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Can Jasprit Bumrah become an ATG with only 60 tests?


Majestic

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It doesn't seem likely that he will play anything more than that in his test career. With that awkward action, his fitness is always a concern. As he moves into his 30s, pace will go down and he may not be as effective.

 

What are the chances of Jasprit Bumrah becoming an ATG now if he sustains a 5-6 months?

 

Discuss!

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Yeah, if his performances dictate that. 

 

PS In fact, 60 tests is more than enough if there is a consistent flow of good performances. 

 

Though if you play less tests, you would want to be around 4 or more wkts per test mark. 

Edited by zen
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4 hours ago, zen said:

Yeah, if his performances dictate that. 

 

PS In fact, 60 tests is more than enough if there is a consistent flow of good performances. 

 

Though if you play less tests, you would want to be around 4 or more wkts per test mark. 

Wasim - 100 test

Waqar - 87 test

Imran - 86 test

Dev - 130 test

 

In contrast,

 

Shoaib - 45 test

 

Bumrah will fall below the top tier pack if he doesn't play many games.

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28 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Andy Roberts, Holding, Garner....ATGs or not?

Let's not blindly defend player here just because he plays for India and is our only fast bowler with 100+ wickets and under 25 average.

 

In that era,limited matches were played. You can only play the number of matches that you get to play around. Also, Windies had lot of competitions so hard to drop anyone .

 

If you want examples similar to Bumrah, then Ian Bishop or Akhtar or Thomson are valid examples.

Edited by Majestic
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3 hours ago, Majestic said:

Wasim - 100 test

Waqar - 87 test

Imran - 86 test

Dev - 130 test

 

In contrast,

 

Shoaib - 45 test

 

Bumrah will fall below the top tier pack if he doesn't play many games.


It is what you do in the games that you play that counts. A cricketer can play more or not play more due to a variety of reasons. 
 

For e.g. - Kapil Dev isn’t a World ATG bowler (high bowling avg + SR) whether he plays 130 tests or 200 tests for India (He can be rated as an AR). Similarly, someone like Botham, where you have to talk about “peak” to try to make some sort of a case. 
 

Edited by zen
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2 hours ago, Majestic said:

Let's not blindly defend player here just because he plays for India and is our only fast bowler with 100+ wickets and under 25 average.

 

In that era,limited matches were played. You can only play the number of matches that you get to play around. Also, Windies had lot of competitions so hard to drop anyone .

 

If you want examples similar to Bumrah, then Ian Bishop or Akhtar or Thomson are valid examples.

In that era a lot of test matches were played. 

You are simply wrong. 

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2 hours ago, zen said:


It is what you do in the games that you play that counts. A cricketer can play more or not play more due to a variety of reasons. 
 

For e.g. - Kapil Dev isn’t a World ATG bowler (high bowling avg + SR) whether he plays 130 tests or 200 tests for India (He can be rated as an AR). Similarly, someone like Botham, where you have to talk about “peak” to try to make some sort of a case. 
 

Yeah but that sample should be high too.

 

If Botham retired in 1983, he would have gone down as GOAT? And now that he retires in late 80s, he is only an ATG all rounder?

 

Sample should be considerable enough. If a player doesn't play that many games, it could mean he was no longer good enough to even serve his team or like in Bumrah's case, he kept skipping games every now and then.

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3 hours ago, zen said:


It is what you do in the games that you play that counts. A cricketer can play more or not play more due to a variety of reasons. 
 

For e.g. - Kapil Dev isn’t a World ATG bowler (high bowling avg + SR) whether he plays 130 tests or 200 tests for India (He can be rated as an AR). Similarly, someone like Botham, where you have to talk about “peak” to try to make some sort of a case. 
 

Kapil dev too, until his knee surgery in 1984 had a peak average of 28.xx 66 tests -252 wkts was a  top world-class bowler . He was a different bowler after his knee surgery 

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Focus should be on quality and not cumulative stats. 

