"Muslims of India support Pakistan against India": Rana Naved-ul-Hasan makes controversial statement ahead of Indo-Pak 2023 World Cup game

[randomGuy]

 

 

18 minutes ago, someone said:

You take things personally. Time, or the lack of time greatly determines choices, and passion.

 

Thus, it's always different as one grows...

No my friend... passion is not the issue...I like math for ex. I studied the machine learning MIT course for learning the mathematics behind linear regression, neural networks etc...I studied most of what they teach in MA statistics for the love of maths....I study theorems formulas their proofs for all-time great mathematicians like eular Newton guass Riemann ramanujan etc, to try to put myself into their shoes, to imagine how the moment of inspiration may have come.. recently I dug into a lot nutrition fitness and lifestyle channels , watching a lot of vids and incorporating selective things into lifestyle...the other day I was learning Telugu words and grammar...I follow sports as well.,  I study a lot on demographics macroeconomics...

 

Again a lot of choices today and I am more aware and as 'passionate' likely more...I will follow cricket as well when we have more bumrahs, coz I like fast bowling , leg spin, who doesn't? You should not think that you are a patron of cricket and have to show allegiance....be sure to expand your horizons there are a lot more engaging and satisfying things out there...

[Mariyam]

On 7/16/2023 at 11:59 PM, rollingstoned said:

If the State wants to deal with it, it has the resources to do so. Without a civil war too I might add. But for that the State itself will need to stop lying both to itself and the population about it. The reverse has been the case since Independence for the most part.

Lying about what?

 

What exactly do you propose the state deal with? And how?

[Mariyam]

A thread about a long forgotten Pak cricketer's 10 second sound byte with a seemingly outrageous claim segues into a conversation about all Muslims leaving India.

 

Bravo ICF!

 

 

[Mariyam]

4 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Good post.

 

I often think about a time in the future (maybe in my lifetime) when the US fields a decent cricket team and plays against India. As a US citizen, am I obligated to support the US cricket team?  I simply cannot do it.  I am not really a cricket fan, I am a fan of Indian cricket.

 

I was a huge fan of Serena Williams when she played, but on the day she played against Sania Mirza in the US Open several years ago, I was rooting for Sania Mirza. In terms of sports fan-dom, Indian teams/individuals first.

 

You've spent your formative years in India. You needn't support the US national side 

Altogether a different matter whom your grand kids should root for. Wait, ideally a sentence shouldn't end with a preposition. Altogether a different matter for whom your grand kids root.

 

Levity aside, supporting Pakistan in cricket and chanting religious slogans after a Pakistani win are two different things.

There were times when the Pakistan team were likeable for cricketing reasons. If one likes Akmal's or Wasim's or Shoiab's bowling there is nothing wrong with that. 

If on the backs of a Pakistani win,  people in India are compelled to take processions chanting slogans of a religious nature; there is everything wrong with that.

 

Then you are essentially validating the ideology of Pakistan and displaying an animosity to the concept of India. That should have no space in sport. Or our society.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Mariyam

[Mariyam]

On 7/15/2023 at 11:56 PM, Norman said:

Where's the lie though? I think I have shared this story before as well on this forum but here we go again...

 

About 15 years back when I was in secondary school, we (me and my family) used to live in a neighborhood that was >90% Muslim. Shiny green flags, skull caps, Beef shops, Islamic Chanells/songs blasted our on TVs everywhere...you get the picture. Whenever Pakistan won against us, people used to burst crackers and celebrate on the roads while shouting Ola hu Uber at the top of their lungs. Even my classmates (again, almost all M's) used to openly support them and abuse indian non-Muslim players. Used to boil my blood, but there was nothing I could do. Fortunately, for the duration we were living there,  Pak beat us only once in champions trophy 2009 and we kept on thumping them until the aane do series by which time we had moved to a different place. 

 

 

Point is .... For most subcontinent Muslims, religious loyalty comes a distance first. Especially for the Indian ones, who have been and will forever be living under constant paranoia of the Hindu majority. They'll never support a team which is overwhelmingly non-Muslim over a team that is 100% Muslim. 

I've stayed in two different Muslim majority areas of Mumbai for a substantial portion of my pre-college life. I've hardly come across cases where people supported Pakistan.

 

The street celebrations after the 2011 WC win against Pak were just as wild as those after the win in the final.

