coffee_rules Posted July 27 Posted July 27 1 hour ago, Lord said: Its good if such protests keep coming if they are not hijacked. Opposition is useless anyway so citizens have to unite Except that no opposition party will touch this issue even with 12 feet pole. We need a NGO to publish status on how useful reservations are to lower cash and within them. During the caste census data in Bihar it came out that Yadav’s and Kurmosv are the richest landlords with most number of tractors/vehicles owned in Bihar. Lord 1
coffee_rules Posted July 27 Posted July 27 Somebody has to start talking about it and calling a spade a spade.
mishra Posted July 27 Posted July 27 (edited) Based on experience as i come from a village. 1. I have seen benefits of reservation going to a single family for generations. Infact one family i know of is so powerful rich and famous that most Indian know him but that its unfair to put his name on forum as they are frnds. So concept of creamy layer doesn’t exist. Reservation is mostly helping same families however way government tries to fullproof it. 2 Mandal Commission saw several hundred times agitation and self immolation and violence than CJP but still government didn’t budge. Infact there is a whole generation of upper caste families who we’re unfortunately doing Uni at the time and their families are living in extreme poverty. Upoer caste has a pride so they never come out asking for help other than from their own family members. Not even Government. Despite all that they prepared their next gen for pvt sector. Upper caste has learned the lesson hard way. They don’t rely on government nor they have expectation of change. Edited July 27 by mishra Sgattick10, Lord and singhvivek141 1 2
Lord Posted July 27 Posted July 27 28 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: Somebody has to start talking about it and calling a spade a spade. He's talking about it today too. This is from a event
Lord Posted July 28 Posted July 28 4 hours ago, coffee_rules said: Somebody has to start talking about it and calling a spade a spade. Got this in replies coffee_rules 1
Trichromatic Posted July 28 Posted July 28 7 hours ago, coffee_rules said: It’s a chicken and egg situation. How do you eradicate casteism and still have reservations based on caste? So everybody has declare their caste for reservations, how do you eradicate caste system and the hierarchy when you have reservations for people based on caste? There is no single line answer to this. How it can be done, that policy makers will have to figure out.
Trichromatic Posted July 28 Posted July 28 10 hours ago, Trichromatic said: People argue that reservations are keeping country behind - how do they support this with progress trend of country? Ever since industrial revolution took place, country where mostly Khastriyas and Brahmins held most of the power kept going back. Lost country to British, had to struggle 200 years to get independence - and that struggle was a mass movement. Since 1947-1990, 80% opportunities were open to all and yet country remained most backward in those days. Right now country has prospred a lot. If this was single biggest reason holding back country, then India would have been better in 50s-90s and would have been on downward trajectory. Extending on this, which problem are people trying to solve? From the arguments presented here and social media, these look like common feelings. Add more to the list. 1. SC/ST/OBCs are holding back development of country. Incompetent ones are being selected in large numbers and reason for medical negligence, bad infrastructure, poor roads etc. 2. GCs are forced to go to US and Europe because their opportunities are taken up by SC/ST/OBCs. Had they not left due to reservations, India would have been progressing lot faster and would have been much better country. Removing reservations will prevent them from going to US/Europe etc. 3. GCs are worried about that SC/ST/OBCs are not getting fair distribution and select few with reserved are taking up all opportunities. 3. It's a problem of social inequality and feeling of being wronged among GCs which needs to be addressed. coffee_rules 1
coffee_rules Posted July 28 Posted July 28 57 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: There is no single line answer to this. How it can be done, that policy makers will have to figure out. Make reservations only on economy grounds for all castes, that will make all castes equal and also irrelevant Lord 1
singhvivek141 Posted July 28 Posted July 28 1 hour ago, coffee_rules said: Make reservations only on economy grounds for all castes, that will make all castes equal and also irrelevant Question is who will do that ? Govt. can't do, it ensures they will lose the next election 100%, people in India will even vote for Asim Munir in power if he give them freebies. No one will kill their political career just to be righteous to the society. Congress winning the election will give a free ride to terrorists and they'll roam openly in India and blow up our citizens in cities like Bengaluru, Chennai, Hyderabad, Ahmedabad, Kolkata, Mumbai, Delhi, Pune...which are the key drivers of our economy. Lord 1
Trichromatic Posted July 28 Posted July 28 1 hour ago, coffee_rules said: Make reservations only on economy grounds for all castes, that will make all castes equal and also irrelevant Check my previous post, which problem are you looking to solve?
