Its high time we distinguish between IPL and International players

[Vijy]

19 minutes ago, the don said:

As opposed to Bumrah who averages close to or over 50 in white ball vs the better teams?

Shaheen is the most lethal white ball strike force in the world atm and  there is no point denying it. No one in Asia esp comes close atm.
 

Bumrah has been poor in LOIs. some posters (including myself and @express bowling) have even suggested or speculated that he be dropped from LOIs. hence, just because shaheen is better than bumrah in LOIs means nothing - it means diddly squat. if one considers the top 6 teams in ODIs, which are arguably SENA + Ind + Pak, and consider the performances since 2019 (to include only relatively recent performances), few bowlers have done well. Heck, even Rauf is more potent when playing top ODI teams.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;orderby=wickets;spanmin1=01+jan+2019;spanval1=span;team=1;team=2;team=25;team=3;team=4;team=40;team=5;team=6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=bowling

Edited June 29, 2022 by Vijy

[the don]

6 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Bumrah has been a major disappointment in white ball cricket in the last 2 years. I am deeply dissatisfied by his lack of wicket taking tendency in white ball cricket in this period. He does even try getting LOI wickets these days.

 

But Bumrah's failure does not make Shaheen good in ODIs..

 

There is not a single pacer nowadays who really impresses me as a ODI bowler. All are either mediocre or disinterested in this format.

I think wickets upfront is the key in modern white ball formats and no one does it better than Shaheen currently.
The t20 cup in Australia and the worlcup in India specifically will give a clearer picture about some of the guys on the curcuit.

[the don]

Just now, Vijy said:

Bumrah has been poor in LOIs. some posters (including myself and @express bowling) have even suggested or speculated that he be dropped from LOIs. hence, just because shaheen is better than bumrah in LOIs means nothing - it means diddly squat. if one considers the top 6 teams in ODIs, which are arguably SENA + Ind + Pak, and consider the performances since 2019 (to include only relatively recent performances), the trundler Boobi Kumar has done much better than Shaheen. Heck, even Rauf is more potent when playing top ODI teams.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;orderby=wickets;spanmin1=01+jan+2019;spanval1=span;team=1;team=2;team=25;team=3;team=4;team=40;team=5;team=6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=bowling

Stats dont reveal everything, shaheens wicket taking ability with the new ball is golddust , statistically someone like a shinwari might be better, similarly Bumrah is indispensible for India for the control he brings.

[express bowling]

5 minutes ago, Vijy said:

I quite agree with you. Just look at this result:

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;orderby=wickets;spanmin1=01+jan+2019;spanval1=span;team=1;team=2;team=25;team=3;team=4;team=40;team=5;team=6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=bowling

Test teams against arguably top 6 ODI teams since 2019. The only good pace bowler has been woakes and even he plays only in certain conditions. if I exclude him, the next best IMO is boult, who is better than shaheen across all formats when playing tougher teams. joseph has started well, as have richardson (jhye) and rauf - small sample sizes though.

 

ironically, the much hated (for a good reason) boobie has comfortably outperformed shaheen in avg and ER (and marginally in SR too).

 

 

And it's not just poor stats.

 

It seems like pacers are not even that interested in playing ODIs any more. The intensity is missing. 

 

Some of the better stats are often a result of playing 2nd string teams of better sides with good players resting.

 

Is there any ODI pacer you would be truly afraid to face if you were an international batter ? 

 

But if I were a test match batter I would be uncomfortable to face both Cummins and Bumrah. Shami and Rabada would come close too. Anderson in swinging conditions is a horrifying prospect. 

[Vijy]

7 minutes ago, the don said:

Stats dont reveal everything, shaheens wicket taking ability with the new ball is golddust , statistically someone like a shinwari might be better, similarly Bumrah is indispensible for India for the control he brings.

then what "reveals everything"? just gut feelings?

 

shaheen is the best that Pak has at the moment and he has done very well without a doubt. with that said, the comparison with bumrah is silly for reasons I have already noted. Bumrah is not currently one of India's best LOI bowlers because he has become highly defensive. prasidh is doing very well. he has the ability to take wkts up front and in the middle order.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Vijy

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

And it's not just poor stats.

 

It seems like pacers are not even that interested in playing ODIs any more. The intensity is missing. 

 

Some of the better stats are often a result of playing 2nd string teams of better sides with good players resting.

 

Is there any ODI pacer you would be truly afraid to face if you were an international batter ? 

 

But if I were a test match batter I would be uncomfortable to face both Cummins and Bumrah. Shami and Rabada would come close too. Anderson in swinging conditions is a horrifying prospect. 

yes, only a few teams like Pak are interested in having their first choice ODI XIs play any and every opposition. I expect ODIs to vanish once the T20 leagues around the world grow richer. ODIs is a format that only a few countries, most notably Pak, take seriously.