Youtube celebration vids and you'd see all kinds of localities including Agripada, Bohri Mohalla, various swathes of Mohammad Ali Road and Mahim.

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Mariyam

[BacktoCricaddict]

6 hours ago, Mariyam said:

I've stayed in two different Muslim majority areas of Mumbai for a substantial portion of my pre-college life. I've hardly come across cases where people supported Pakistan.

 

The street celebrations after the 2011 WC win against Pak were just as wild as those after the win in the final.

Youtube celebration vids and you'd see all kinds of localities including Agripada, Bohri Mohalla, various swathes of Mohammad Ali Road and Mahim.

 

It's also disconcerting that you are put in the position of having to verbally prove your patriotism and that of your community.

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by BacktoCricaddict

[rollingstoned]

16 hours ago, Mariyam said:

Lying about what?

 

What exactly do you propose the state deal with? And how?

Where do I begin? The truth about the nature of Islam and it's fundamentals and trying to differentiate between Islam and Islamic extremism as though they were 2 separate things, trying to whitewash the history of Islamic invasions, obscuring the root cause of the 2NT and it's true historical background thus also promoting a fraudulent chimera called ganga jamuni tehzeeb which has little to no basis in reality and not willing to acknowledge the threat pandering to Islam will have on the core nature of the Indian state and the Indic civilization when one takes cognizance of what happens when Muslims cross a certain threshold of the population in any country ie the performative bangle breaking around 'secularism' which we often hear that will actually come under threat should this come to pass.

If the problem is Islam itself then the solution is quite a simple one, if a politically incorrect one that the State itself should take upon itself to address with it's considerable resources if it acknowledges it. Another thing if you do not want to do that but take refuge in woolly headed idealism and gaslighting as has been par for the course so far. Of course it will not sit well with you as a Muslim - among others - and I understand that but that does not change reality. And it's not necessary it should come to a civil war if such steps are taken. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by rollingstoned

[rollingstoned]

14 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

It's also disconcerting that you are put in the position of having to verbally prove your patriotism and that of your community.

 

It should be no problem for a 'patriot' to call a spade a spade and admit when their 'community' has had form for repeatedly are hostile to whatever ideals the nation represents especially when that same community carved out a separate state based on the same fundamentals that the ones here profess to adhere to not long ago meaning that the idea itself has not died. But no, one is just supposed to believe that because they stay here - and only because they and their forefathers believed in the 'idea of India' we are told, never mind other reasons for them doing so- their dedication to India's cause is supposed to be unimpeachable and any objection to the same dismissed with stale platitudes that have little basis in reality but only have currency because of the veneer of political correctness that has been carefully applied over them over time. Refusing to do so only means that the person puts the community over country without saying as much, it's as simple as that regardless of hoarse claims to the contrary by the same people who will try to disown them.

Edited July 19, 2023 by rollingstoned

[khadekhademaaro]

14 hours ago, Mariyam said:

A thread about a long forgotten Pak cricketer's 10 second sound byte with a seemingly outrageous claim segues into a conversation about all Muslims leaving India.

 

Bravo ICF!

 

 

Not all, only those who love Pakistan. Surely they can go. What is wrong in that?

[Ranvir]

23 hours ago, Gollum said:

Bhai, wrong comparison. Totally wrong.

 

India and UK are not mortal enemies. Diplomatically we have decent enough relations, our armies regularly participate in joint military drills....economically, culturally as well not bad....can be better but at least not a disaster. Pakistan OTOH is having its mujahideen camps (state sponsored) 20 km away from LoC and sending those jihadi scumbags ever so often to destroy peace in Kashmir. They don't have aata to feed their awam but still want to bleed India to death by 1000 cuts. Nuisance terror state which has close to zero positive contribution to the world in the last 7 decades.....their only claim to fame is hosting Osama 100m away from a Pak military camp when he was the most wanted man on this planet.  

 

Sure several of these European countries have caused immeasurable harm to Asia/Africa...India too a major victim. But if you stretch back by a few centuries, there were brutal invasions. Still we aren't enemies with modern day Turkey, Iran, Mongolia, Central Asian states just because of painful history. Pakistan is a different case, they have rejected every Indian offer of friendship and have started all wars. When a peacenik like Vajpayee took that historic bus ride to Lahore, those *ers were making their move in Kargil, snakes all of them.

