

4 )   Having ONE batsman in the top 3, who can anchor the innings, is good enough in LOIs these days. Teams don't need 3 of them.

 

5 )  How do you know that none of them will be top players without giving them 15 to 20 international games without too much gap ?

 

Shaw, Kishan and Ruturaj are actually thought to be absolutely top class talents and Shaw can have a very very high ceiling.

 

 

 

 

 

This " Ragging Syndrome " or " Saas-Bahu Syndrome " needs to go. Just because the current seniors suffered at a young age does not mean the same thing has to be repeated now. So Rohit did not get opportunities at the correct time as a youngster means we have to carry on doing the same now !!

 

SOME of these guys ( not all )  are having free rides as seniors ... and not when they were relative new. Which is the point of this thread. Why are such simple things so difficult to understand ??

 

And it is absolutely immaterial whether these batsmen are the next Bradmans or not. Are they better fits in the team than some of the existing players, based on current form and abity, is the only relevant issue.

His posts are usually meant for amusement

Very much like Vengserkar back in 2007 WC exit said,India doesn't have any new talent coming,so cope with it

Few months later,"mediocre youngsters" lifted the T20WC trophy in SA

Situation has changed now,we have no one now who thinks/knows about modern day cricket

Earlier bilaterals and easy opposition was used to send young batters up the order

Even in 90s we used to see more innovation than today

Hope we rise again,lets have someone like Irfan Pathan or even Agarkar in the support staff

[express bowling]

I am no fan of Deepak Chahar. Would not select him if I were the captain, especially for Australia.

 

BUT 

 

What I find objectionable is the statement that " Chahar is a backup for Bhuvi "

 

WHY ?

 

If  Chahar is bowling better than Bhuvi and batting better than Bhuvi and the team is looking for a swing bowler, then why can't Bhuvi be Chahar's backup ???

 

Similarly, why can't Chahal be Bishnoi's backup based on current form ????

 

Why this obsession with seniority over current ability and form ???.

Edited October 5, 2022 by express bowling

[putrevus]

5 minutes ago, express bowling said:

I am no fan of Deepak Chahar. Would not select him if I were the captain, especially for Australia.

 

BUT 

 

What I find objectionable is the statement that " Chahar is a backup for Bhuvi "

 

WHY ?

 

If  Chahar is bowling better than Bhuvi and batting better than Bhuvi and the team is looking for a swing bowler, then why can't Bhuvi be Chahar's backup ???

 

Similarly, why can't Chahal be Bishnoi's backup based on current form ????

 

Why this obsession with seniority over current ability and form ???.

I wanted to reply to your earlier post but  I never got to it.

 

IMO your thinking is off in this regard.

 

Bhuvi cannot be back up to Chahar. If Chahar overtakes Bhuvi in the pecking order it would be end of Bhuvi in Indian cap. Same thing applies to all seniors. For eg if Gill is better option than Kohli then it should be end of the road for Kohli. Kohli like any other senior will not get better at his age.

 

So question needs to be asked are Chahar or Gill better options. If answer is yes then they should play it is  that simple. 

 

 

[express bowling]

11 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I wanted to reply to your earlier post but  I never got to it.

 

IMO your thinking is off in this regard.

 

Bhuvi cannot be back up to Chahar. If Chahar overtakes Bhuvi in the pecking order it would be end of Bhuvi in Indian cap. Same thing applies to all seniors. For eg if Gill is better option than Kohli then it should be end of the road for Kohli. Kohli like any other senior will not get better at his age.

 

So question needs to be asked are Chahar or Gill better options. If answer is yes then they should play it is  that simple. 

 

 

 

Your post is very confusing.

 

1)    I stated clearly that D.Chahar of late 2022 is better than Bhuvi of late 2022 in my opinion.

 

2)  Gill is being used as an opener and Kohli at 4 or 3 ... so, they are not competing for the same spot. Not relevant to this discussion. 

 

3)  Why should it be end of the road for playier X if he is s backup to Junior player Y for the time being  ?   People go through bad forms snd good forms.

 

4)  How does it matter if it is the end of the road for player X, if he is not performing as per the team's needs  ?

Edited October 5, 2022 by express bowling

[putrevus]

18 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Your post is very confusing.

 

1)    I stated clearly that D.Chahar of late 2022 is better than Bhuvi of late 2022 in my opinion.

 

2)  Gill is being used as an opener and Kohli at 4 or 3 ... so, they are not competing for the same spot. Not relevant to this discussion. 

 

3)  Why should it be end of the road for playier X if he is s backup to Junior player Y for the time being  ?   People go through bad forms snd good forms.

 

4)  How does it matter if it is the end of the road for player X, if he is not performing as per the team's needs  ?

I just used Gill as an example  of junior vs senior debate  it is not about opener or number 3.

 

In your opinion Chahar is better but I  also understand why selectors and TM are persisting with Bhuvi as he fills role of bowling in  death overs. Chahar does not fill that role according to them and I don't think it has got anything to do with seniority of Bhuvi.

