When You Are Arrogant, You Pay The Price

[Laaloo]

16 minutes ago, Lord said:

Agree.Gopal for some reason isnt backed at any level

He plays for Mumbai Indians right?

[Lord]

1 minute ago, laaloo said:

He plays for Mumbai Indians right?

Sits on the bench for them

[Laaloo]

2 minutes ago, Lord said:

Sits on the bench for them

Well yeah that's what every young player does for Mumbai Indians ;)

[asterix]

Not matter how many Batsmen you play if you don't have technique or will to perform, it's difficult to compete on these wickets.

[The Outsider]

10 hours ago, philcric said:

Somehow many here don't seem to grasp the simple concept of a poor performance. It's always the pitch, the toss, the umpires, the team selection, the batting order etc.

 

As you said the 6th batsman wouldn't have made any difference here. May be even a 7th batsman wouldn't. It was such a spectacular collapse in the first innings, it happened so fast that personnel hardly mattered, it would have happened anyway.

 

I have to agree with this. Because at 4 down in '01 in Calcutta had Ashwin walked out instead of Dravid, we would have still won the test match.

 

Or at Adelaide in '04, had Ashwin walked out instead of Laxman we would have still won. Anyhow their batting styles are similar- Ashwin and Laxman.

[SecondSlip]

Time to go back to the 6 batsmen method again. We used this method against NZ and whitewashed them 3-0, no reason why we can't defeat Australia as well with it. 

Sorry but 5 batsmen which include 2 inconsistent openers + unreliable Saha is not going to work against teams with good bowling. It worked against England because neither Rashid or Moeen are good enough as spinners, so we didn't get troubled by it. But it won't work against every team and we have found that out the hard way. 

Nair has to replace Jayant at Bangalore. Our spin duo of Ashwin and Jadeja are good enough to take out this inexperienced Aussie team. 

 

[Muloghonto]

15 hours ago, Malcolm Merlyn said:

 

The team was arrogant to think they can do with 5 batsman.Something even the fab 5 didnt dare to think.

I think the only legitimate justification of the 5 bowler strategy in India,is that we need it in overseas conditions and at the same time, it'd be very irresponsible to suddenly go from 6 to 5 batsmen overseas and expect the batting order to cope. Instead, by introducing it at home, where we are more comfortable, we can both expose players for the 5th bowler slot and not put undue pressure on the batting lineup.

 

But in reality, this is not going to work unless you have atleast 4 batsmen who are ATG/worldclass category. Currently, our batting lineup is way overrated. Only Kohli is a proven world class player and Murali Vijay is a consistent but just above average batsman who doesnt have obvious overseas or home weakness. Our #2 opener is way hit or miss, Pujara is a God at home and a passenger overseas, Rahane is exactly the opposite.

So this strategy, IMO, will not work unless we find atleast 2-3 batsman who can constantly average 50+ in both home and away conditions. 

For eg, if we were to compare this batting lineup with the one 10 years ago, only Murali Vijay (2nd opener) and Kohli can break into the old team. But from the old team, we have Sehwag, VVS, Dravid and Tendulkar who would walk into just about any team currently (or in the past) and even Ganguly would be a 'Pujara-esque' option at home. 

[Zero_Unit]

Still waiting for a Kallis to appear from the huge population we have. Would have solved that extra bowler/batsmen issue.

[express bowling]

9 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

I think the only legitimate justification of the 5 bowler strategy in India,is that we need it in overseas conditions and at the same time, it'd be very irresponsible to suddenly go from 6 to 5 batsmen overseas and expect the batting order to cope. Instead, by introducing it at home, where we are more comfortable, we can both expose players for the 5th bowler slot and not put undue pressure on the batting lineup.

 

But in reality, this is not going to work unless you have atleast 4 batsmen who are ATG/worldclass category. Currently, our batting lineup is way overrated. Only Kohli is a proven world class player and Murali Vijay is a consistent but just above average batsman who doesnt have obvious overseas or home weakness. Our #2 opener is way hit or miss, Pujara is a God at home and a passenger overseas, Rahane is exactly the opposite.

So this strategy, IMO, will not work unless we find atleast 2-3 batsman who can constantly average 50+ in both home and away conditions. 

