The real reason behind "Bowling Paavarhouse" decline

[Muloghonto]

13 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

if cameras are same why dont we see those big reverse swings any more like even in the late 90s ?@muloghonto

Who was getting those humongous reverse swing in the late 90s ? Waqar had the pace to get humongous reverse swing in the early/mid 90s but not after that. Wasim never got humongous reverse swing anyways.

 

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

There are way too many incidents, including the ones you listed and the one in the OP, to lend credence to the theory ball tampering did have an impact on Pak pacers' numbers. Nearly every series there was a report or incident about ball tampering. Wasim, Waqar and company may have been talented but it doesn't mean they didn't cheat or not tamper with the ball. They did benefit from ball tampering and the current decline in Pak's pace bowling fortunes coinciding with the time when crackdown on ball tampering came into effect does paint a damning picture.

Your posts shows that the few times people tried tampering the ball in the 90s, they got caught. In the 93/94 series versus England, there was intense media scrutiny on both of them but they failed to find any ball tampering from them. 

I just cant sees how you can tamper with the ball in the 90s and not get busted by cameras.

 

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, mishra said:

I doubt it was upto Kapil. Swinging the ball is an art to be perfected in nets. A lot of things about swing would have been discovered accidentally while in nets by Pakistani trio bowlers. They would have testet and perfected among themselves.

 

It is only now with advent of HD cameras that we can see what is going on. Infact not till very recently when Imrans spill the beans on  on Sky Sport, that people in International circle knew that to get reverse swing, no licking, ball must be absolutely dry, Just shine using cream.

 

Now one may argue why windies didnt do it. IMO they were gentlemen and probably may have observed it in nets but intentionally didnt do any research

Because except for Malcolm Marshall, none of the west indies bowlers relied on movement too much. Holding was probably the fastest bowler ever in terms of 'stock ball fastness' and he was your standard 'bowl really fast, have really good control and move the ball minimally both ways' kinda guy.

Garner & Ambrose were McGrath-esque bowlers with even more bounce. Garner targeted the body more than Ambrose/McGrath but he isn't going to gain anything from tampering with the ball either.

Colin Croft was an awkward bowler because he bowled off the wrong foot, had a weird run-up( he ran between the umpire and the stumps)  and bowled at your body 90% of the time. So again, no use of swing for him.

Walsh was a slightly inferior version of Ambrose/Garner with a killer inswinger. 

Malcolm Marshall was the only bowler who had everything conventional - the only difference between him and Wasim was Wasim had reverse swing & more stamina, Marshall was a smarter bowler with a better bouncer. But Marshall did most of his damage with the new ball, where i am not sure tampering helps. 

Ian Bishop was a slightly faster version of Walsh (before he broke his back). 
Andy Roberts was your standard fast bowler with not much movement but he always made people overcommit to the backfoot because Andy had two bouncers, one that was your normal, well directed bouncer aimed at your head, the other was a much faster, skiddier bouncer that was aimed at your throat, above shoulder but below head, delivered with the same action. And he skewered many a batsman with that delivery, which always made batsmen hesitate coming on front foot against him.

 

So its a matter of the style of bowling too. Bottomline, West Indies bowlers were mostly bounce & speed bowlers who didnt care for movement. So they gain virtually nothing by altering the ball.

 

[sandeep]

13 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Your posts shows that the few times people tried tampering the ball in the 90s, they got caught. In the 93/94 series versus England, there was intense media scrutiny on both of them but they failed to find any ball tampering from them. 

I just cant sees how you can tamper with the ball in the 90s and not get busted by cameras.

 

Newspaper media scrutiny != 90s having same number of cameras and technology available to monitor player behavior on all parts of the ground.  

 

Harsh to attribute all pak bowling success to tampering and all that, but willful blindness to not acknowledge that they were regular practitioners of modifying the ball beyond what's allowed.  All teams try to push the envelope on this, even today.  Difference is, some teams were more brazen and shameless about it in the past, and now have less scope to continue doing so.  

[maniac]

Shoaib Akthar debuted in the mid-late 90's and he openly admitted to tampering the ball.

[kira]

Since the padosis like to calculate the hypothetical average of mohammad amir to take into account the dropped catches, let's speculate the hypothetical bowling average of pakistani lejunds  if there was no ball tampering in the 80s and 90s?

 

My guess:-

 

Bowling averages

 

Imran Khan - 32.06

 

Waqar younis - 33.45

 

Shoaib Akhtar- 36.67 (Ishant Sharma League )

 

Wasim Akram - 25.07 (One and only true legend)

[mishra]

15 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

..

 

So its a matter of the style of bowling too. Bottomline, West Indies bowlers were mostly bounce & speed bowlers who didnt care for movement. So they gain virtually nothing by altering the ball.

 

If not swing, why players kept those towels on sunscreen lotion or cream on their trouser? Because they knew conditioning of ball meant swin at the same time genuinely thought it wasnt against the spirit of game. Even now, I think Sunscreen cream should be allowed.

 

Now some basics about bowling to make you understand absurdity of your claim. Every bowler has a 1) natural head position 2) grip and 3) finger release mode that judge their natural swing. Change in either or all of above 3 gives him variation. Effect of roughness on one side can be literally observed at speed around 70 mph.

 

So a bowler is hard deck or bouncer or body target you name it, swing is used everywhere and bowlers knew it.

