26/11 Attacks - Reflections

[ravishingravi]

43 minutes ago, goose said:

I haven’t blamed the indian govt here. I just asked how much weight do Indians give to pandemic response at the ballot box. you say very little. I find that odd in any country

 

Well while we are on goose chase, you could go back to all the govts who ruled India. Going back further to British rule that left us in shambles and utter poverty. Every country is not the same. When you have been on outside for too long, its possible that you lose context about the country we are discussing. Till about 3 years back, almost 10 % of population didn't have access to 24 hour electricity, many were using charcoal for cooking, did not have a bank account, did not have medical insurance. If you think these folks will be going into ballot box blaming the govt for once in lifetime pandemic with inherent constraints faced by people and govt, then I think you should stay in India for a while. For our folks, expectations from govt and accountability benchmarks are very different. These are people who have been lied and cheated to for years. Now, when they receive $5000 for building a house for themselves, they will not lose their mind over oxygen cylinder shortfall over peak surge of the virus. 

 

Not to mention, many educated would look at the situation in UK, US and other countries with much superior infrastructure and see our situation and wouldn't feel too bad. There are more 1500 people dying in US everyday. Show me who is asking anything of Biden. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by ravishingravi

[goose]

29 minutes ago, ravishingravi said:

 

Well while we are on goose chase, you could go back to all the govts who ruled India. Going back further to British rule that left us in shambles and utter poverty. Every country is not the same. When you have been on outside for too long, its possible that you lose context about the country we are discussing. Till about 3 years back, almost 10 % of population didn't have access to 24 hour electricity, many were using charcoal for cooking, did not have a bank account, did not have medical insurance. If you think these folks will be going into ballot box blaming the govt for once in lifetime pandemic with inherent constraints faced by people and govt, then I think you should stay in India for a while. For our folks, expectations from govt and accountability benchmarks are very different. These are people who have been lied and cheated to for years. Now, when they receive $5000 for building a house for themselves, they will not lose their mind over oxygen cylinder shortfall over peak surge of the virus. 

 

Not to mention, many educated would look at the situation in UK, US and other countries with much superior infrastructure and see our situation and wouldn't feel too bad. There are more 1500 people dying in US everyday. Show me who is asking anything of Biden. 

you've both misunderstood. i am not comparing countries and i certainly am not attacking India. never mind being on the outside, i have never been on the inside! my only connection with India is my parents who moved to the UK in 1970s. i come from a position of total ignorance. mine was a commentary on the human species. why do we get our knickers in a twist over 3000 falling from the twin towers, or 100 people dying on the streets of Mumbai/London and yet gloss over mismanagement that leads to much greater loss of life?

[Swag]

My dad was was in the railway office in CST that day.

Thankfully the scum did not go in the direction of his office.

Don't want to think of that incident..the sheer helplessness, tragedy of lives lost

 

 

[goose]

perhaps the mods could move the last few posts to the covid thread out of respect

[Swag]

Del

Edited November 29, 2021 by Swag

[dial_100]

On 11/28/2021 at 12:45 PM, straighttalk said:

 I was merely responding to your attempt to paint Congress as root of evil and BJP or specifically Modi as the savior of Hindu pride by pointing out that inspite of all the rhetoric BJP has a similar track record of cowardice and gross mismanagement which is hampering our armed forces.

 

 

All you are doing is fooling people with assumption that RW or BJP supporters are unpadh gawar. I told you few times that there are different discussion threads for each of these topic. You were to just stick to 26/11, no pulwama, no 1971, no Corona. Just stick 26/11. It was very hard for you right. You have deflected by saying 50 different things.

 

First of all, Hindu's dont need a political figure to save them. Hindus are wise enough to chose what is right for them. They dont need saving. No politician need to save Hindus or Hinduism. You just answer why the $uck your party blamed RSS for 26/11.

 

As for rhetoric like Indira was 20 times that of Modi, is the absurd comparison I have ever heard. But for the sake of discussion if I assume that is true here is what I have at my hand.

 

In 70s and 80s, India and China's GDP was about $10-$30B apart, round about $180 to $300 B in that decade. So from 80s and 90s, China reached to $10-12T by 2014 while India was barely touching $2T. So India's 20 times power back in 70s and 80s saw a huge fall and most of these years were ruled by your fav stupid party. In 2014 Modi got a crippled economy, crippled defense preparedness, almost negligible infrastructure and the most corrupt bureaucracy. 

 

 So your 20 times strong leader could not be compared in a situation that arrived 3 decades later. Focus on the discussion now "2611 attacks reflection".

