Coaching Watch: Rahul Dravid.

[sandeep]

11 hours ago, Adamant said:

I don't remember an ODI match where the low strike rates of Dhawan, Rohit and Kohli lost us the match, especially if we talk about big matches. 

2017 CT league stage game - Dhawan scored a century at less than run a ball.  India scored 337 or so.  Sri Lanka chased it down with couple of overs to spare.  Many other chases where India "fell short" at the end, and the blame goes to the middle order, while nobody ever blames the top order who fail, or bat too slow up front, instead of setting up the chase.  Its basic cricket that when you are in a high scoring chase, the team has to use the powerplay well, and get ahead of the asking rate because inevitably at some point wickets will fall, and its the damn job of the top order to set the innings up so that when those wickets fall, the middle order isn't left with the dual pressure of wickets as well as climbing run-rate.  One of India's most famous chases - the Natwest one by Kaif and Yuvraj - only came about because Veeru and Ganguly took the attack to England up front.  They didn't "finish" the game, or "set the platform" by putting up 50s and 100s.  But they made a critical contribution to the team effort to chase down what was then a monster target.  

 

Everybody points to that 2019 WC and Dhoni-Jadhav 'failure' at the end.  But why not compare India's run production in the 1st 15 to what England did? And do regularly.  At the 10 over mark, at the 15 over mark in ODI Cricket - England as a team, are consistently out-producing India.  In spite of India having supposed ODI "ATG" level batsmen in their top 3.  I care less about Virat Rohit and Dhawan's individual ODI statistics, and more about what they cumulatively produce as a team.  Its not bleedingly obvious - but to those who pay attention - India's white ball batting has been extremely conservative and - no other word for it - selfish, by the top order.  

[sandeep]

8 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

I think that should be the expectation from the captain more the coach as he'll have more power in selection matters.

 

Dravid's main job is bring out the best in the players given to him.Ofcourse he can make suggestions and report if someone is not improving etc. but he won't have the final call.

Its an undefined gray area where the lines are drawn in terms of ownership and responsibility of setting strategy and tactical approaches for the team.  I know folks like to think that the captain calls all these shots, all the time.  But in today's game that is simply not true.  The coach has to shoulder that workload, and provide 2nd pair of eyes validation to the decision making process.  

 

Not only that, sometimes the coach has to embrace and play the 'bad cop' so that the on-field captain can preserve the team camaradarie.  Dravid will have to be able to turn on "Indiranagar ka goonda" mode at times - and that's not something that comes naturally to him.  We all know that.  Not saying that he can't, but just something that is a possible issue.

[Adamant]

6 minutes ago, sandeep said:

2017 CT league stage game - Dhawan scored a century at less than run a ball.  India scored 337 or so.  Sri Lanka chased it down with couple of overs to spare.  Many other chases where India "fell short" at the end, and the blame goes to the middle order, while nobody ever blames the top order who fail, or bat too slow up front, instead of setting up the chase.  Its basic cricket that when you are in a high scoring chase, the team has to use the powerplay well, and get ahead of the asking rate because inevitably at some point wickets will fall, and its the damn job of the top order to set the innings up so that when those wickets fall, the middle order isn't left with the dual pressure of wickets as well as climbing run-rate.  One of India's most famous chases - the Natwest one by Kaif and Yuvraj - only came about because Veeru and Ganguly took the attack to England up front.  They didn't "finish" the game, or "set the platform" by putting up 50s and 100s.  But they made a critical contribution to the team effort to chase down what was then a monster target.  

So you pointed out the match vs  SriLanka, why don't you see how they chased it even though their top order too scored at less than run a ball. 

322 was a good enough score against a team like SriLanka, it was a failure of bowling lineup, you can't always blame the batsman. 

Also our middle order till 19 WC was weak and there is no doubt about that, can't compare the likes of Stokes, Buttler and Moeen with those weakling and yes that was the prime reason why our top order played in the way they did and yet only they won us matches even in world cup. 