 

It will be always end of road for Player X if player Y  takes over the spot. You cannot revert back to play X as you need to give player Y all the chances to prove himself and if he still does not work out then you need find player Z. That's how any system works.

 

There is no way Rahane is ever playing for India again.Samething will happen to all seniors. Seniors don't become backup for juniors.

 

 

 

 

[express bowling]

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

 

 

In your opinion Chahar is better but I  also understand why selectors and TM are persisting with Bhuvi as he fills role of bowling in  death overs. Chahar does not fill that role according to them and I don't think it has got anything to do with seniority of Bhuvi.

 

 

We are seeing how poor Bhuvi has become.in the death overs. So, this argument does not hold anymore. 

 

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

 

It will be always end of road for Player X if player Y  takes over the spot. You cannot revert back to play X as you need to give player Y all the chances to prove himself and if he still does not work out then you need find player Z. That's how any system works.

 

There is no way Rahane is ever playing for India again.Samething will happen to all seniors. Seniors don't become backup for juniors.

 

 

 

This thinking needs to change. Pick the player who looks best based on current form and ability. A dropped senior should be able to come back and a senior should be dropped too, if there is a better option available. 

 

Infact, it happened very recently. Pujara was dropped for the SL series and came back for the England series. 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

27 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I just used Gill as an example  of junior vs senior debate  it is not about opener or number 3.

 

In your opinion Chahar is better but I  also understand why selectors and TM are persisting with Bhuvi as he fills role of bowling in  death overs. Chahar does not fill that role according to them and I don't think it has got anything to do with seniority of Bhuvi.

 

It will be always end of road for Player X if player Y  takes over the spot. You cannot revert back to play X as you need to give player Y all the chances to prove himself and if he still does not work out then you need find player Z. That's how any system works.

 

There is no way Rahane is ever playing for India again.Samething will happen to all seniors. Seniors don't become backup for juniors.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think they have to look at them as a total package.  Both can travel. No question about that. Bhuvi is a bit more accurate and consistent. Chahar is bit more skillful with new ball.  He can be unplayable at times. But in death overs difference between them is marginal. My biggest issue with Bhuvi in recent times in death overs is he is literally terrified of bowling the end overs even to hacks like Asif Ali. He kept targeting the wide line even when the batsman is standing closer to wide line. He ends up bowling wides.  He is afraid of bowling yorkers. Instead he resorts to his ill directed knuckle balls. From a confidence perspective Bhuvi is just not there. He doesn't appear to be a seasoned bowler. He looks like a noob when the batsman comes after him. Not like Chahar will be any good. Both are same. This is where DC's batting prowess tips the scale.  

 

We can talk all we want. It is 100% guranteed Bhuvi will play all the matches assuming he picks up no injury.

[putrevus]

Just now, express bowling said:

 

 

We are seeing how poor Bhuvi has become.in the death overs. So, this argument does not hold anymore. 

 

 

 

This thinking needs to change. Pick the player who looks best based on current form and ability. A dropped senior should be able to come back and a senior should be dropped too, if there is a better option available. 

 

Infact, it happened very recently. Pujara was dropped for the SL series and came back for the England series. 

 

 

Bhuvi has looked very bad in last few matches , is Chahar that replacement of Bhuvi even at death is question., if TM thinks no then that should be end of the discussion as you have trust TM or you change TM.

 

How is current form of junior  in some  domestic cricket equal to bad form of senior in international cricket.

 

Seniors once overtaken by juniors should not be coming back .  There will be always an exception.

 

Pujara was brought back as opener as he was in England and due to injuries to openers .he did not play at his number 3 spot .  I don't think he should be playing for India anymore either.He had all his chances and now it is upto others.

 

Bobby Simpson was an exception  but he came back as a captain.

[putrevus]

10 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

 

I think they have to look at them as a total package.  Both can travel. No question about that. Bhuvi is a bit more accurate and consistent. Chahar is bit more skillful with new ball.  He can be unplayable at times. But in death overs difference between them is marginal. My biggest issue with Bhuvi in recent times in death overs is he is literally terrified of bowling the end overs even to hacks like Asif Ali. He kept targeting the wide line even when the batsman is standing closer to wide line. He ends up bowling wides.  He is afraid of bowling yorkers. Instead he resorts to his ill directed knuckle balls. From a confidence perspective Bhuvi is just not there. He doesn't appear to be a seasoned bowler. He looks like a noob when the batsman comes after him. Not like Chahar will be any good. Both are same. This is where DC's batting prowess tips the scale.  

 

We can talk all we want. It is 100% guranteed Bhuvi will play all the matches assuming he picks up no injury.

Personally IMO Bhuvi should have been kicked out from the team after 2019 world cup. TM  thought process especially after Bumrah's injury  he is needed as he is the only guy who has experience bowling death overs and last few matches are an abberation.

 

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Personally IMO Bhuvi should have been kicked out from the team after 2019 world cup. TM  thought process especially after Bumrah's injury  he is needed as he is the only guy who has experience bowling death overs and last few matches are an abberation.