 

I can assure you that if Indian fans support Eng in some cricket or football match, it won't be a big issue. Sure they may get some weird looks and may be accused of having sepoy mentality, but no harm, mostly banter. We even have so many youngsters in India leaving everything aside and running fan clubs for EPL sides, for them EPL is more precious than any Indian national team, do they get dirty looks? No. Tomorrow if some national side with big players from top European club sides (esp EPL ones) plays a football game in one of our metros against our national side, you'll be surprised to see the number of Les Bleus or Three Lions shirts. 

 

Seeing hordes of people filling out a stadium for a leader of a country they are no longer a citizen of and have no plans of returning to is suspicious to the native Brits, they don't like it. 

Indian muslims may not agree with the terrorism supported by the Pakistani government but they see that they have a lot in common with the Pakistani players themselves. It is what it is. 

If those Indian football fans started waving England and French flags at a game between India and those countries you would not like it, especially if India was a half decent side. 

[diga]

19 hours ago, Mariyam said:

I've stayed in two different Muslim majority areas of Mumbai for a substantial portion of my pre-college life. I've hardly come across cases where people supported Pakistan.

 

The street celebrations after the 2011 WC win against Pak were just as wild as those after the win in the final.

Youtube celebration vids and you'd see all kinds of localities including Agripada, Bohri Mohalla, various swathes of Mohammad Ali Road and Mahim.

 

Believe its to do with education levels.. am sure you stayed in affluent areas. 

 

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, diga said:

Believe its to do with education levels.. am sure you stayed in affluent areas. 

 

SoBo crowd

[ravishingravi]

I think this one complex issue and one can't paint it with broad brush. 

 

1) Can you support opposition if they are playing against your country ? Look at Indians and Pakistani origin folks abroad. Happens all the time. Look at Moroccans and Algériens in France. I am sure this can also be contentious but I feel matured nations should learn to deal with this. 

 

2) But but but. This is about Pakistan. Yes that makes it worse. I would say this phenomenon is mainly north India which may have some cultural connect with them. There is also the element of playing provocateur and riling up the nations. Way of showing dissent and nothing else. 

 

3) People tend to forget that majority of Muslims voted for a separate nation where they understood what it means or not is a separate issue. By and large they have integrated into this nations fabric but it would foolish to think that there are not those who don't belong here. 

 

It's best to ignore rather falling for this again and again. Important to remember that Pakistan is brought up on this idea that Muslims in India are rooting for them and want to be a part of them. Just don't see any Muslims lining up on the border and crossing over at the moment. But Pakistan's core strategy is to sow divisions and keep Muslims separate from the mainstream in India. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

On 7/18/2023 at 11:43 PM, rollingstoned said:

It should be no problem for a 'patriot' to call a spade a spade and admit when their 'community' has had form for repeatedly are hostile to whatever ideals the nation represents especially when that same community carved out a separate state based on the same fundamentals that the ones here profess to adhere to not long ago meaning that the idea itself has not died. But no, one is just supposed to believe that because they stay here - and only because they and their forefathers believed in the 'idea of India' we are told, never mind other reasons for them doing so- their dedication to India's cause is supposed to be unimpeachable and any objection to the same dismissed with stale platitudes that have little basis in reality but only have currency because of the veneer of political correctness that has been carefully applied over them over time. Refusing to do so only means that the person puts the community over country without saying as much, it's as simple as that regardless of hoarse claims to the contrary by the same people who will try to disown them.

 

Suspicion against 200 million people based on the actions of a small fraction of those is unjustified. The patriotism bar should be the same for everyone - regardless of religion or any other label.  What litmus test are you going to apply to each citizen that helps "prove" their patriotism?  I have Muslim friends who fly the tirangaa in front of their house, something that none of my Hindu friends do. Whom do I deport and to where and based on what? 

 

There are people of all religions who are mass-murderers, serial-rapists, large-tax evaders etc.  Every one of their actions is exponentially more detrimental to the nation than any amount of sloganeering.  Where are you going to ship all these hardened criminals off to? 

 

Now, if the sloganeering turns into actual seditious activity, then arrest them and lock them up or do whatever the law dictates.  India is a civilized nation founded on the rule of law, and let that always be the case.

 

[Suhaan]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

I have Muslim friends who fly the tirangaa in front of their house, something that none of my Hindu friends do

So?does it warrant they don't have soft corner for Pakistan?