6 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Everybody points to that 2019 WC and Dhoni-Jadhav 'failure' at the end.  But why not compare India's run production in the 1st 15 to what England did? And do regularly.

 

What are you on about? 

Why only analysing one match? 

You really think we lost the Wc 19 due to lack of attacking intent? If that's the case you need to rewatch it. 

 

England won the finals chasing a similar score to what we did but they succeeded bcoz they had a strong middle order who batted sensibly, intent and big hitting has got nothing to do with that. 

6 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

  At the 10 over mark, at the 15 over mark in ODI Cricket - England as a team, are consistently out-producing India.  In spite of India having supposed ODI "ATG" level batsmen in their top 3.  I care less about Virat Rohit and Dhawan's individual ODI statistics, and more about what they cumulatively produce as a team.  Its not bleedingly obvious - but to those who pay attention - India's white ball batting has been extremely conservative and - no other word for it - selfish, by the top order.  

Let our middle order improve and you will see the same team win world cup with similar approach, there's nothing wrong with our approach in ODIs. 

[Lord]

14 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Its an undefined gray area where the lines are drawn in terms of ownership and responsibility of setting strategy and tactical approaches for the team.  I know folks like to think that the captain calls all these shots, all the time.  But in today's game that is simply not true.  The coach has to shoulder that workload, and provide 2nd pair of eyes validation to the decision making process.  

 

Not only that, sometimes the coach has to embrace and play the 'bad cop' so that the on-field captain can preserve the team camaradarie.  Dravid will have to be able to turn on "Indiranagar ka goonda" mode at times - and that's not something that comes naturally to him.  We all know that.  Not saying that he can't, but just something that is a possible issue.

 

Yes,Rahul will have a huge role in strategy,tactics etc.But it's his job to be on same page as the captain than the other way round.

 

If the captain likes/dislikes a certain player but he doesn't,the coach can't do much.

 

 

 

 

[sandeep]

23 minutes ago, Adamant said:

You really think we lost the Wc 19 due to lack of attacking intent? If that's the case you need to rewatch it. 

We lost the WC inspite of having the best ever bowling attack India has ever taken to the WC, because we went into it with a batting unit that was not ready for battle. And the unreadiness was self-inflicted by a flawed captain with priorities other than putting up the best possible team.  

 

And yes, India needs to update its ODI batting template - and has needed to do so, since earlier than 2017.  The ODI rules that changed powerplay came into effect almost a decade ago.  And here we are, still playing as if the rules never changed.  And yes, the captain was comfortable with the status quo because it gave him maximum opportunities to rack up meaningless century after century in bilateral JAMODIs, enabling him to hide his rank selfishness behind overall "win percentage" and such nonsense.  

 

 

[rangeelaraja]

12 minutes ago, sandeep said:

We lost the WC inspite of having the best ever bowling attack India has ever taken to the WC, because we went into it with a batting unit that was not ready for battle. And the unreadiness was self-inflicted by a flawed captain with priorities other than putting up the best possible team.  

 

And yes, India needs to update its ODI batting template - and has needed to do so, since earlier than 2017.  The ODI rules that changed powerplay came into effect almost a decade ago.  And here we are, still playing as if the rules never changed.  And yes, the captain was comfortable with the status quo because it gave him maximum opportunities to rack up meaningless century after century in bilateral JAMODIs, enabling him to hide his rank selfishness behind overall "win percentage" and such nonsense.  

 

 

A lot of what you say is true and a lot more can be said. 
 

The reality is our team collectively lacks big game / big match temperament. On the big day it is the batting rather than bowling that comes apart. Not able to raise its game to the occasion. 
 

 

 

[sandeep]

12 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

The reality is our team collectively lacks big game / big match temperament. On the big day it is the batting rather than bowling that comes apart. Not able to raise its game to the occasion. 
 