For eg, if we were to compare this batting lineup with the one 10 years ago, only Murali Vijay (2nd opener) and Kohli can break into the old team. But from the old team, we have Sehwag, VVS, Dravid and Tendulkar who would walk into just about any team currently (or in the past) and even Ganguly would be a 'Pujara-esque' option at home. 

 

The problem that this lineup faces is that none of the batsmen are willing to be even part-time bowlers.  In the team 12 years ago, we had Ganguly and Sehwag who could pass off as the 5th bowler away and home respectively, if needed.  

 

This needs to change for the balance of the team.  Proper batsmen with bowling potential must practice bowling a lot and be made part of this team, especially on bower-friendly tracks.

 

Karun Nair is a decent enough spinner and needs to practice his bowling. That way, he can be a proper 6th batsman and support 5th bowler in Asia.

 

Similarly, Vijay Shankar is a proper batsman with around 50 FC average and proper technique. He is a decent seamer too.  He needs to be played out of Asia as a proper 6th  batsman and the support 5th bowler.

 

This may solve team composition issues on bowling tracks where the extra batsman is needed.

Edited February 26, 2017 by express bowling

[sensible-indian]

18 hours ago, moniker said:

For all the talk of Jayant being innocuous, he did average 73 with the bat and 29 with the ball in the series against England. Ashwin averaged 43 with the bat and 30 with the ball. You can't argue against those numbers.

 

I don't agree with taking away the 100. Yes he did score a good century against England, why take that away? That's not how averages work. You can't consider that an outlier until the sample size is bigger.

 

Jadeja was considered a bits and pieces cricketer too. Hasn't he kept taking wickets and settled in the team as a bowler? Heck, even Steve Smith was considered a bits and pieces cricketer.

 

About Jayant batting at 9, the logic in the team seems to be that if you aren't a specialist batsman, the established all rounders in the team bat ahead of you. That's why Ashwin bats ahead of Saha. I would prefer Jayant being ahead of Ashwin and Jadeja though, as he is a batting all rounder.

 

The triple centurion and the supposedly best player of spin should be in the team, yes, but shouldn't that be in place of a specialist batsman who isn't a good player of spin (Rahane)? Why should he replace an all rounder who had been doing well till recently and had a bad test like everyone else in the team?

Yes we can argue with those numbers cos stats need to be interpreted too.

 

Its not just averages that matter. Its about how many wickets you take too. Bowling a few overs and taking a few wickets is way different from bowling for long spells and taking tons of wickets like Ashwin and Jaddu do.

 

Also Jayant missed out on playing on both the pattas of the England series (Rajkot and Chennai). Take that out and someone like Ashwin averages 17 with the ball. Jaddu next highest wicket taker at 29. Then Jayant averaging 29.

 

Now I am not saying Jayant should be dropped. I think he was the BEST lower order batsman from either side in that series. The problem is that he is unable to control the run flow in bounce pitches (struggled in Mumbai turner and now in Pune turner) but he did average like 17 odd in Vizag and Mohali which were slow and low turners.

 

I think we should try him at number 6 or 7 and see. We may go with 6 bats for the next game due to fear factor but Jayant has some batting potential which needs to be tested. Number 9 is way too low for him.

 

Interestingly in the Pune pitch, he wasn't dismissed properly even once. He was irresponsible in not dragging his foot in the first innings after playing a defensive shot and in the 2nd innings, he was not out but had to go (thanks to some wonderful use of DRS by our openers).

Edited February 26, 2017 by sensible-indian

[express bowling]

17 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

 

Now I am not saying Jayant should be dropped. I think he was the BEST lower order batsman from either side in that series. The problem is that he is unable to control the run flow in bounce pitches (struggled in Mumbai turner and now in Pune turner) but he did average like 17 odd in Vizag and Mohali which were slow and low turners.

 

I think we should try him at number 6 or 7 and see. We may go with 6 bats for the next game due to fear factor but Jayant has some batting potential which needs to be tested. Number 9 is way too low for him.

 

Interestingly in the Pune pitch, he wasn't dismissed properly even once. He was irresponsible in not dragging his foot in the first innings after playing a defensive shot and in the 2nd innings, he was not out but had to go (thanks to some wonderful use of DRS by our openers).

 

Jayant has to bat at either No.6 or no.7.  He definitely has batting potential and is being wasted at No.9.  Looks comfortable both against pace as well as spin. Goes to the line of the ball to play, watches the ball carefully and has that extra bit of time.