 

poor stats are a reflection of the above fact, IMO.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Vijy

[express bowling]

12 minutes ago, the don said:

I think wickets upfront is the key in modern white ball formats and no one does it better than Shaheen currently.
The t20 cup in Australia and the worlcup in India specifically will give a clearer picture about some of the guys on the curcuit.

 

Much of that impression comes from T20 cricket.

 

In ODIs, no one has looked lethal against top teams.

Edited June 29, 2022 by express bowling

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Much of that impression comes from T20 cricket.

 

In ODIs, no one has looked lethal against top teams.

boult is arguably the closest in terms of being consistent up front and in middle overs against top ODI teams (24.7 avg at 4.7 ER vs SENA+Ind+Pak since 2019). however, it is a far cry from the days when likes of bond, early starc, etc. left devastation in their wake.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Vijy

[Ankit_sharma03]

Just now, express bowling said:

 

Much of that impression comes from T20 cricket.

 

In ODIs, no one has looked lethal.

Its one format teams are still trying to crack - their has been a lot of rule changes and t20 wc in ever 2 years makes ODI take back seat. Some teams are playing it as extension of t20 and some like 50 over game 

This has even affected bowlers who dont know either to bowl attacking or defensive. Indian bowlers have been guilty of bowling defensive in ODI but same likes of bumrah-bhuvi pitch it up in other formats n take wkts 

ODI is a confusing format now by the time it will be cracked some more new rules will come. 

[Vijy]

Just now, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Its one format teams are still trying to crack - their has been a lot of rule changes and t20 wc in ever 2 years makes ODI take back seat. Some teams are playing it as extension of t20 and some like 50 over game 

This has even affected bowlers who dont know either to bowl attacking or defensive. Indian bowlers have been guilty of bowling defensive in ODI but same likes of bumrah-bhuvi pitch it up in other formats n take wkts 

ODI is a confusing format now by the time it will be cracked some more new rules will come. 

if rules keep changing fast, no one will settle and no bowler may do well

[Ankit_sharma03]

12 minutes ago, Vijy said:

if rules keep changing fast, no one will settle and no bowler may do well

Im afraid that wont stop with the growing popularity of t20s ...............they ll keep using ODI as an experimental format 

[sandeep]

11 hours ago, Suhaan said:

Experience is not always necessary, don't overrate it

Steyn has ample experience in coaching /mentoring T20 sides,besides this we have seen him do well with Umran 

There is no reason to say he can't do better than Mhambrey

 

maybe so.  Arguably there is also no reason to say that Mhambrey can't do better than Steyn.  We are all fans with opinions here, and there is no "wrong" opinion per se.  However, if we are going to have a discussion on opposing opinions, lets keep it fact based.  Apart from the co-incidence that Steyn happened to be affiliated with the Hyderabad IPL team as Umraan has emerged, there is no evidence that Steyn has actually contributed to Umraan's development as a bowler.  Mhambrey on the other hand, has put in serious time, has trained to be a coach, and has a track record of shepherding young pace bowlers to execute effectively.  He was the coach for the u19 team that won the u19 WC while making the entire world sit up and take notice of the fast bowling cadre - Nagarkoti, Mavi, Porel.  They all executed at a high level in that tournament - relative to the competition.  He has also worked with the A team tours IIRC, where Siraj sharpened his red ball skills.  

 

Steyn is a GOAT bowler no doubt, and such guys at a minimum, would be amazing as coaching consultants - when they come and share their insights about bowling tactics, mindset, how to approach bowling from a mental perspective, setup etc. But as a day to day coach, you need someone who is happy to roll his sleeves up and do the nitty gritty work. Help the bowlers tailor their fitness regimen to their individual needs, managing niggles, body types etc, Help the bowler maintain their bowling mechanics over time, that sort of thing - you need coaching knowledge for that. As great a bowler Steyn was, it doesn't make him knowledgeable enough about the variety of bowling actions, body types, that different bowlers bring to the table. 

 

Do you get the point I'm trying to make?  

[sandeep]

4 hours ago, Vijy said:

any day, a stat padder in T20s who scores at 125-130 SR will be prioritized over a selfless (even if limited) batter like tripathi who can go at 140+ SR.

problem is that the selection panel is filled with unkils, stuck in a group think where they pat themselves on the back for selecting "proper" batsmen with so-called "hunger" for runs.  That is not a bad selection mindset -for test cricket, or even ODI cricket pre-2015.  But white ball cricket has really evolved into a different beast. I mean, I love the fact that India has a cricket culture that prizes proper technique and 'big' runs in its top batsmen.  But its long past the time where at least for T20 cricket, they realize that you cannot expect a VVS Laxman to go out and score a 20 ball 40 on a regular basis. That doesn't mean that VVS isn't an amazing batsman - its just that in the T20 format, you have to select a Prithvi Shaw type batsman ahead of him.   