New guy Posted July 28 Posted July 28 4 hours ago, Trichromatic said: Extending on this, which problem are people trying to solve? From the arguments presented here and social media, these look like common feelings. Add more to the list. 1. SC/ST/OBCs are holding back development of country. Incompetent ones are being selected in large numbers and reason for medical negligence, bad infrastructure, poor roads etc. 2. GCs are forced to go to US and Europe because their opportunities are taken up by SC/ST/OBCs. Had they not left due to reservations, India would have been progressing lot faster and would have been much better country. Removing reservations will prevent them from going to US/Europe etc. 3. GCs are worried about that SC/ST/OBCs are not getting fair distribution and select few with reserved are taking up all opportunities. 3. It's a problem of social inequality and feeling of being wronged among GCs which needs to be addressed. No actual numbers support these claims though. Its a bunch of privelaged extremists who "feel" that these things are happening because people are trying to help the marginalized And the day we pander to the feelings of low IQ privelaged extremists, is the day we are finished as a nation. Privelaged selfish losers acting victim when someone tries to help the marginalized is a tale as old as time. Stan AF 1
mishra Posted July 28 Posted July 28 6 minutes ago, New guy said: No actual numbers support these claims though. Its a bunch of privelaged extremists who "feel" that these things are happening because people are trying to help the marginalized And the day we pander to the feelings of low IQ privelaged extremists, is the day we are finished as a nation. Privelaged selfish losers acting victim when someone tries to help the marginalized is a tale as old as time. Supress the talent, what will you get. Have some common sense. I have mooved to West here too i see a whole bunch of people who are now living on state handouts for generations and State or politicians do not have balls to take action. You reward mediocrity you get mediocrity. Then stop complaining that you are unable to compete with East like Japan Korea china Taiwan and so on. coffee_rules, LordPrabhzy and Sgattick10 1 2
Mariyam Posted July 28 Posted July 28 (edited) 7 hours ago, Trichromatic said: Check my previous post, which problem are you looking to solve? Your posts do not even acknowledge, let alone address the proverbial spanner in the works in this discussion. The dangling of quotas as an electoral carrot. That is what it has come to. Political parties are in a game of one-upmanship to convince large groups of people that they are rightful recipients of State largesse. Politically it is the easiest thing to do. It consolidates a voting bloc for a party. And in India, once benefits are accorded to a group its near impossible to rescind them. Now if BJP has decided to give freebies (cash handouts or quotas) the opposition has to promise more to win votes. In the long run this is an unsustainable model. One doesn't have to be Dr Raghuram Rajan or Dr Amartya Sen to see that. Edited July 28 by Mariyam mishra and coffee_rules 1 1
Mariyam Posted July 28 Posted July 28 (edited) 5 hours ago, New guy said: No actual numbers support these claims though. Its a bunch of privelaged extremists who "feel" that these things are happening because people are trying to help the marginalized And the day we pander to the feelings of low IQ privelaged extremists, is the day we are finished as a nation. Privelaged selfish losers acting victim when someone tries to help the marginalized is a tale as old as time. Except that, as @ravishingravi had put it very aptly years ago in a post: it has become an Olympics of victimhood. Every community/sect/caste wants to claim perpetual victim status. Case in point, The Marathas of Maharashtra. Comprise 33-40% of the population. Land holding group and have been erstwhile rulers. They are agitating for reservation. This isn't a marginalized minority somewhere but a sizable chunk of the population. Same has happened with Jaats in Haryana and Rajasthan. Erstwhile land holding rulers agitating, violently at times for reservations. The idea that reservations are necessary is sound. The current form of enforcement of reservation in the country leaves much to be desired. Edited July 28 by Mariyam coffee_rules, Sgattick10, ravishingravi and 1 other 1 3
coffee_rules Posted July 28 Posted July 28 8 hours ago, singhvivek141 said: Question is who will do that ? Govt. can't do, it ensures they will lose the next election 100%, people in India will even vote for Asim Munir in power if he give them freebies. No one will kill their political career just to be righteous to the society. Congress winning the election will give a free ride to terrorists and they'll roam openly in India and blow up our citizens in cities like Bengaluru, Chennai, Hyderabad, Ahmedabad, Kolkata, Mumbai, Delhi, Pune...which are the key drivers of our economy. That is a starting point of discussion - to make reservations based on economic basis.. Who will do it and how it will be done is for future relations to decide. But there is not even one politicalperson even talking about it in our generation. The purpose of this movement is to start the conversation about reservations, not increase it further like Rahul Gandhi or Sapa or Bhajapa wants to do. mishra 1
coffee_rules Posted July 28 Posted July 28 8 hours ago, Trichromatic said: Check my previous post, which problem are you looking to solve? Both issues being discussed here – caste system, and reservations.
