Never look at first class stats if you want world class pacers

[King Tendulkar]

Nothing worse when people say he was top wicket taker in ranji or up there so he deserves a chance . Aaaaah

 

yes spinners taking loads of wickets and batamsan scoring lots of runs and topping charts useful tool. However , I would go as far to say then any seamer who tops ranji wicket taking stats has proved he is not suitable for international cricket and is a work horse . You need thorough breds

 

As this volume of wickets in ranji means can turn up every other day . Play game after game . Bowl loads and loads of overs and keep going . Commendable stuff . But that type of bowler must be a trundler to achieve this . If a guy was 90 mph and did this in ranji by end of season would be 78 mph . 

 

Pankaj singh / Vinnay kumar classic examples. Run in all day every day and top ranji stuff . Will they trouble warner ? Hell no

 

think this? Did rabada top sa fc wickets charts ? No 

[King Tendulkar]

You will need to use your cricket eye . Grab them while young . Get them in india a tours etc etc and hope to harness their pace and ability to groom them in to world class fast bowlers 

 

thats what other countries do , why don't we 

[Tibarn]

Agree with OP mostly, 

 

Exhibit 1: Vinay Kumar

Bowling averages

	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	4w	5w	10
Tests	1	1	78	73	1	1/73	1/73	73.00	5.61	78.0	0	0	0
ODIs	31	31	1436	1423	38	4/30	4/30	37.44	5.94	37.7	1	0	0
T20Is	9	9	189	247	10	3/24	3/24	24.70	7.84	18.9	0	0	0
First-class	115		20615	9836	418	8/32		23.53	2.86	49.3	16	20	4

 

FC stats make Vinay look like Dale Steyn  

 

However, I remember Pankaj being pacier when Rajastan was good. By the time we tried him in the team, it looked like he dropped some pace. In particular, If he can get his pace up some, he can be tried again in a test match on helpful surfaces. He's tall as well, so his bounce/swing + Bhuvi's swing on green tops could be useful. 

[Sooda]

The truth needs to be somewhere between 'potential' and good domestic cricket record. This is where the selectors eye needs to come in and ensure that bowlers picked are good enough, at the same time though a successful Ranji trophy season is almost necessary - a) it shows these guys can take wickets, if they cant get domestic batsmen out what chance at international level especially in home series and b) Consistently Good domestic performances have to be rewarded, if at least with a spot on an A team it gives young bowlers incetnive to bowl well for their state and older ones incentive to improve c) Naturally having at least 2 FC seasons woild help bowlers harness their potential and develop skills and theyre not learning at test cricket level. I think Ishant would have been a better bowler had he been picked after gaining more experience at FC level

 

Vinay Kumar deserved the chance to show what he can do for India, for being such a  good performer for his state (though perhaps we knew by the time he was sent to Australia and that was a match too far). If we had a good and structured A team system he would have played a few times for them first. He is a Karnataka legend but Sadly he wasnt good enough for India so we move on and not keep choosing him for A teams. Same with Dinda

 

Its a bit extreme to say that bowlers who have done well in Ranji are not suited. Yes to an extent the workhorses are more suited to consistently topping the stats but again without diggin further into how many overs theyve bowled and pace they bowl at you cant make a blanket judgement. From all accounts Mohammed Siraj likes to bowl fast, he shuld have been given an A team oppo follwing a good domestic season...on the other hand People here keep harping about Nathu Singh and Aniket Chaudhry , they maybe be nippy and show promise but they still have to be able to take wickets for Rajastahn and if Pankaj their team mate can do it better he deserves a spot in an A team ahead of them. Hopefully good List A tourneys can get them noticed.

 

Pankaj has been good for years but when they won the Ranji trophy upped his pace under the guidance of a South African bowling coach Meryck Pringle. I dont know if he is still quick enough by international standards, but he certainly did not get a fair chance for India when picked and deserves another A team oppo at least.

 

re: Rabada, he is awesome and exceptions can be made in the light of exceptional talents...and anyway-

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/southafrica/content/player/550215.html

 

In early 2015, Rabada showed his ability in the longer format. He claimed the South African record for the best bowling figures in a first-class match, 14 for 105, surpassing the haul taken by Dale Steyn seven seasons before. He finished the season as the third-highest wicket-taker in the Sunfoil Series. 

Edited January 18, 2017 by Sooda

[Ankit_sharma03]

@SecondSlip

 

[Cricketics]

If someone is picking wickets, loads of wickets but do not have enough pace, then they can be tried at the A level, like Sooda mentioned.

