Indian test cricket from depths of despair to Bright sunshine from Dhoni to Virat the journey , compare

[Bigg Brother]

18 minutes ago, Viper said:

 So you are telling me zim team goes to wc just to appear ? You are the one who used the word PROCESS not me.. If you took the wrong meaning of what he meant then no one can help you. That's exactly what people with neg thinking do.. so go ahead and try to look for more neg's as usual from the B lobby..  Compared to what they say My words are nothing.. 

 

B Lobby already got down so low.. Don't think it has any quality left 

Coming from an utterly low quality and hypocrite poster..I am sorry,I quit...Arguing with poster like you is creating my image as a Dhoni hater here which I am not..I admire Dhoni even more than his fans!!!

Edited July 26, 2016 by Bigg Brother

[philcric]

So, let me get this right ..

 

Losing a test match by an innings inside 3 days is exactly same as losing a test match in the final hour on the 5th day after a spirited batting performance in the 4th innings, because 'at the end of the day' both tests were lost.

 

Makes sense. Not.

 

[youngindia]

17 hours ago, MCcricket said:

Poster above is missing a fundamental issue that is number of overs each bowler has to bowl , so even a wkt taking bowlers used like a stock bowler, with 4 bowlers how many captains will enforce a follow on, also you will see the difference in speeds n efforts all day round with 5 bowlers , so it's to me a short sighted debate, 5 bowlers or a decent allrounder with 4 main bowlers

Even hypothetically speaking if 5 or 6 bowlers bring out the best effort in our bowlers, what is the use of the bowler's best when he is not good enough? have you thought about it

 

If the best of ishant and umesh can only get us  14 wickets a match, thats how its  going to be.

 

are you saying they would be averaging 28 if they were given "rest" or some magic potion in the dressing room

 

so think about the bowler's best  first....my point our bowlers even at our best are not good enough to down experienced batsmen of major sides often.

 

The fundamental issue you are missing is there is no evidence in the real world that we can take  with 5 bowlers against major sides in their dens

 

or else it would have happened regularly. certainly it could have helped us avert a 16 year embarasssment between 1986 and 2002 

 

is it so hard to stick to facts and evidence available? 

 

why are you writing fiction?  

 

for 30 years i have seen  this nonsense peddled by our cricketers past and present...so far the solution is nowhere in sight

 

 

.,when it happens in real life i will take you seriously..and its not going to happen.,

 

 

Edited July 26, 2016 by youngindia
edt

[youngindia]

11 hours ago, express bowling said:

I am not in favour of being dogmatic about fixing the number of bowlers, either 4 or 5,  in the team and it should be decided based on the situation.

 

   Maybe respect cricketing history and commonsense?  

 

History shows 6 batsmen are the feasible number.

 

if your top 4 is not good enough to take 20 wickets, that certainly  implies you are not a country that can take 20 wickets regularly .

let me end it there.

 

hence rest of the points are moot.

 

[youngindia]

10 hours ago, philcric said:

This is a good post which explains it in a very simple way. The theory is so basic and obvious that it needn't be explained in the first place, but this forum seems to struggle to grasp even the simplest of concepts.

 

 

the simplest of concept to grasp is problems with  bowling are way too deep an issue to be addressed by hiring another average bowler.!

 

The simplest of fact is we went 16 years without a win outside subcontinent from 1986 to 2002.. pity we didnt listen to einsteins in this forum and giant intellectuals like gavaskar all these years. 

 

 

 

5th bowler helps a great deal to an average/decent bowling attack, which is what India is. In fact 5th bowler has great use for all the test teams at present.

 

Maybe in you dream land maybe

 

where is the real world evidence it helps indian cricket outside asia ?

 

so we take 14 wickets on average  with 4 bowlers...i challenge you to see ,if they can take better this average with 5 bowlers if the bowler is of the quality of binny ...does not the quality of the ffith bowler matter?

 

how it going to help our bowlers be of better quality? how is another ineffective bowler going to be of help?

 

yet it "helps a great deal"....yeah right  

 

the problems with our bowling is not addressed but its supposed to help.

 

 

 

 

[Vilander]

On 7/25/2016 at 3:49 AM, philcric said:

I feel we have to stop bringing Dhoni into the match threads and threads discussing other players. He has retired from test cricket and it's time for us to move on. Because Dhoni has achieved some awesome highs and ridiculous lows, people subconsciously fall into being either fanboys or haters. The truth is Dhoni was neither as great as the fanboys think nor as pathetic as the haters think. 

 

Constant Dhoni bashing doesn't serve any purpose anymore, it will alienate people who like Dhoni and in a perverse way they may want Kohli (and India) to fail. I can already see signs of it in the match thread.