I do not think its a temperament thing.  They did not prepare themselves to give the team the best chance to win the world cup, because that was not the primary objective. Primary objective was to maintain primacy and 'hero' status of the current top order batsmen, not allow newer younger batsmen to achieve that level of success so that their endorsement deals monopoly could last as long as possible.  In the process, hey if they win the WC, even bettrer.  If not, people will always be ready to find other scapegoats.  Some will say bowling failed.  Some will say middle order failed.  Karthik failed.  Nobody will question why in the 2 years leading up to the ODI world cup, why did the team not solidify its middle order and give available talented batsmen the chance to gain experience.  Why did the captain keep the revolving door of Rayudu, Manish Pandey, Shankar, Kedar etc.  

 

Nope, you will have plenty of sheep willing to tout the greatness of our top order, and how they are "forced" to bat conservatively because of a "weak" middle order.   7 years after India lost a WT20 semifinal thanks to a slow opener, we are still talking about why aren't India's batsmen more pro-active in t20 powerplay.   Just talking.  No accountability.  

 

Don't forget to buy MRF ZLX for sheer comfort and long life.

Edited November 18, 2021 by sandeep

[rangeelaraja]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

I do not think its a temperament thing.  They did not prepare themselves to give the team the best chance to win the world cup, because that was not the primary objective. Primary objective was to maintain primacy and 'hero' status of the current top order batsmen, not allow newer younger batsmen to achieve that level of success so that their endorsement deals monopoly could last as long as possible.  In the process, hey if they win the WC, even bettrer.  If not, people will always be ready to find other scapegoats.  Some will say bowling failed.  Some will say middle order failed.  Karthik failed.  Nobody will question why in the 2 years leading up to the ODI world cup, why did the team not solidify its middle order and give available talented batsmen the chance to gain experience.  Why did the captain keep the revolving door of Rayudu, Manish Pandey, Shankar, Kedar etc.  

 

Nope, you will have plenty of sheep willing to tout the greatness of our top order, and how they are "forced" to bat conservatively because of a "weak" middle order.   7 years after India lost a WT20 semifinal thanks to a slow opener, we are still talking about why aren't India's batsmen more pro-active in t20 powerplay.   Just talking.  No accountability.  

 

 

 @sandeep
 

And it not the captain fault, it is not the coaches fault. I will blame BCCI. 
 

It is the BCCI that has the ultimate accountability. The BCCIs success is defined based on its financial success and not based on its vision, planning and focus on excellence. 
 

It is the BCCI that determines the selection panel, has the final say in coach selection, captain selection. 
 

The BCCI also determines how much autonomy it wants to give the captain and whether it not it wants to clamp down on the “superstar” culture. 
 

Did BCCI not see the writing on the wall ? 
 

Ofcourse, they don’t give a damn, they act only when there is media scrutiny/criticism and pressure. 
 

We may win a major ICC trophy once a decade or so ( which is terrible returns considering the number of events that are happening and the resources at our disposal ) 

But - our situation will NEVER  change until BCCI is run like a sports body focused on excellence and domination and not like a profit focused business house. 
 

Ganguly has been a bloody terrible. He is no better than the  babus who ran BCCI previously. 

[sandeep]

2 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

Ganguly has been a bloody terrible. He is no better than the  babus who ran BCCI previously. 

He's a pawn.

[Dery]

Imo barely winning at home vs depleted Nz team after winning the toss is an average start to his tenure 

[sandeep]

7 hours ago, Dery said:

Imo barely winning at home vs depleted Nz team after winning the toss is an average start to his tenure 

Thats reactionary.  We have to see what kind of decisions he makes over 10-15 games...

[diga]

10 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Thats reactionary.  We have to see what kind of decisions he makes over 10-15 games...

Lets wait till the SA series is over

[vvvslaxman]

8 hours ago, Dery said:

Imo barely winning at home vs depleted Nz team after winning the toss is an average start to his tenure 

 

The close win was not due to his coaching. More to do with our perennial finishing problem. After all we play the same guys so expecting different results is unfair on Dravid. My only expectation is abolish this one-dimensional nature of our unit. And also build a ODI unit with depth.  Have a flexible unit instead of predictable unit.  Using the metrics collected from recent years and addressing the issues of individuals. Have an open conversation with players who are not good enough anymore.  He will have to make a lot of tougher calls as some guys are given too much rope. He has the opportunity to turn things around in weaker areas. Million dollar question is Does he have the power.- Despite Kumble had same stature as Dravid, Dravid has a lot more respect than others.* So i do not expect these guys to gang up against him. Atleast Rohit as a LOI captain won't indulge in such things as he is a reasonable guy.