Not about your friends exactly,they maybe real India lovers

 

Waving Indian flag doesn't mean they love the majority culture or people,you will get n number of incidents of them totally disrespecting local majority culture,spitting ,throwing meat in religious processions is common in India,not can talk about you but can't earn my trust atleast by waving Indian flag

 

[ravishingravi]

All this nautanki doesn't help. There needs to clear ground up call for absolute integration. The elites have captured the narrative. They don't have to prove their patriotism but they must outright denounce forces that speak for them. 

 

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1681605780011888641?t=Ab-VFUUDwhXqkWLXJb2kkA&s=19

[rollingstoned]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

 

Suspicion against 200 million people based on the actions of a small fraction of those is unjustified. The patriotism bar should be the same for everyone - regardless of religion or any other label.  What litmus test are you going to apply to each citizen that helps "prove" their patriotism?  I have Muslim friends who fly the tirangaa in front of their house, something that none of my Hindu friends do. Whom do I deport and to where and based on what? 

 

There are people of all religions who are mass-murderers, serial-rapists, large-tax evaders etc.  Every one of their actions is exponentially more detrimental to the nation than any amount of sloganeering.  Where are you going to ship all these hardened criminals off to? 

 

Now, if the sloganeering turns into actual seditious activity, then arrest them and lock them up or do whatever the law dictates.  India is a civilized nation founded on the rule of law, and let that always be the case.

 

Suspicion of 200 mn Is because of the ideology which they profess to adhere to which any sane person who is cognizant of the same is quite wise to be suspicious of if they still have their wits about them and have cared to understand history. Things which won't change just because they're not politically correct and shatter quite a few comforting lies. The number I suppose is meant to discourage someone from solving it - admitting thus in some way that it does Infact exist - in which case it is better to just roll over and throw in the towel.  If it's our problem and we don't intend to do the latter then we should seek solutions instead of merely trying to kick the can down the road and make it more difficult to deal with which is why it even got to this point. A honest attempt to learn from history would have been sufficient tbh. 

 

Re litmus test for patriotism it's quite simple and straightforward and still remains the same for everyone. Support for any ideology, religion or movement which as its core stated aim seeks the dismemberment of the Indian nation and its borders or the alteration of the Indic nationhood and the erasure of its culture deserve to have their hostility reciprocated and recognised without any prejudice. It's not just Islamists in this category as there is quite a large 5th column in India of other stripes too. Shallow yardsticks based on performative acts like hoisting flags Don't feature into it even though your personal anecdote is outweighed by much more evidence in public domain to the contrary of deenis going further than this. One evidence is an MLA from Mumbai himself who is not alone among deenis to espouse such views. 

https://www.firstpost.com/india/cant-say-vande-mataram-we-believe-in-allah-sp-mla-abu-azmi-sparks-controversy-12886262.html

Extend this also to Bharat mata ki jai which they have had issues with and you tell me why you should not take a community with suspicion which has come to consider even basic iconography of the national civic faith as being squarely against it's religious beliefs. One has to admire their clarity even as the ones who make excuses for them are hopelessly confused in how they even want to defend them. Your avg joe who perhaps does not engage in this has apathy to mostly account for it and not religious expression which means even hypothetically the two are not the same in such a comparison so the question of deportation - another straw man - does not enter it when no one asked for it especially for a different issue. 

 

The 'all religions have their bad apples' shtick is as stale as it's cliched and wears especially thin when one assumes quite ignorantly that all religions must be the same which is patently false. But more importantly every crime you mentioned there is not only sanctioned but encouraged in Islam if it furthers the cause of Islam. You need only go through both the Qur'an and Hadiths to be aware of this. So while individually tax evasion, mass murder and serial rapes are all reprehensible and deserve the strictest punishment - which they do - they are still not as inimical to the security of a state and the health of a civilization the way that these same acts committed by an idoelogy which believes in Ghazwa e hind and the subjugation of the infidels by using any means necessary to eventually establish an Islamic sharia complaint state are. At any rate, one mustn't assume that the security and law and order apparatus  can only do one thing at a time as though it were playing whack-a-mole to then disingenuously claim that some problems are more important than others. It's not zero sum that way. 

 

 

Would that the issue were just empty slogans from those who got ahead of themselves. To preserve rule of law you need to often act proactively and not sit on your hands and wait until something happens just so you then react, at least not in matters of national security if you're serious about it and can predict with reasonable accuracy what's going to happen if you're taking the cues you should be. Most importantly identify the root cause and not just the symptoms for elimination.