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Pakistan fast bowling factory

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19 hours ago, Asim said:

this guy is younger brother of Riaz Afridi but definitely luks better prospect...

Just got 8for in First Class debut inng; Best ever Pak FC debut stats...

+ a good hitter ;)

 

 

 

do you know which brand of ball is used in your domestic cricket?

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20 hours ago, Vijy said:

read quite a few articles when he took that haul. one should be careful of one-off performances.

 

The most notorious for me was this trundler from India called Deepak Chahar (took 12 wkts on debut including 8-10) at the age of 18. Some hailed him as the upcoming god of Swing but he turned out to be a completely useless bowler

he has not been useless at all. He was bowling 120-125 KPH at that and he decided that he want to be a fast bowler and worked on his pace and now bowls at 135-140KPH. Swing along is not going to make a fast bowler last long.

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2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

he has not been useless at all. He was bowling 120-125 KPH at that and he decided that he want to be a fast bowler and worked on his pace and now bowls at 135-140KPH. 

 

Deepak Chahar was mostly bowling 127 k to 137 k in the last IPL.

 

Looked a bit innocuous.

 

Would bowl slower in the longer formats.

 

 

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4 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

do you know which brand of ball is used in your domestic cricket?

They use a local desi-made balls called "Grays".   Fall apart in 20-25 overs, given the abrasive ground conditions.  Its the main reason why most Pakistani "pacers" have insanely good FC statistics - averages in low 20s etc.   Their "mastery" of a ball in bad condition is achieved over years of practice at the domestic level.  But also ends up cultivating a dependency on ball condition that is erm, difficult to replicate, at the international level - what with cameras and all.  Hence the temptation for their players to bite the ball. or the Pitch.  

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On 10/1/2017 at 11:43 PM, Vijy said:

 

The most notorious for me was this trundler from India called Deepak Chahar (took 12 wkts on debut including 8-10) at the age of 18. Some hailed him as the upcoming god of Swing but he turned out to be a completely useless bowler

This is an exaggeration as rkt has mentioned chahar has tried to improve, not everyone is cutout for international cricket.  His efforts to add pace must be recognized 

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2 hours ago, sandeep said:

They use a local desi-made balls called "Grays".   Fall apart in 20-25 overs, given the abrasive ground conditions.  Its the main reason why most Pakistani "pacers" have insanely good FC statistics - averages in low 20s etc.   Their "mastery" of a ball in bad condition is achieved over years of practice at the domestic level.  But also ends up cultivating a dependency on ball condition that is erm, difficult to replicate, at the international level - what with cameras and all.  Hence the temptation for their players to bite the ball. or the Pitch.  

are they also hard like typical desi balls,may be it also helps their young quicks to hit the bat hard on slow pitches.

Edited by MultiB48

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10 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Deepak Chahar was mostly bowling 127 k to 137 k in the last IPL.

 

Looked a bit innocuous.

 

Would bowl slower in the longer formats.

 

 

bowls same pace in FC too. 

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15 hours ago, sandeep said:

They use a local desi-made balls called "Grays".   Fall apart in 20-25 overs, given the abrasive ground conditions.  Its the main reason why most Pakistani "pacers" have insanely good FC statistics - averages in low 20s etc.   Their "mastery" of a ball in bad condition is achieved over years of practice at the domestic level.  But also ends up cultivating a dependency on ball condition that is erm, difficult to replicate, at the international level - what with cameras and all.  Hence the temptation for their players to bite the ball. or the Pitch.  

some of the white balls pak use are also interesting,here is a video of a guy called ghulam mudassar who clearly is quick but look at the way the ball is carrying to the keeper ,this is a local match not a domestic match ,now he seems to get more zip than what cummins gets in asia ,now either this pitch is quite quick or mudassar is quicker than cummins or the white ball that they are using is quite hard ,now i dont know if it is a local made whiteball or a cheaper kookaburra,if this is a int standard white ball then it is serious pace,i would like to see him bowl in psl and see what type of carry he gets as there they use int quality kookaburra

 

 

 

 

 

here is another video of a guy called shinwari bowling with a white ball in their domestic t20 ,just check the movement ,it's quite a lot, you hardly ever seen such movement with a new white ball ,the pitch too looks whitish which means it was dryish,now soon after this performance shinwari got his int debut vs srilanka but he didnt get this kind of movement with the white ball .

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk2Va3iE4GA

 

 

now i think it is a good thing that they use these ball ,ind too should use the cheaper harder balls if not the swinging balls to help the quicker bowlers hit the bat hard on slow tracks in domestic cricket.