 

It is also important not to overburden Ashwin with batting responsibility at No.6.   He is our best bowler and should be allowed to concentrate fully on his bowling and allowed to bat at No.7. with a free mind.

 

But, I feel that it is better to play Nair on a turning track and Jayant on a flat track, where the extra spinner maybe needed as much more overs need to be bowled.

[sensible-indian]

10 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Jayant has to bat at either No.6 or no.7.  He definitely has batting potential and is being wasted at No.9.  Looks comfortable both against pace as well as spin. Goes to the line of the ball to play, watches the ball carefully and has that extra bit of time.

 

It is also important not to overburden Ashwin with batting responsibility at No.6.   He is our best bowler and should be allowed to concentrate fully on his bowling and allowed to bat at No.7. with a free mind.

 

But, I feel that it is better to play Nair on a turning track and Jayant on a flat track, where the extra spinner maybe needed as much more overs need to be bowled.

I remember your views on Jayant after his very first international innings. You said he looked like a proper bat while his bowling wasn't all that.

 

After that first innings, he has gone from strength to strength with the bat.

 

Also what was amazing about him was that when he got dismissed in the first innings, he was covering the line and allowing the big turning ball to beat his bat. Playing exactly how one is supposed to play in that pitch.

 

Do you think he has it in him to be an international number 6 bat who can convert his 50s into 100s? It would be so awesome if he can.

 

As for Nair, do you think he can make it in the international arena? Yes, he scored 300 in Chennai (after a bunch of failures) but he played a couple of domestic games after that and failed. Doesn't seem consistent to me but I have watched very little of him to be fair.

[express bowling]

24 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

I remember your views on Jayant after his very first international innings. You said he looked like a proper bat while his bowling wasn't all that.

 

After that first innings, he has gone from strength to strength with the bat.

 

Also what was amazing about him was that when he got dismissed in the first innings, he was covering the line and allowing the big turning ball to beat his bat. Playing exactly how one is supposed to play in that pitch.

 

Do you think he has it in him to be an international number 6 bat who can convert his 50s into 100s? It would be so awesome if he can.

 

As for Nair, do you think he can make it in the international arena? Yes, he scored 300 in Chennai (after a bunch of failures) but he played a couple of domestic games after that and failed. Doesn't seem consistent to me but I have watched very little of him to be fair.

 

I really feel that Jayant can be a proper No.6 batsman if he wants to and practices hard.   Apart from the technical aspects that you pointed out and I also chipped in.... he is so dejected every time he is dismissed in a test match and tries hard not to throw his wicket away.  Puts a huge price on his wicket and that is the mentality of a proper test  batsman  (  sort of an area where KL Rahul disappoints  )

 

Regarding Nair, I have not watched him a lot apart from test matches. Just saw 2 other domestic games. One thing that struck me as a tad unusual was that.... he does not seem to have a specific trigger movement while facing seamers. Sometimes he goes very slightly back-and-across, sometimes a bit front-and-across, sometimes no movement at all.  I wonder whether it is creating some confusion regarding where his off-stump is or even gauging the lengths of deliveries exactly.  I maybe wrong on this issue as I have not watched him that much.

 

Apart from that, he looks good, especially against spin.  We have to watch him on bouncy or seaming tracks to form a complete opinion.

 

I was impressed with his ability to play strokes without taking any extra risk, his ability to place the ball and to use power as and when required.

 

What do you think about him  ?

Edited February 26, 2017 by express bowling

[sensible-indian]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

I really feel that Jayant can be a proper No.6 batsman if he wants to and practices hard.   Apart from the technical aspects that you pointed out and I also chipped in.... he is so dejected every time he is dismissed in a test match and tries hard not to throw his wicket away.  Puts a huge price on his wicket and that is the mentality of a proper test  batsman  (  sort of an area where KL Rahul disappoints  )

 

Regarding Nair, I have not watched him a lot apart from test matches. Just saw 2 other domestic games. One thing that struck me as a tad unusual was that.... he does not seem to have a specific trigger movement while facing seamers. Sometimes he goes very slightly back-and-across, sometimes a bit front-and-across, sometimes no movement at all.  I wonder whether it is creating some confusion regarding where his off-stump is or even gauging the lengths of deliveries exactly.  I maybe wrong on this issue as I have not watched him that much.