 

Look what has happened to KL Rahul as a T20 batsman over time - this bloke is one of our best talents over the last 5-7 years - he has put up best in class performances across formats.  He's a truly gifted batsman.  And just because Virat was given carte blanche for such a long time and simply refused to make room for him in the top 3 white ball batting slots - this guy has tinkered with his batting and attempted to become an 'anchor' to put up the big runs.  He should have been unleashed at the top of the order around 2017 - to open with Dhawan with Rohit dropping down to #3 and Virat to #4.  But that would have meant that fewer meaningless ODI centuries for 'Virat d Great'.  

 

 

[Vickydev]

I agree with the OP, in fact I love IPL as much as the next person, but it is nowhere near the highest level of  T20 cricket. It is still a domestic tournament where there is a lot of protection of players from situations, lots of playing safe/consolidation to preserve wickets due to lack of depth, giving respect to bowlers etc due to the limitations of domestic/inexperienced players.

 

Hardly they are applicable at top level international cricket on true flat batting wickets esp ones we will see in Oz. Even the associates are capable enough to take on the big names. Yes the pressure in IPL is as high as big international games but the quality and intensity is still some way off. Likes of Harshal have done well at times but we have to look at these players with the big picture in mind. Whether they are good enough to do it relentlessly and be aggressive

[putrevus]

Again another genius blaming captain for player becoming inefficient. First it was Kohli being jealous of Rahul talent. Now it is another story on why he was not made opener. This is an unending entertainment.

 

Just because  some guy scores in IPL,He does not becomes world class player.Playing for national team should be reserved for ultra talented not  for any tom dick and harry .We all saw our world class finisher  unable to even clear ropes even one time. How many years has he played in international cricket. Opposition Bowler turned batsman looked much more adept in clearing ropes. 

 

Even Saha has scored 2 IPL 100s but it does not make him better than an utrocious T20 player like Dhoni. Tripatis of the world  are good for IPL , let them stay there.Every IPL player who has some success in IPL need not to be tried for Indian team.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by putrevus

[vvvslaxman]

We have to start realizing IPL Is not the only cricket league around the world. There are multiple leagues. Vast majority of these mercenaries take part in all these leagues. Their experience is far more than that of guys who plays exclusively on familiar Indian pitches. They play on different type of surfaces, different types of attacks. They practice over and over against all the sides and improve all the time. There was a time IPL was the only decent league available. Even then we struggled to produce good T20 side. Now the competition is higher. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by vvvslaxman

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Again another genius blaming captain for player becoming inefficient. First it was Kohli being jealous of Rahul talent. Now it is another story on why he was not made opener. This is an unending entertainment.

 

Just because  some guy scores in IPL,He does not becomes world class player.Playing for national team should be reserved for ultra talented not  for any tom dick and harry .We all saw our world class finisher  unable to even clear ropes even one time. How many years has he played in international cricket. Opposition Bowler turned batsman looked much more adept in clearing ropes. 

 

Even Saha has scored 2 IPL 100s but it does not make him better than an utrocious T20 player like Dhoni. Tripatis of the world  are good for IPL , let them stay there.Every IPL player who has some success in IPL need not to be tried for Indian team.

 

 

 

 

I understand that some folks can't stand any criticism of their favorites - even if accurate.  

 

The problem being discussed here isn't specific to one player - whether its KL Rahul, or Rahul Tripathi, or Ruturaj.  Its about the selection philosophy when it comes to building the Indian batting unit for white ball cricket, specifically T20.  

[Suhaan]

6 hours ago, the don said:

As opposed to Bumrah who averages close to or over 50 in white ball vs the better teams?

Shaheen is the most lethal white ball strike force in the world atm and  there is no point denying it. No one in Asia esp comes close atm.
 

Mazak ka ek waqt hota hai

[Suhaan]

2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

We have to start realizing IPL Is not the only cricket league around the world. There are multiple leagues. Vast majority of these mercenaries take part in all these leagues. Their experience is far more than that of guys who plays exclusively on familiar Indian pitches. They play on different type of surfaces, different types of attacks. They practice over and over against all the sides and improve all the time. There was a time IPL was the only decent league available. Even then we struggled to produce good T20 side. Now the competition is higher. 

In order to have better/beasts in this format,BCCI seriously needs to think again about restricting Indian players only to IPL

Let these guys explore more in this format,where sky is the limit in terms of hitting big

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Suhaan said:

In order to have better/beasts in this format,BCCI seriously needs to think again about restricting Indian players only to IPL

Let these guys explore more in this format,where sky is the limit in terms of hitting big

 

Women's cricket players don't have that restriction. Harmanpreet Kaur, Mandana,  Jemima all did well in other leagues. They can very well do the same with men's cricket atleast for fringe players.