 

You never know what might work where. Even Praveen Kumar helped us win the tri series in Australia by doing well in the finals there and he also bowled well in England. We can not just ignore those guys who lack pace.

 

Remember James Faulkner was the man of the match for his bowling in the world cup final. Just when it looked like that New Zealand might take the score to 250+, he struck both set players Ellioitt and Ross Taylor and put Australia back after bowling one of the besf spells in the tournament, all through varitions and not much pace.

 

 

We need to back fast bowlers but Ranji performers need to be given chance too even if they lack pace. Give them proper chance like playing them in A sides or using them in ODI's instead of throwing them in a test match.

 

 

 

 

[tweaker]

This selectors have been worse & they have not shown any foresight. They could have choose young pacers agaist England in the practice games,but instead they choose Vinay,Dinda,Mohit .

[rkt.india]

Prime example Josh Hazelwood who had one fifer after 30 FC games when debuted for Australia averaging 30.

[rkt.india]

5 hours ago, Sooda said:

The truth needs to be somewhere between 'potential' and good domestic cricket record. This is where the selectors eye needs to come in and ensure that bowlers picked are good enough, at the same time though a successful Ranji trophy season is almost necessary - a) it shows these guys can take wickets, if they cant get domestic batsmen out what chance at international level especially in home series and b) Consistently Good domestic performances have to be rewarded, if at least with a spot on an A team it gives young bowlers incetnive to bowl well for their state and older ones incentive to improve c) Naturally having at least 2 FC seasons woild help bowlers harness their potential and develop skills and theyre not learning at test cricket level. I think Ishant would have been a better bowler had he been picked after gaining more experience at FC level

 

Vinay Kumar deserved the chance to show what he can do for India, for being such a  good performer for his state (though perhaps we knew by the time he was sent to Australia and that was a match too far). If we had a good and structured A team system he would have played a few times for them first. He is a Karnataka legend but Sadly he wasnt good enough for India so we move on and not keep choosing him for A teams. Same with Dinda

 

Its a bit extreme to say that bowlers who have done well in Ranji are not suited. Yes to an extent the workhorses are more suited to consistently topping the stats but again without diggin further into how many overs theyve bowled and pace they bowl at you cant make a blanket judgement. From all accounts Mohammed Siraj likes to bowl fast, he shuld have been given an A team oppo follwing a good domestic season...on the other hand People here keep harping about Nathu Singh and Aniket Chaudhry , they maybe be nippy and show promise but they still have to be able to take wickets for Rajastahn and if Pankaj their team mate can do it better he deserves a spot in an A team ahead of them. Hopefully good List A tourneys can get them noticed.

 

Pankaj has been good for years but when they won the Ranji trophy upped his pace under the guidance of a South African bowling coach Meryck Pringle. I dont know if he is still quick enough by international standards, but he certainly did not get a fair chance for India when picked and deserves another A team oppo at least.

 

re: Rabada, he is awesome and exceptions can be made in the light of exceptional talents...and anyway-

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/southafrica/content/player/550215.html

 

In early 2015, Rabada showed his ability in the longer format. He claimed the South African record for the best bowling figures in a first-class match, 14 for 105, surpassing the haul taken by Dale Steyn seven seasons before. He finished the season as the third-highest wicket-taker in the Sunfoil Series. 

Thing is Pankaj is already 32. It's that age where people start talking about retirement of a fast bowler. So, there is no use wasting time on him and play A grade matches. Regarding Aniket, he might not have been the top wicket taker, but you don't have to be a top wicket taker in FC to do well at international level if you have right ingredients. I already gave an example of Josh Hazelwood above in this thread.

Edited January 19, 2017 by rkt.india

[rkt.india]

4 hours ago, Cricketics said:

If someone is picking wickets, loads of wickets but do not have enough pace, then they can be tried at the A level, like Sooda mentioned.

 

You never know what might work where. Even Praveen Kumar helped us win the tri series in Australia by doing well in the finals there and he also bowled well in England. We can not just ignore those guys who lack pace.

 

Remember James Faulkner was the man of the match for his bowling in the world cup final. Just when it looked like that New Zealand might take the score to 250+, he struck both set players Ellioitt and Ross Taylor and put Australia back after bowling one of the besf spells in the tournament, all through varitions and not much pace.

 

 

We need to back fast bowlers but Ranji performers need to be given chance too even if they lack pace. Give them proper chance like playing them in A sides or using them in ODI's instead of throwing them in a test match.

 

 

 

 

Praveen Kumar averages close to 70 in ODIs played in India. He was good in helpful conditions. 