[sandeep]

2 games in, zero games for Avesh Khan, 2 games for Deepak Chahar, even with Siraj out.  

 

Questionable? Definitely.

 

IS that a Dravid call or a Rohit Sharma call? We don't know.

[The Realist]

Picked a crap squad 

 

Played the same old

 

Learned nothing nor tried anything new

 

Depressing

[cowboysfan]

you know i agree with most of you here.what are we doing playing the same old guys in a meaningless series? try new guys and give them a whole series to figure it out.the selectors should have rested most of the WC squad and played all new guys in the team.

[sandeep]

Game 3 - series has been won already. If I do not see all of the following happening, I will be seriously disappointed with Indiranagar ka fake gunda.

 

• Rohit Sharma should rest himself this game, ideally KLPD should too, but that's a guy who's mentally fragile and needs to build as much confidence as he can. And with Rohit resting he can be 'captain' for a game, let's see how he handles it.
• Ruturaj or Venky, one of these 2 should open, maybe both, but unlikely that KL will drop to #3 if he captains.
• Cannot, and I mean cannot play both Bhuvi and Chahar again.  No matter what.  Harshal plays obviously, but Avesh gets in.  
• If they win the toss, they better bat first.  

 

If I do not see these things happen in a dead rubber, that will bode quite badly for Team India under the "new" leadership of Rahul "nice boy" Dravid.  

[Lord]

58 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Game 3 - series has been won already. If I do not see all of the following happening, I will be seriously disappointed with Indiranagar ka fake gunda.

 

• Rohit Sharma should rest himself this game, ideally KLPD should too, but that's a guy who's mentally fragile and needs to build as much confidence as he can. And with Rohit resting he can be 'captain' for a game, let's see how he handles it.
• Ruturaj or Venky, one of these 2 should open, maybe both, but unlikely that KL will drop to #3 if he captains.
• Cannot, and I mean cannot play both Bhuvi and Chahar again.  No matter what.  Harshal plays obviously, but Avesh gets in.  
• If they win the toss, they better bat first.  

 

If I do not see these things happen in a dead rubber, that will bode quite badly for Team India under the "new" leadership of Rahul "nice boy" Dravid.  

 

new leader is Rohit. If he wants to play,he will.He already said there won't be many changes.

[vvvslaxman]

Players are afraid of losing their spots to youngsters. A slight dip in form there will be pressure for replacement. Good idea is to not give them chance at all. This trend was started by Kohli. Keeping players who are worse than him around to make sure his place is not under scrutiny.

[sandeep]

23 hours ago, sandeep said:

Game 3 - series has been won already. If I do not see all of the following happening, I will be seriously disappointed with Indiranagar ka fake gunda.

 

• Rohit Sharma should rest himself this game, ideally KLPD should too, but that's a guy who's mentally fragile and needs to build as much confidence as he can. And with Rohit resting he can be 'captain' for a game, let's see how he handles it.
• Ruturaj or Venky, one of these 2 should open, maybe both, but unlikely that KL will drop to #3 if he captains.
• Cannot, and I mean cannot play both Bhuvi and Chahar again.  No matter what.  Harshal plays obviously, but Avesh gets in.  
• If they win the toss, they better bat first.  

 

If I do not see these things happen in a dead rubber, that will bode quite badly for Team India under the "new" leadership of Rahul "nice boy" Dravid.  

 

 

Rested Rahul instead of himself - that's a Rohit call most likely - and I'm not impressed.

 

Bat first after winning toss? Good.

 

Playing Bhuvi, Chahar, Harshal as the pace 'attack'?  Not acceptable. 

 

@maniac Curious to see how you justify this one now?