So how long is the rope for Saha?

[Vijy]

3 minutes ago, Texan said:

Batting wise he is nowhere near Dhoni and keeping wise also, Dhoni was better. Dhoni's keeping kept getting better with time.

In SC, his batting is not in the same class as Dhoni. As for keeping, he's had a bad series here, but the previous 2 were good.

[Texan]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 If and when a good test keeper comes,  who is a clearly  better batsman than Saha...he will be replaced.  As of today, we don't have any.

The "we don't have a better option" argument is something I have heard for the umpteenth time. It is not like we don't have good keeper batsmen in domestics. We just have to show some guts to blood them. 

[mancalledsting]

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

For next yr or so he is not going anywere, unless he fails so miserably.

For god sake its just been 2 games n people go crazy be it with him or rahane.(What cricket hae u grown up on that u see people scoring in every game)

Saha has done well in Sl, Sa series, Wi n NZ series

 

Which Sangakara n adam gilchrist are resy in domestic that we are so admant on replacing him. 

All of us here know he aint a long term solution and is no special talent but for present we need him. He is a very good keeper who time n again has played very gutsy knocks. 

 

U cant forget present by talking about future all the time

I think you've misunderstood/simplified the argument:

 

1. Apart from last 6 tests or so, Saha has not impressed with the bat (see batting average after 19 tests)

2. This series, Saha has been poor with gloves and bat- one of the main reasons to persist with his low batting returns was because he supposedly almost guaranteed you a performance behind the stumps

3. Saha is not young and will not give you long term returns-  by the time he gets going, it may be time to end

4. He has shown poor batting temperament on a number of occasions (including this series)- most importantly Adelaide when he could have helped us win

5. Kohli/current management don't have much faith in him- hence Ashwin bats ahead of him

 

Hence if he doesnt give returns by end of this series- questions should rightly be asked

 

 

[Malcolm Merlyn]

Hope not too long.

[Vijy]

14 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

I think you've misunderstood/simplified the argument:

 

1. Apart from last 6 tests or so, Saha has not impressed with the bat (see batting average after 19 tests)

2. This series, Saha has been poor with gloves and bat- one of the main reasons to persist with his low batting returns was because he supposedly almost guaranteed you a performance behind the stumps

3. Saha is not young and will not give you long term returns-  by the time he gets going, it may be time to end

4. He has shown poor batting temperament on a number of occasions (including this series)- most importantly Adelaide when he could have helped us win

5. Kohli/current management don't have much faith in him- hence Ashwin bats ahead of him

 

Hence if he doesnt give returns by end of this series- questions should rightly be asked

 

 

If he fails with bat and gloves for 5 tests in a row, then of course questions need to be asked. But, there are still 3 tests remaining.

[Texan]

38 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

I think you've misunderstood/simplified the argument:

 

1. Apart from last 6 tests or so, Saha has not impressed with the bat (see batting average after 19 tests)

2. This series, Saha has been poor with gloves and bat- one of the main reasons to persist with his low batting returns was because he supposedly almost guaranteed you a performance behind the stumps

3. Saha is not young and will not give you long term returns-  by the time he gets going, it may be time to end

4. He has shown poor batting temperament on a number of occasions (including this series)- most importantly Adelaide when he could have helped us win

5. Kohli/current management don't have much faith in him- hence Ashwin bats ahead of him

 

Hence if he doesnt give returns by end of this series- questions should rightly be asked

 

 

+1. Good post that covers all points. There are still 3 Tests remaining in this series. What we should do at the very least is bring in a reserve keeper in the squad so that Saha knows that he is on notice. Better get his act together or he is out. 

[Vijy]

10 minutes ago, Texan said:

+1. Good post that covers all points. There are still 3 Tests remaining in this series. What we should do at the very least is bring in a reserve keeper in the squad so that Saha knows that he is on notice. Better get his act together or he is out. 

If he's going to play till end of series, no point in having a reserve keeper. Instead, the management can just have a quiet word in person instead.

[Texan]

8 minutes ago, Vijy said:

If he's going to play till end of series, no point in having a reserve keeper. Instead, the management can just have a quiet word in person instead.

If I had my way, he wouldn't be playing the next Test. But if the selectors want to give him this series to prove himself, then they should pick a reserve keeper just to keep him on his toes. 