 

Apart from that, he looks good, especially against spin.  We have to watch him on bouncy or seaming tracks to form a complete opinion.

 

I was impressed with his ability to play strokes without taking any extra risk, his ability to place the ball and to use power as and when required.

 

What do you think about him  ?

I am not knowledgeable reg the mechanics of batting (as in trigger movement) so I won't be able comment on those areas.

 

Also its very hard to judge someone playing in that Chennai patta cos there was so little help for the bowlers.

 

However one thing that really stood out was the way he adapted his batting as his innings progressed. He scored 300 runs at nearly 80 SR. If someone sees the scorecard, it would look like he carted all the bowlers around from ball 1 (a la Sehwag). But what happened was he started his innings just like everyone else but as he scored more, his SR started increasing rapidly. Towards the end, he simply torched the bowlers. His first 100 came at 55 SR. Next 100 came at 79 SR. Last 100 came at 130 SR.

 

One of the posters who watches domestic cricket closely told me he had an amazing ability to adapt his batting according to situation which is exactly what he showed in Chennai.

 

Needs to play in other pitches for us to know where he really stands.

Edited February 26, 2017 by sensible-indian

[moniker]

Yes we can argue with those numbers cos stats need to be interpreted too.

 

Its not just averages that matter. Its about how many wickets you take too. Bowling a few overs and taking a few wickets is way different from bowling for long spells and taking tons of wickets like Ashwin and Jaddu do.

 

Also Jayant missed out on playing on both the pattas of the England series (Rajkot and Chennai). Take that out and someone like Ashwin averages 17 with the ball. Jaddu next highest wicket taker at 29. Then Jayant averaging 29.

 

By those numbers I didn't mean to say Jayant bowled better than Ashwin. I was trying to make a case for Jayant the batting all rounder. Those good bowling stats are just a bonus, quite good for a 5th bowler. His main role as a 5th bowler is to give rest to the strike bowlers and pick up the odd wicket.

 

He should be batting at 6 or 7. I can understand the team management choosing to have the already established all rounders in the team bat ahead of the newcomer, but that is spoiling the balance of the team.

 

 

[sensible-indian]

30 minutes ago, moniker said:

 

By those numbers I didn't mean to say Jayant bowled better than Ashwin. I was trying to make a case for Jayant the batting all rounder. Those good bowling stats are just a bonus, quite good for a 5th bowler. His main role as a 5th bowler is to give rest to the strike bowlers and pick up the odd wicket.

 

He should be batting at 6 or 7. I can understand the team management choosing to have the already established all rounders in the team bat ahead of the newcomer, but that is spoiling the balance of the team.

 

 

I know you didn't mean to compare. I was trying to point out that there are issues with his bowling irrespective of those stats.

 

We both are in the same page reg him but he has to prove himself to be a proper number 6 to be in the team. Has to do better than this Ashwin style batting of getting good looking 30s and 50s. 

 

He does show glimpses of potential but I guess he wont get chances up the order for now which is sad. 

Edited February 26, 2017 by sensible-indian

[Doctored Wicket]

Why arrogance?

India were clearly outplayed.

[Lannister]

I don't see how is that equate to arrogance. They obviously made a blunder when reading the pitch. You don't need 5 bowlers on turners. Even with 5 bowlers we didn't pick up their 20 wickets. Ummie, Ashwin, Kuldeep and jadeja should've been the bowlers with Nair as a 6th batsman. 

[Vilander]

The good thing is there is only one way from 100 runs in both innings..That's up. Lol can't get worse or can it..damn

[King Tendulkar]

On 27/02/2017 at 4:08 AM, Lannister said:

I don't see how is that equate to arrogance. They obviously made a blunder when reading the pitch. You don't need 5 bowlers on turners. Even with 5 bowlers we didn't pick up their 20 wickets. Ummie, Ashwin, Kuldeep and jadeja should've been the bowlers with Nair as a 6th batsman. 

Agree don't need 5 bowlers on crazy turners like this . But when have we played on a crazy turner like this one ?

 

look at eng series and nz series . Now big turners . Had to work hard for 20 wickets and 5 bowlers was needed 

 

I expect pitches to go back to nz/ England series pitches . In that case 5 Bowlers is fine and proven to work hence us being number 1 .