Reason why I think Kapil paaji was better bowler then guys like Imran is that His natural abililty to get a lbw with new ball. Most likely, if we played them in modern era, Kapil and all those Windies would have had no change to their average while most certainly Pakistani trio average will  suffer.

 

 

[Trichromatic]

4 hours ago, kira said:

Since the padosis like to calculate the hypothetical average of mohammad amir to take into account the dropped catches, let's speculate the hypothetical bowling average of pakistani lejunds  if there was no ball tampering in the 80s and 90s?

Shoaib Akhtar- 36.67 (Ishant Sharma League )

Akhtar played mostly in post 2000 era.

[kira]

18 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Akhtar played mostly in post 2000 era.

If there was no ball tampering in the 80s and 90s then akhtar wouldn't have learnt it from his mentors waqar and waz, so his stats would suffer too, even though akhtar played in the 2000s, he still benefitted from ball tampering, he openly admits it.

[Trichromatic]

3 minutes ago, kira said:

If there was no ball tampering in the 80s and 90s then akhtar wouldn't have learnt it from his mentors waqar and waz, so his stats would suffer too, even though akhtar played in the 2000s, he still benefitted from ball tampering, he openly admits it.

And what drastic changes have happened in TV cameras from 2006 to 2010-11 that no one is able to do it now?

[kira]

4 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

And what drastic changes have happened in TV cameras from 2006 to 2010-11 that no one is able to do it now?

Nothing happened in 2006-2010 either, only after big 3 take over ball tampers and chuckers are getting caught and the tailunt in the pados is going down

[Trichromatic]

23 minutes ago, kira said:

Nothing happened in 2006-2010 either, only after big 3 take over ball tampers and chuckers are getting caught and the tailunt in the pados is going down

What has Big 3 done for stopping ball tampering?

[kira]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

What has Big 3 done for stopping ball tampering?

Can't spoon feed you everything, do your own research, connect the dots and come to your own conclusion, I have already explained a lot to you 

[Trichromatic]

46 minutes ago, kira said:

Can't spoon feed you everything, do your own research, connect the dots and come to your own conclusion, I have already explained a lot to you 

Did it. There is nothing to suggest that.

[mishra]

2 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

And what drastic changes have happened in TV cameras from 2006 to 2010-11 that no one is able to do it now?

[BeautifulGame]

On 1/10/2017 at 10:00 AM, MultiB48 said:

if cameras are same why dont we see those big reverse swings any more like even in the late 90s ?@muloghonto

One major reason is that most grounds have improved and outfields have become lush green.

 

Check Shami's debut series against West Indies if you think big reverse swing didnt occur in recent times. 

[Trichromatic]

13 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

One major reason is that most grounds have improved and outfields have become lush green.

 

Check Shami's debut series against West Indies if you think big reverse swing didnt occur in recent times. 

Yeah, time and again bowlers have showed that it is possible to  get reverse swing without causing appreciable damage  to  the ball.

[Ultimate_Game]

Wasn't Pakistan penalized 5 runs for ball tampering in mid 2000s in England and ended up conceding the match? And wasn't Afridi caught pitch tampering and changing the condition of the ball by "smelling" with his teeth? That's how things have finally come under control, i.e. match officials aren't turning a blind eye to cheating & ball tampering anymore.

[rtmohanlal]

21 minutes ago, kira said:

bottle topper khan has single handedly destroyed pak cricket, firstly he brainwashed whole of pakistan into believing that they are the most talented players to ever grace this game and there is unlimited tailunt hiding on the streets of pakistan , so every time pak gets embarrassed these days they keep harping the same tailunt rant taught to them by bottle topper khan instead of finding proper solution.

 

Afridi is also a product of bottle topper khan's thinking, due his once in a blue moon innings the pak people made him into a national hero and the whole next generation of cricketers tried to emulate his tailunt and thus failed miserably on the international scene, but since afridi had tailunt he kept playing for 2 decades LMAO 

 

Bottle topper khan also destroyed pak's bowling, because he taught them the cheap way of getting wickets by cheating and since the crack down on ball tampering by ICC, pak can't even produce a trundler to match the Indian trundlers 

 

Bottle topper khan also misguided his nation by overhyping mediocre tailunts like Inzamam "better than tendulkar" haq and mohammad "the next wasim akram" amir 

 

Despite fooling his nation for over 4 decades, he still continues to fool them and comes back with the same ghisi piti repeated speech about tailunt every time pak loses and since Pakistani fans are not the brightest people on earth they still continue to follow him and take his words as gospel of truth.

 

Imran khan is the most self centric attention seeking guy I have ever seen, he still to this day continues to take credit for the success of wasim and waqar. That fluke world cup win in 1992 hurt pak more than anything.

ha...ha..ha ... well said mate... i was just about to write  the statement about his routine  boasting of  how he picked up  the Ws and made them  ATGs before i  read your last para.As you said he seems one of the most self centered person who keeps on harping about his unlimted

contribution to PAK cricket .He thinks the outer world is full of fools to  be unaware of his noble methods to boost his records.And hope the mediocrity w.r.t PAK bowling goes on unlimited. Then only this nation will realise the depth of effect of this man's ill doings on their cricket as a whole.  

Edited January 21, 2017 by rtmohanlal
grammer mistake

[Tibarn]

They don't eat enough Sabjiyaan, don't develop enough brains.