[Vijy]

18 minutes ago, Texan said:

If I had my way, he wouldn't be playing the next Test. But if the selectors want to give him this series to prove himself, then they should pick a reserve keeper just to keep him on his toes. 

Seems reasonable enough. 5 Tests in a row with both bat and gloves is a sufficiently long rope.

[maniac]

5 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

You are overestimating the batting ability of our keepers over the years in test matches.

 

Apart from Dhoni,  there has not been a single keeper in our history who has averaged more than 35.   Not a single keeper has averaged over 40. ( among keepers who have played 15+ tests )

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
MS Dhoni	2005-2014	90	144	16	4876	224	38.09	6	33	10
BK Kunderan	1960-1967	15	28	3	831	192	33.24	2	3	1
FM Engineer	1961-1975	46	87	3	2611	121	31.08	2	16	7
PA Patel	2002-2008	20	30	7	683	69	29.69	0	4	4
WP Saha	2012-2016	19	28	4	697	104	29.04	1	4	3
SMH Kirmani	1976-1986	88	124	22	2759	102	27.04	2	12	7
KS More	1986-1993	49	64	14	1285	73	25.70	0	7	7
NR Mongia	1994-2001	44	68	8	1442	152	24.03	1	6	6
KD Karthik	2004-2010	16	24	1	491	93	21.34	0	3	2
NS Tamhane	1955-1961	21	27	5	225	54*	10.22	0	1	8

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;keeper=1;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=15;qualval1=matches;spanmin1=01+jan+1870;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

 

 

 

This proves on thing,Stats never give the true picture....Parthiv Patel is no 4 on that list when the fact is that he is the poorest among all the keepers listed there.

 

I know you published the stat to show Saha's batting credentials but here is the thing

 

You pull such stats say with Pakistan as a criteria and you will probably get Kamran AKmal as statistically the best or 2nd best WK-Bat from Pakistan of all time which doesn't tell you half the picture....I mean this is the guy who lost tests singlehandedly with keeping which has never ever happened before.

 

Now coming back to Saha,his batting is mediocre and you can pull such stats to prove he is the better than Mongia,kirmani etc. but what about his primary skill keeping? You think he is a better keeper than Mongia and Kirmani?

 

Now coming to Dhoni he is head and shoulders above Kirmani or mongia or any other WK-Bat we have produced....As a Keeper he is in the same league as Mongia etc while keeping to Spinners may be a shade better thats about it and that is debatable,but keeping to Pace he was pretty mediocre ........but then again you can't compare him to other Indian keepers because they hardly kept to a lot of fast bowlers barring 1or 2.....so that puts Dhoni in a league of his own which everyone accepts.

 

If Saha was as a way way better keeper than Dhoni and Mongia etc,We can accept his average batting without asking any questions...no problem at all but the fact is ,his keeping is not perfect, infact it is pretty mediocre,even though he was good against Nzl...... overall he has shown mediocre glove work....now that mediocre glove work would have been acceptable to some extent if Saha was better or as good as Dhoni with the bat,but he is neither that too.

 

Dhoni,Sangakkara,Mccullum,De Kock can play as batsmen alone for their sides and some of them have done that...Sarfaraz too given how mediocre Pak batting line up is can play as a batsman for them.

 

Now Saha doesn't obviously qualify in the above league which is obvious.

 

But all these players when they played as specialist batsman had back up keepers who where no way in their league as batsman..... but they were excellent specialist keepers.

 

Now I don't think you can call saha an excellent specialist keeper

 

SImple....Keeping is his primary job and his batting is a bonus which needs to compensate for odd failures in his primary role...that would be ok....but Saha is total mediocre in both departments

 

 

Edited November 20, 2016 by maniac

[SUMO]

saha is a decent batsman and keeper...but he is someone who is low in confidence, can't express himself on big stage and gets bog down.
he will be bullied easily by good fast bowlers.
you can hear from the stump mics (irritating voice), he is not encouraging his bowlers enough. 

[gattaca]

What are the replacements ? Give him at least this series. He played well in the last few series. Don't say pant. That guy didn't even play the whole Ranji season yet.

Edited November 21, 2016 by gattaca

[Vijy]

7 minutes ago, gattaca said:

What are the replacements ? Give him at least this series. He played well in the last few series. Don't say pant. That guy didn't even play the whole Ranji season yet.