coffee_rules Posted July 28 Posted July 28 (edited) 16 hours ago, mishra said: Based on experience as i come from a village. 1. I have seen benefits of reservation going to a single family for generations. Infact one family i know of is so powerful rich and famous that most Indian know him but that its unfair to put his name on forum as they are frnds. So concept of creamy layer doesn’t exist. Reservation is mostly helping same families however way government tries to fullproof it. 2 Mandal Commission saw several hundred times agitation and self immolation and violence than CJP but still government didn’t budge. Infact there is a whole generation of upper caste families who we’re unfortunately doing Uni at the time and their families are living in extreme poverty. Upoer caste has a pride so they never come out asking for help other than from their own family members. Not even Government. Despite all that they prepared their next gen for pvt sector. Upper caste has learned the lesson hard way. They don’t rely on government nor they have expectation of change. That sums up the experience of most of us who grew up in the eighties/90s. After my +2, a lot of students were struggling to pass JEE, and these two guys who used to come with rich clothes and in rich cars, got into IT because they were having a lower cut off due to their castes. Somebody has to address the creamy layer problem of reservations that has been going for 75+ years. The same family or multiple generations of the same family keep getting the benefits without reaching the real poor castes. The son of a Delli MLA gets political preferences and later on becomes the CJI of india, he still brandishes his caste when his actions were questioned Edited July 28 by coffee_rules mishra 1
coffee_rules Posted July 28 Posted July 28 5 hours ago, New guy said: No actual numbers support these claims though. Its a bunch of privelaged extremists who "feel" that these things are happening because people are trying to help the marginalized And the day we pander to the feelings of low IQ privelaged extremists, is the day we are finished as a nation. Privelaged selfish losers acting victim when someone tries to help the marginalized is a tale as old as time. Privileged, oppressed, oppressing, when will you start removing your liberal eyeglasses and look at the problem in hand without any biases? Are reservations a problem in the country or not? Is caste discrimination increasing because of the reservations? How do we get rid of caste system without addressing reservations? diga 1
coffee_rules Posted July 28 Posted July 28 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mariyam said: Except that, as @ravishingravi had put it very aptly years ago in a post: it has become an Olympics of victimhood. Every community/sect/caste wants to claim perpetual victim status. Case in point, The Marathas of Maharashtra. Comprise 33-40% of the population. Land holding group and have been erstwhile rulers. They are agitating for reservation. This isn't a marginalized minority somewhere but a sizable chunk of the population. Same has happened with Jaats in Haryana and Rajasthan. Erstwhile land holding rulers agitating, violently at times for reservations. The idea that reservations are necessary is sound. The current form of enforcement of reservation in the country leaves much to be desired. You have to add rich, landowning, powerful castes like Vokkaligas, Kurubas, Yadavs, Kurmis, Vanniyars are classified as OBC, and get about 28% of reservations. But still the liberal class and elite class of india run this oppressive – oppressed narrative without knowing the ground reality. Edited July 28 by coffee_rules
mishra Posted July 28 Posted July 28 (edited) 4 hours ago, coffee_rules said: Privileged, oppressed, oppressing, when will you start removing your liberal eyeglasses and look at the problem in hand without any biases? Are reservations a problem in the country or not? Is caste discrimination increasing because of the reservations? How do we get rid of caste system without addressing reservations? To me indicator to moove on from reservation is : Social acceptance of inter caste marriage and kicking out of untouchabilty from system. Question is, Should we wait till its eradicated completely from system or shall we start having this discussion knowing fully well that Gen Z or Gen Alpha actually dont have untouchabilty and are okie with inter caste marriage. On issue of untouchabilty my assessment is absolutely cleared from cities and towns. Relatively Watered down in villages. Intercaste marriage is tough cookie. Society is still outcasting a family for inter caste marriage, and on this I think we are 2-3 decades away. Since we can not strikeoff caste based reservation in one go, A discussion needs to begin on alternative reservation system. May be that dialogue will change the mind of some people to moove to EWS reservation and make it easier for government to switch to EWS based reservation Edited July 28 by mishra Mariyam 1
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