 

 

He has to grow a pair and back his skills. Not bowl crappy wide balls every time he bowls 19th over. He should not bowl more than 6 balls for a start.  

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Bhuvi has looked very bad in last few matches , is Chahar that replacement of Bhuvi even at death is question.,

 

 

I am not the one who has chosen Chahar as a backup or Bhuvi as the first choice. But they are chosen anyway. I don't like either of them. 

 

But our hands are tied as far as the squad is concerned, as it is already chosen. 

 

The 2 backups are Chahar and Shami and neither are good death bowlers. Nor is first choice Bhuvi.

 

So, choose based on opening spell ability.and fitness. Shami is unfit. So we are left with these 2 and I stated my choice. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

if TM thinks no then that should be end of the discussion as you have trust TM or you change TM.

 

 

If TM knows best is the attitude then we might as well close this forum.

 

 

4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 

How is current form of junior  in some  domestic cricket equal to bad form of senior in international cricket.

 

What domestic cricket ?

 

Bishnoi and Chahar ard playing for Team India.

 

Bishnoi wss dropped after a fantastic match vs Pakistsn. Why ?

 

 

4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 

Seniors once overtaken by juniors should not be coming back .  There will be always an exception.

 

Pujara was brought back as opener as he was in England and due to injuries to openers .he did not play at his number 3 spot .  I don't think he should be playing for India anymore either.He had all his chances and now it is upto others.

 

Bobby Simpson was an exception  but he came back as a captain.

 

 

I don't agree.

[putrevus]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

He has to grow a pair and back his skills. Not bowl crappy wide balls every time he bowls 19th over. He should not bowl more than 6 balls for a start.  

Maybe he will, let us hope he does grow  a pair.

[putrevus]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

I am not the one who has chosen Chahar as a backup or Bhuvi as the first choice. But they are chosen anyway. I don't like either of them. 

 

But our hands are tied as far as the squad is concerned, as it is already chosen. 

 

The 2 backups are Chahar and Shami and neither are good death bowlers. Nor is first choice Bhuvi.

 

So, choose based on opening spell ability.and fitness. Shami is unfit. So we are left with these 2 and I stated my choice. 

 

 

 

 

If TM knows best is the attitude then we might as well close this forum.

 

 

 

What domestic cricket ?

 

Bishnoi and Chahar ard playing for Team India.

 

Bishnoi wss dropped after a fantastic match vs Pakistsn. Why ?

 

 

 

 

I don't agree.

You can state your choices and that is why forums exist,

 

My point of view is about TM's view point in regards to Chahar and  I can understand their thinking also. it has got nothing to do with seniority culture  which was your main point from the begining. 

 

Your other point of senior backing up a junior is flawed IMO.

 

 

[express bowling]

16 minutes ago, putrevus said:

You can state your choices and that is why forums exist,

 

My point of view is about TM's view point in regards to Chahar and  I can understand their thinking also. it has got nothing to do with seniority culture  which was your main point from the begining. 

 

Indian teams have been following this Seniors first methodology for long. I have given a link of such a statement in my OP.

 

It's something they officially say. 

 

 

16 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 

Your other point of senior backing up a junior is flawed IMO.

 

 

 

I think the same about yours.

[coffee_rules]

Couple of questions to @express bowling

 

1. When does the senior sidelined by injury or whatever reason, return?

 

2. if seniority was not used who are the current available in-form players that the seniors are denying a place in the 11?

 

3. Should BUmrah be selected back in Test cricket or even ODIWC23 when he returns, say Umran or some other like-for-like fast bowler gets success in the meantime?

[express bowling]

34 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Couple of questions to @express bowling

 

1. When does the senior sidelined by injury or whatever reason, return?

 

 

If a senior is sidelined by injury but was doing his job before that, then he returns on getting fit.

 

 

34 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

 

2. if seniority was not used who are the current available in-form players that the seniors are denying a place in the 11?

 

 

It varies from time to time.

 

As you asked currently ....

 

Bishnoi

Gill in ODIs 

D.Chahar in T20Is 

 

Dravid stated 6 months back that Rohit, Rahul, Kohli will be the top 3 in the T20 WC, no matter what. Clearly shows that an inform junior won't be considered irrespective of form of the 3 seniors.

 

Some time back we saw an inform Siraj dropped for out of form Senior Ishant in the home series against England. 

 

Washington Sundar was dropped after a string of fighting batting performances in tests a short time back 

 

Rahane had been out of firm for 50 tests before he was dropped 

 

There ard many more examples.

 

 

34 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

 

3. Should BUmrah be selected back in Test cricket or even ODIWC23 when he returns, say Umran or some other like-for-like fast bowler gets success in the meantime?

 

 

Bumrah is the best pacer we have got. So, he would be my first choice if fit. Not based on seniority but based on ability. If Umran performs in the meantime then he will be the 2nd or 3rd pacer.

Edited October 5, 2022 by express bowling