People are going to say Pant, Samson, Kishan - none of whom have sufficient experience in keeping, or will suggest Karthik and Pappu who are worse keepers.

[fineleg]

IF there is one common agreement on ICF, it is this - no one in ICF suggests KKD or Pappu. I think they are done and dusted universally at ICF.

Edited November 21, 2016 by fineleg

[Laaloo]

I was going to say Naman Ojha but the dude is 34 years old. I say give Saha this series and if he doesnt improve, then just blood someone bloody new.

[rkt.india]

5 hours ago, maniac said:

This proves on thing,Stats never give the true picture....Parthiv Patel is no 4 on that list when the fact is that he is the poorest among all the keepers listed there.

 

I know you published the stat to show Saha's batting credentials but here is the thing

 

You pull such stats say with Pakistan as a criteria and you will probably get Kamran AKmal as statistically the best or 2nd best WK-Bat from Pakistan of all time which doesn't tell you half the picture....I mean this is the guy who lost tests singlehandedly with keeping which has never ever happened before.

 

Now coming back to Saha,his batting is mediocre and you can pull such stats to prove he is the better than Mongia,kirmani etc. but what about his primary skill keeping? You think he is a better keeper than Mongia and Kirmani?

 

Now coming to Dhoni he is head and shoulders above Kirmani or mongia or any other WK-Bat we have produced....As a Keeper he is in the same league as Mongia etc while keeping to Spinners may be a shade better thats about it and that is debatable,but keeping to Pace he was pretty mediocre ........but then again you can't compare him to other Indian keepers because they hardly kept to a lot of fast bowlers barring 1or 2.....so that puts Dhoni in a league of his own which everyone accepts.

 

If Saha was as a way way better keeper than Dhoni and Mongia etc,We can accept his average batting without asking any questions...no problem at all but the fact is ,his keeping is not perfect, infact it is pretty mediocre,even though he was good against Nzl...... overall he has shown mediocre glove work....now that mediocre glove work would have been acceptable to some extent if Saha was better or as good as Dhoni with the bat,but he is neither that too.

 

Dhoni,Sangakkara,Mccullum,De Kock can play as batsmen alone for their sides and some of them have done that...Sarfaraz too given how mediocre Pak batting line up is can play as a batsman for them.

 

Now Saha doesn't obviously qualify in the above league which is obvious.

 

But all these players when they played as specialist batsman had back up keepers who where no way in their league as batsman..... but they were excellent specialist keepers.

 

Now I don't think you can call saha an excellent specialist keeper

 

SImple....Keeping is his primary job and his batting is a bonus which needs to compensate for odd failures in his primary role...that would be ok....but Saha is total mediocre in both departments

 

 

Parthiv was poor in keeping, not in batting. He is still amongst the best as a batsman who can keep.

[Vijy]

10 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Parthiv was poor in keeping, not in batting. He is still amongst the best as a batsman who can keep.

Yes, very poor keeper indeed. But, he's been a consistent FC bat for many seasons as you mentioned.

[diga]

10 hours ago, Texan said:

You are forgetting that historically keepers were not expected to bat. But in today's day and age, all top teams in World cricket have keepers who can bat, some of them like de Kock, Bairstow, Chandimal, Sarfaraz average over 40. A keeper just keeping is just not good enough these days. He must be able to bat. More than just the average, it is Saha's temperament that is questionable. In the final innings of the last Test, when he was supposed to block, he came out all guns blazing and perished immediately. 

Anyone remember the horrible shot he played to be bowled in the first test match against Australia in Adelaide...  Kohli could have done with some support and who knows what could have happened. We lost that by 48 runs and we had 4 more wkts after Saha

 

Edited November 21, 2016 by diga

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, diga said:

Anyone remember the horrible shot he played to be bowled in the first test match against Australia in Adelaide...  Kohli could have done with some support and who knows what could have happened. We lost that by 48 runs and we had 4 more wkts after Saha

 

It's also equally important then to remember the 2nd test vs NZ where the opposite was possible because of him (to an extent).

[diga]

3 minutes ago, Vijy said:

It's also equally important then to remember the 2nd test vs NZ where the opposite was possible because of him (to an extent).

Question is , do we want a hit & miss player or a more consistent one? Do we have replacements in the domestics available? Is age on Saha's side?