 

IMO, Kohli has a great appetite to build a team, and he made a really good start. For a team in transition and some obvious gaps, it's progressing quite well. It's time to back him in full force, without comparing him to Dhoni. Dhoni got an unconditional backing from everyone when he became the captain in 2007-08. Kohli too deserves the same.

 

Good post.

[Vilander]

17 hours ago, MCcricket said:

Poster above is missing a fundamental issue that is number of overs each bowler has to bowl , so even a wkt taking bowlers used like a stock bowler, with 4 bowlers how many captains will enforce a follow on, also you will see the difference in speeds n efforts all day round with 5 bowlers , so it's to me a short sighted debate, 5 bowlers or a decent allrounder with 4 main bowlers

There is some credence in this post. I dont remember ever seeing Shami hit 149 in a test match, and Ishant/Yadav were also consistently quick.  May be 5 bowlers means fast bowlers can go all out.

[youngindia]

50 minutes ago, Vilander said:

 

 

 

Look let me make one thing clear.

 

Even if its true  that 5 bowlers can help our bowlers to perform to the optimum (and i can only chuckle at that), it does not address the problems of indian fast bowling by a long long way!

 

because even the optimum levels of our fast bowlers at present is not good enough!

 

 so what is the practical use of umesh averaging 35 or ishant 34 a few points above their existing averages ????????   

 

 

Our problems are our bowlers neither have the quality,skills nor the intellect to defeat our  tormentors from the opposition .

 

cause our problem is our very best is not good enough  !

 

can they adjust to an "australian length" ? can they discipline thsemlves outside off? can they break down a top batsman? 

 

 can they beat kallis when he is stonewalling us ? why are the averages of even our best bowlers barring maybe kapil so poor on so many overseas tours more often than not...

 

All this rest, going all out blah blah is not going to  help indian bowling improve at a strategic level.

 

These thorny issues have to be addressed

 

 

 

 

 

The posts here are speculating about imaginary rest or imaginary best of our bowlers while their averages are in the HIGH 30 s!

these are like suggestions from a jawan doing field duty! or anil kapoor dismissing employees on nayak!

 

And how are we  going to improve indian bowling to the point they can take 20 wickets regualrly overseas?

how are we going to find better  talent?

 

 by hiring hacks like binny to bowl 11-15  overs????

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2016 by youngindia
edt

[Vilander]

42 minutes ago, youngindia said:

 

 

Look let me make one thing clear.

 

Even if its true  that 5 bowlers can help our bowlers to perform to the optimum (and i can only chuckle at that), it does not address the problems of indian fast bowling by a long long way!

 

because even the optimum levels of our fast bowlers at present is not good enough!

 

 so what is the practical use of umesh averaging 35 or ishant 34 a few points above their existing averages ????????   

 

 

Our problems are our bowlers neither have the quality,skills nor the intellect to defeat our  tormentors from the opposition .

 

cause our problem is our very best is not good enough  !

 

can they adjust to an "australian length" ? can they discipline thsemlves outside off? can they break down a top batsman? 

 

 can they beat kallis when he is stonewalling us ? why are the averages of even our best bowlers barring maybe kapil so poor on so many overseas tours more often than not...

 

All this rest, going all out blah blah is not going to  help indian bowling improve at a strategic level.

 

These thorny issues have to be addressed

 

 

 

 

 

The posts here are speculating about imaginary rest or imaginary best of our bowlers while their averages are in the HIGH 30 s!

these are like suggestions from a jawan doing field duty! or anil kapoor dismissing employees on nayak!

 

And how are we  going to improve indian bowling to the point they can take 20 wickets regualrly overseas?

how are we going to find better  talent?

 

 by hiring hacks like binny to bowl 11-15  overs????

 

 

 

 

 

 

 mmm i dont know. Kallis retired. Ok bye.

[MCcricket]

Indian bowlers mature late coz of few reason, not enough support n guidance, culture, domestic cricket but once they do they do very well in 2 half of career like, Sri, Zak and this current batch has made faster progress so if Zak n Srin in their peak can be world beaters so can Shami, Umesh, Aaron atleast we have a pool of fast bowlers now that we never had, onus is now on selectors n captain.

 

Shami is good n can be world class, Umesh has shown glimpses of his ability in tests, especially abroad, so yes this could be a good era for us bowling wise, but need a pro active captain, selectors n administration, we sure have come a long way from Gavaskar opening g the bowling n Prasad, question is these bowlers have it in them to be world class all they need is captain n selectors faith, guidance n support n proper use

Edited July 26, 2016 by MCcricket

[Ankit_sharma03]

 

Its so refreshing to hear his thoughts- "We should be ready now to dominate test match, if u keep thinking about that its only about learning we ll never get the hunger to win".