 

Why the heck Cong not take any strong action? Why did they blame RSS? If RSS did all that where is the proof? If RSS was not responsible for 2611 then why did idiot leaders not apologize for blaming RSS. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by dial_100

[mishra]

5 hours ago, goose said:

you've both misunderstood. i am not comparing countries and i certainly am not attacking India. never mind being on the outside, i have never been on the inside! my only connection with India is my parents who moved to the UK in 1970s. i come from a position of total ignorance. mine was a commentary on the human species. why do we get our knickers in a twist over 3000 falling from the twin towers, or 100 people dying on the streets of Mumbai/London and yet gloss over mismanagement that leads to much greater loss of life?

Bhai, few basic facts, I think I can a bit analyse Indian situation and India. Indian society was and even now very effectively divided by local and national leaders of family run political parties. RSS is only group of people who have been advocating unification and equality  since independence. Earlier it was on lines of Hindus only, Now its going beyond religion. But bottom line is, they want a glorious India and think on lines “If Germans can do it why can’t we” 

 

Now I go to India every year and my state came under Yogi Modi BJP just few years back. Each time i go, i see massive difference. Massive means massive. When I visited first time under Yogis rule one year rule, I assessed that work dine was equivalent atleast 30+ years of Congress rule. Pace of growth of India can only be appreciated if you have seen India , grown up there, understood how it used to work and left it because of “ Is desh ka kuchh nahi ho sakata”.

Indian icfers can not see the difference someone like me sees as for them its continous.

People like me know, Government is doing it well, infact so well that US and West including China thinks it is threatening. Mind you, China is where it is just in 3 decades of good leadership. India is still in first decade of good governance.

[mishra]

^As a example on foreign relationship, After the way Modi dealt COP 26 climate summit, You will see BBC will start changing India reporting page which used to be filled with only negative stories. As if there was nothing positive about India. Visit bbc website today and a month later and a month later  and do the count.

[raki05]

On 11/27/2021 at 2:39 AM, straighttalk said:

 

 

Blaming Congress or BJP is myopic. We had Indira Gandhi as a Congress leader who is worth 20 Modis in terms of what she has achieved on national security front. To stand up to US and China at the same time is probably the biggest achievement. The fact is for all our bravado we are a third world country which produces service (IT, finances) with very little technology or manufacturing. Couple that with corruption, poor education, and health care, we cannot afford to spend as much as China. Our defence preparedness wrt China is not same as Pakistans defence preparedeness wrt us. We do have an economic advantage over Pakistan. What is the point of having a war when it would not achieve anything other than killing few civilians on both sides. Do we have the capability to take POK. No. Do we have it now? No. Can we take on China. No. Can we do it now? No.

 

Who won the 65 and 71 War. Congress. Who fought against China in 62 , Siachin in 84, and the Sikkim war against China. Congress led Governments.

Who turned tail at Galwan even when the Army was ready? BJP.

 

Look at Balakot. We do not know what damage we inflicted. Our military didnt say anything or provide any proof. BJP sources came up with laughable numbers in the media. No one has to show operational details but independent sources determined that although the intent was there, the attack failed. Which happens and I do not want to point fingers in the fog of war. But what happened next day paints a sorry state of our state of affairs. We knew Pak was coming and instead we lost an aircraft, had a pilot captured and paraded in front of entire world. We fought with decades old weapons and also shot down and martyred 17 of our servicemen with our own guns. This is the sorry state of our armed forces under BJP governance. We were admittedly in a poorer state under Congress policies. So for all the bravado, it was embarrassment. Only fools and blind Bhakts will consider Balakot as a fine example of Indian bravery.

 

Lest not forget intelligence failure and misgovernance during Kargil War as a parallel to what happened in 26/11. The Lahore bus diplomacy and the guts not to attach Pak caused countless soldiers to die by scaling mountain tops. And less said about our abject surrender in front of Chinese aggression, the better.

 

Point to this is to provide a counterpoint to vested interests in this thread trying to paint Congress as evil and BJP as the savior. That is not the case, we are equally worse under a government that just has better optics and marketing. If our military was poor under Congress, it certainly aint a superpower under BJP.  

 

Lets hold the corrupt leaders everywhere irrespective of party accountable. Modi hasnt really achieved anything but is getting by because of the moron Gandhi and provincial leaders who are more into populism and less in governance. Lets get leaders like Patnaik, Nitish, etc who has a vision and the history of governance to make India healthy, wealthy, and powerful. 

 

You speak like pakka kangresia. Can you tell how come suddenly all bomb blast stopped after 2014 which was kind of festive events during kangress tenure. What is your opinion on Digvijay and other kangresi leader who shamelessly accepted that 26/11 was insider job after having such a worst terrorist attack on nation by Pakistani. so you compare 26/11 attach which is financial capital of our country to an loc war where  during winter time there were consensus to not keep soldiers.  

[raki05]

All the liberals and farmers are already missing from this thread. Special mention to @New guy jo har thread me unnecessary chati pitta hai for pakistani and their racial discrimination in foreign nation and here completely MIA.