 

If Bumrah takes 200+ test wickets averaging 26 or less and has around 4 wickets per test ... he should be an ATG. 

 

He has already played key roles in winning 2 test series in greatly challenging Australia and that should count for a lot along with his stats. 

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1980 (say from the dawn of WI pace attack) and onwards, below are ATG (global, not national) bowlers irrespective of the # of games played (retired):

 

Tier 1 pace

 

Lillee 

Marshall

Hadlee

Imran

Ambrose 

Wasim

Donald

McGrath 

Steyn 

 

Tier 2 pace - Special/rare bowlers (or even for long term consistency or brilliant at peak) bowlers

 

Roberts

Croft

Holding

Garner

Walsh

Waqar

Bond

Akthar 

Pollock

Bishop

etc. 

 

Tier 1 spin

 

Warne

Murali 

 

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27 minutes ago, Lord said:

is Mitchell Johnson an ATG?

 

I think Jason Gillespie is better contender. Average of 26 at end of career and if we look his first 60 matches he averaged 24.79 and picked 234 wickets. He performed well in most conditions as well and bowled in probably best batting era. I doubt though he is considered ATG or Great by most.

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1 hour ago, zen said:

1980 (say from the dawn of WI pace attack) and onwards, below are ATG (global, not national) bowlers irrespective of the # of games played (retired):

 

Tier 1 pace

 

Lillee 

Marshall

Hadlee

Imran

Ambrose 

Wasim

Donald

McGrath 

Steyn 

 

Tier 2 pace - Special/rare bowlers (or even for long term consistency or brilliant at peak) bowlers

 

Roberts

Croft

Holding

Garner

Walsh

Waqar

Bond

Akthar 

Pollock

Bishop

etc. 

 

Tier 1 spin

 

Warne

Murali 

 

I like this list but based on this, Bumrah potentially (considering his fitness concern and now that he is entering in his 30s soon) is a Tier 2 bowler.

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1 hour ago, Nikola said:

 

I think Jason Gillespie is better contender. Average of 26 at end of career and if we look his first 60 matches he averaged 24.79 and picked 234 wickets. He performed well in most conditions as well and bowled in probably best batting era. I doubt though he is considered ATG or Great by most.

Gillispie had the luxury of a strong batting lineup and a bowling attack of McGrath and Warne too. He is a support bowler like Shami( legacy not their bowling skills)  and not many fifers.

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18 hours ago, Majestic said:

If you want examples similar to Bumrah, then Ian Bishop or Akhtar or Thomson are valid examples.

Post injury Thomson after the collision with Alan Turner was nowhere near the bowler pre-injury. He had flashes but was not elite. Pre-injury Thomson was the reason Australia were elite and humiliated the WI 5-1 in Aus. WI had won the Perth test convincingly. Then Thomson showed why he was the fastest bowler in the world. He took the first 5 WI wickets at Melbourne 5-62.... He then took 6-50(WI scored 128 in I2) at Sydney and series was 3-1 and ended 5-1. Someone in WI maybe Lloyd said that the difference after Perth was Thomson. 

 

After this injury Thomson was just another bowler - before he was frightening. Never mind Bumrah - nobody has been like pre-injury Thommo.

 

 

Edited by AKane
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1 hour ago, AKane said:

Post injury Thomson after the collision with Alan Turner was nowhere near the bowler pre-injury. He had flashes but was not elite. Pre-injury Thomson was the reason Australia were elite and humiliated the WI 5-1 in Aus. WI had won the Perth test convincingly. Then Thomson showed why he was the fastest bowler in the world. He took the first 5 WI wickets at Melbourne 5-62.... He then took 6-50(WI scored 128 in I2) at Sydney and series was 3-1 and ended 5-1. Someone in WI maybe Lloyd said that the difference after Perth was Thomson. 

 

After this injury Thomson was just another bowler - before he was frightening. Never mind Bumrah - nobody has been like pre-injury Thommo.

 

 

Was pre-injury Thomson better than Lillee or better than Akhtar version of 1998-2003.

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