[youngindia]

 

srinath       in  SA   1997-   28.72
                  in nz    1998     35
                   in aus 1999      46.1
                    in zim  2001    35.14
                    in sa    2001  19.76
                    in WI   2002   42.92
 

zaheer      in Sl 2008      44
               in NZ 2009    30.76
               in ban 2009    19.53
               in SA   2010     24.60
                in Aus 2011    31.80
                 in SA 2013     45.71
                  in NZ             42.44

 

Look at the number of times they have struggled to average under 25...hardly  a record of excellence...

 

Equally it will be staggering to see the many under 25 averages of the top tier bowlers in away series.

 

To be fair zaheer played a good role in NZ and england...

 

srinath didnt distinguish himself by failing on zim and wi tours where it was a golden chance to break the away duck. 

 

His best was the 1997 johannesburg test where SA escaped by rain and cullinan...

again the fact is our best bowler could not dislodge cullinan.

 

In 2010 zaheer could not beat kallis and a first series win in SA went begging

 

As for the others forget it.  

 

Neither our best bowlers have been lethal or consistent  enough ...the support cast has mostly been average to terrible.

E xperienced batsmen from chanderpaul to mccullum have denied us almost single handedly

 

yes 11-15 overs by average bowlers are going to solve our problems just because there is  the 5th bowler who

are supposed to bring 'great benefits'!

 

 

 is these bowlers have it in them to be world class 

 

Best case expectations- 

 

 Shami 29-31   

 umesh 32-33

ishant 33

aaron and bumrah- will wait

 

Infact i dont think any of them are going to match kapil.

 

 

[FischerTal]

Premature thread, but kohli is actually interested in test cricket. With msd, you never got the feeling that he enjoyed playing it. That's why I expect us to be more successful under kohli.

[Number]

Dont agree with the bright sunshine part as it is too early to conclude anything but Dhoni was one of the worst test captains India had. Took Indian test cricket to 30 years back. 

[velu]

Dont agree with the bright sunshine part as it is too early to conclude anything but Dhoni was one of the worst test captains India had. Took Indian test cricket to 30 years back. 

He took our test cricket to 50 years ahead.

Then took us 30 years back..

Net net still dhoni took us ahead

[Lannister]

He is the worst thing to ever happen for Indian Test Cricket. I think from now on every captain should under go an IQ test before he is named as such, especially for Test format. I was always left flabbergasted at his level of stupidity both on and off the field, and on top of that he was cowardly too. I am just glad we finally able to rid of this cancer from the team.  

[Adi_91]

This thread always had the potential to be a lot flashy and deliver very little meaningful discussion.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Adi_91

[velu]

Rename the thread to Wheel chair test analysts

[express bowling]

On 7/26/2016 at 10:24 PM, youngindia said:

   Maybe respect cricketing history and commonsense?  

 

History shows 6 batsmen are the feasible number.

 

if your top 4 is not good enough to take 20 wickets, that certainly  implies you are not a country that can take 20 wickets regularly .

let me end it there.

 

hence rest of the points are moot.

 

Test cricket, as well as cricket in general , has changed so much over the years that  team compositions as well strategies learnt from history do not always provide the best solutions. Modern day test cricket is so much more in favour of batsmen....a  much higher percentage of flat pitches in the last 10 years,  superb protective gears,   amazing quality bats,  2 bouncer rule,  etc.  and these new challenges need new strategies from the bowling unit.

 

With the introduction of  T20 cricket and the IPL,  there is too much cricket going on.  The purpose of the 5th bowler is rarely for him to take wickets when the top 4 have failed....but to give sufficient rest to the top pacers  so that they do not get over-bowled  and hence risk injury.  Even if there is no injury, the pace bowlers end up bowling with less effort if they feel that they have to bowl a huge number of overs. ( Only a top bowling unit, who  had amazing quality pacers, could be confident that they do not have to bowl a lot of overs in general and could afford to go flat out even with 4 bowlers. )

 

There is also the question of who the 6th batsman is going to be  if he plays and does he add significant value to the team.  In the current scenario, Rohit Sharma would be that batsman and most of the times he is a waste of space in the  test team.  

 

The ideal  solution is obviously finding a good  all-rounder or  two at test level.  Till the time that happens, this dilemma is going to remain.  Most top test teams are playing all-rounders like Mitch Marsh, Ben Stokes and Morris, so that 5 bowlers can be played.

Edited July 27, 2016 by express bowling

[SLICKR392]

3 hours ago, velu said:

He took our test cricket to 50 years ahead.

Then took us 30 years back..

Net net still dhoni took us ahead

LOL!