[dial_100]

1 hour ago, raki05 said:

All the liberals and farmers are already missing from this thread. Special mention to @New guy jo har thread me unnecessary chati pitta hai for pakistani and their racial discrimination in foreign nation and here completely MIA.

 

For them not just politics but rapes are secular and communal, Terrorism and murders are secular and communal, comedy is secular and communal, movies are secular and communal. Bhai inki baat hi alag hai. Nothing liberal about their behavior. We shouldnt take their approval and views on anything. Dont you know how they continue to ignore all the political killings happened in Bengal and Kerala. They are simply worth ignoring. Tactfully, right after 26/11, this thread was immersed into a dozen+ threads on liberal topics. They simply dont care that someone attacked our country, the most powerful city of India and held hostage for 3 full days, killing so many people.

 

Leave it man. Mat yaad dila. 

[someone]

Many unanswered questions and uncomfortable reality answers still there.

 

Local support for the recce, logistics and tactical? Internal sabotage in Mumbai police? What about the insider political support?  The coordination questions have been completely unanswered,  and the faultlines and traitors are still present to date.

 

Then, the reality that this was an ideology attack, about religion. Some community were freely let go from those terrorists, while the rest suffered brutal violence. There have been reports that there were torture deaths. We can talk about Pakistan every time, but the issue is even more simpler and fundamental, and has deeply affectedly all our past, present, and future. Yet, no government, public wants to talk or deal with it...

Edited December 1, 2021 by someone

[dial_100]

1 hour ago, someone said:

Many unanswered questions and uncomfortable reality answers still there.

 

Local support for the recce, logistics and tactical? Internal sabotage in Mumbai police? What about the insider political support?  The coordination questions have been completely unanswered,  and the faultlines and traitors are still present to date.

 

Then, the reality that this was an ideology attack, about religion. Some community were freely let go from those terrorists, while the rest suffered brutal violence. There have been reports that there were torture deaths. We can talk about Pakistan every time, but the issue is even more simpler and fundamental, and has deeply affectedly all our past, present, and future. Yet, no government, public wants to talk or deal with it...

 

They consider us unworthy of questioning them on anything. But according to them, these 10 animals magically knew what to do and how to do it. There wasnt any recce done, there was no logistic support either.

 

[Mariyam]

7 hours ago, dial_100 said:

 

They consider us unworthy of questioning them on anything. But according to them, these 10 animals magically knew what to do and how to do it. There wasnt any recce done, there was no logistic support either.

 

Why speculate?

This is the entire Ram Pradhan commission, tasked with finding lapses in the security set up on 26/11. Also covers intelligence inputs.

 

[Vilander]

On 11/28/2021 at 11:16 AM, goose said:

 

both lead to loss life. both effect our way of life. the goverment's primary role it to protect its citizens and their way of life.

 

 

So they manage both what's your point. 

[Vilander]

11 hours ago, someone said:

Then, the reality that this was an ideology attack, about religion. Some community were freely let go from those terrorists, while the rest suffered brutal violence. There have been reports that there were torture deaths.

+1

[dial_100]

1 hour ago, Mariyam said:

Why speculate?

This is the entire Ram Pradhan commission, tasked with finding lapses in the security set up on 26/11. Also covers intelligence inputs.

 

 

I wouldnt speculate if it was a trivial thing. But just because you recommended I went through it . All I could find is this 1 line there. You call this investigation. At least give me something credible. This one claims things based on someone's perception. 

 

did not feel that 26/11 had any local support

 

[Clarke]

3 hours ago, Vilander said:

So they manage both what's your point. 

 

Decommission a percentage of the armed forces & equipment to pay for more hospital beds and healthcare in general

 

I'm actually putting words in his mouth, but a direct comparison will automatically lead to such ideas

[Mariyam]

2 hours ago, dial_100 said:

 

I wouldnt speculate if it was a trivial thing. But just because you recommended I went through it . All I could find is this 1 line there. You call this investigation. At least give me something credible. This one claims things based on someone's perception. 

 

did not feel that 26/11 had any local support

 

My bad.

 

This PDF is the entire commission.

 

https://www.humanrightsinitiative.org/download/RDPradhan&VBala-HLEC-2611attacks-Report-2009-LowRes.pdf

Doesn't speak about local collaborators except for that one line you mentioned.

 

Here is the dossier the GoI sent to Pakistan. The understanding is Headley was the person who recce-ed the areas. 

There were two Indians who were acquitted for 'doubtful' evidence.

 

 

 

 

 

[goose]

7 hours ago, Vilander said:

So they manage both what's your point. 

it was an ill conceived post which some interpreted as an attack on India / govt. It was a comment on the human tendency (and in my opinion entirely irrational), aided and abetted by politicians, to allocate a disproportionate amount of time and resources (emotional and economic) to the response to terrorism versus the response to the pandemic. the human physiological response to both has been shown to be identical. the main difference the 'enemy' is more visible in the case of terrorism.