[renjith]

If domestic stats does not reflect the true ability of a player, our domestic system needs to change rather than selection policies. If selectors completely ignore domestic stats what is the purpose of performing in a domestic game?

Agree with @sooda. Criteria should be somewhere between potential and first class stats.

Edited January 19, 2017 by renjith

[Mosher]

6 hours ago, Tibarn said:

Agree with OP mostly, 

 

Exhibit 1: Vinay Kumar

Bowling averages

	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	4w	5w	10
Tests	1	1	78	73	1	1/73	1/73	73.00	5.61	78.0	0	0	0
ODIs	31	31	1436	1423	38	4/30	4/30	37.44	5.94	37.7	1	0	0
T20Is	9	9	189	247	10	3/24	3/24	24.70	7.84	18.9	0	0	0
First-class	115		20615	9836	418	8/32		23.53	2.86	49.3	16	20	4

 

FC stats make Vinay look like Dale Steyn  

 

However, I remember Pankaj being pacier when Rajastan was good. By the time we tried him in the team, it looked like he dropped some pace. In particular, If he can get his pace up some, he can be tried again in a test match on helpful surfaces. He's tall as well, so his bounce/swing + Bhuvi's swing on green tops could be useful. 

Love your avatar. That's a rare pepe. Praise Kek.

[express bowling]

Srinath , Zaheer and Shami  had good FC stats before playing for India.  

 

There is no need to pick pacers with the best FC stats .....you will get pacers like Vinay, Joginder Sharma, Rishi Dhawan etc..... 

 

But good FC stats does not mean bad pacers.

 

I personally like to go for pacers who combine  pace. bounce with  decent FC stats.  It need not be a hard and fast rule though and any pacer who looks really good for international level needs to be fast tracked too before FC performance.  

[Trichromatic]

Pacers averaging over 30 in FC cricket will never be good for you in international cricket. 

 

Almost all good pacers have good/very good domestic records.

 

Kapil - 25 in domestic cricket

 

Srinath - 23-24 in domestic

 

Zaheer - 23 

 

Pathan - 26

 

Shami - 27

 

Ishant - 22

 

and these are our best pacers in history.

 

 

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, MultiB48 said:

played many in sl and did well there.

yes in that low scoring series where there was a lot of help for seamers.

[rkt.india]

53 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Pacers averaging over 30 in FC cricket will never be good for you in international cricket. 

 

Almost all good pacers have good/very good domestic records.

 

Kapil - 25 in domestic cricket

 

Srinath - 23-24 in domestic

 

Zaheer - 23 

 

Pathan - 26

 

Shami - 27

 

Ishant - 22

 

and these are our best pacers in history.

 

 

Even BK, Umesh had averaged 26 in FC when debuted.

[rkt.india]

8 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

played 4 different series ,pretty good every time

year 2008		3	3	24.0	2	121	5	3/34	24.20	5.04	28.8	0	0
year 2009		3	3	24.2	1	101	5	2/38	20.20	4.15	29.2	0	0
year 2010		5	5	42.0	6	195	5	2/20	39.00	4.64	50.4	0	0

 

Played 3 series there. Sometimes, stats can be so misleading like they were in case of Umesh in England test series as he bowled so well but stats did not show that. Same way is the case for PK. i will give you the links.

 

see this game from 2008 series. low scoring game. Dmabulla had good conditions for seamers. He did well.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/343733.html

 

now look at this. This too was not a high scoring game. PK still went for over 6 an over, picked 2 wickets.

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/343734.html

 

Another game from the same series. not a very high scoring game. He could not even complete his quota. Went over 6 an over.

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/366341.html

 

Now 2010 series where all matches were played at Dambulla.

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30732.html?class=2;home_or_away=2;host=8;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings;year=2010

 

Also SL conditions can be very different than Indian conditions.

 

 

[rkt.india]

4 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

he had his shortcoming but tell me is there anyone who bowls well when there is no help at all.

It is not just about bowling well but wicket taking ability which he lacked. A lot of bowlers take wicket even when there is less help. It is not like he did not bowl well. He was not a bad bowler, but he just did not have the tools to pick wickets. 

[King Tendulkar]

I was not talking so much about bowling averages , strike rates etc 

 

more total wickets taking . Thus if a seamer tops wicket charts . It does not show at all that suited for international cricket . As all it shows is that a great work horse, that can play every 4 days , bowl long long spells and keep going . All very admirable but no indication at all that can do it with the elite .  In fact proves just an honest work horse that won't be able to do it in one off elite matches v the best 

[King Tendulkar]

Someone list the top 10 wicket taking seamers in this years ranji . Guarantee not one has pace and is suited to international cricket .