 

 

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/\ I think I know the reason why Mudassir is getting that zip.I remember as a kid, we used to get the same zip when we used to play with the harder plastic ball, on tiled concrete. Also, Mudassir is not necessarily quick, he is just running in very quick and that is giving this illusion. 

Although, I must say that I am impressed by Mudassir. Its obvious that at this point of his life, he is pumped up and giving it his all. This is the time Pakistan need to inject him in, atleast in T20's. I tell you what, he is 5 times the bowler that overhyped waste Md Amir is.

 

Even the 2nd bowler I feel is benefitting from the same reason, hard ball and an equally hard pitch.

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45 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

/\ I think I know the reason why Mudassir is getting that zip.I remember as a kid, we used to get the same zip when we used to play with the harder plastic ball, on tiled concrete. Also, Mudassir is not necessarily quick, he is just running in very quick and that is giving this illusion. 

Although, I must say that I am impressed by Mudassir. Its obvious that at this point of his life, he is pumped up and giving it his all. This is the time Pakistan need to inject him in, atleast in T20's. I tell you what, he is 5 times the bowler that overhyped waste Md Amir is.

 

Even the 2nd bowler I feel is benefitting from the same reason, hard ball and an equally hard pitch.

synthetic deuce balls on concrete surfaces used to fly .... , it's a smart thing that they do that is if they do it intentionally ,it encourages the quicker bowlers and makes it harder to hit the quicker bowlers, in ind if you try to bowl quicker around 135-140 then the ball comes on very nicely onto the bat and run scoring becomes easier ,it is better to bowl 119 120 k on these slow pitches then the ball stops and comes disturbing the rhythm of the bat swing and timing.

Edited by MultiB48

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25 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

synthetic deuce balls on concrete surfaces used to fly .... , it's a smart thing that they do that is if they do it intentionally ,it encourages the quicker bowlers and makes it harder to hit the quicker bowlers, in ind if you try to bowl quicker around 135-140 then the ball comes on very nicely onto the bat and run scoring becomes easier ,it is better to bowl 119 120 k on these slow pitches then the ball stops and comes disturbing the rhythm of the bat swing and timing.

Yes, it is. Also, it will be an advantage to the batsmen when they travel to South Africa and Australia. They will be used to the bounce. 

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No doubt. But the duration for which Pakistan excelled in fast bowling was short lived. 90's was their golden period, although the champion bowlers came in 80's, the 2 W's. 

Now Indians are much faster and are in plenty. While Pakistani bowlers are fast medium at their fastest.

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41 minutes ago, Khota said:

How does a roughed up ball swing in the air?

 

They were roughing the ball and that explains their success.

I don't think its all about roughing it up, although that was a factor.   You still had to know how to rough it up, and how to use it.  Indian team was waaaay behind the curve in understanding, handling, and lastly utilizing reverse swing.   Pakistan were one of the first teams to maximize its use at the international level - this is one of the contributing factors to the effectiveness of the "2 Ws".   And it would be churlish to attribute the Pakistani success in that era of the 90s, purely to "tampering".   Credit should be given to the team and those bowlers for identifying and harnessing the knowledge and skill to move the ball.   Now its possible, that there were occasional situations where greenbros may have taken ball "management" a bit too far.   But overall, it was the knowledge gap that really made them so effective.   

 

There's this great video of Wasim Akram talking about the Pakistan tour of India in the late 90s, where they played with the SG balls for the first time and they were concerned initially but then, they used them in the nets a bit, and realized that the ball starts darting around a lot after 10-12 overs.   He goes on to talk about how the likes of Sadagopan Ramesh would start off hitting boundaries against the new ball, and would look confused as to why the Pak bowlers were totally unconcerned about the boundaries in those early overs.  Wasim just laughed and said they were only biding their time, and once the ball started reversing, they knew it would be easy to start taking wickets.   The infamous Shoaib yorkers to Dravid and Sachin are also part of this - Indian team simply did not understand or expect that type of reverse swing with a new-ish ball at that stage in the game, and were pretty much ambushed by that late movement.  

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48 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I don't think its all about roughing it up, although that was a factor.   You still had to know how to rough it up, and how to use it.  Indian team was waaaay behind the curve in understanding, handling, and lastly utilizing reverse swing.   Pakistan were one of the first teams to maximize its use at the international level - this is one of the contributing factors to the effectiveness of the "2 Ws".   And it would be churlish to attribute the Pakistani success in that era of the 90s, purely to "tampering".   Credit should be given to the team and those bowlers for identifying and harnessing the knowledge and skill to move the ball.   Now its possible, that there were occasional situations where greenbros may have taken ball "management" a bit too far.   But overall, it was the knowledge gap that really made them so effective.   

 

There's this great video of Wasim Akram talking about the Pakistan tour of India in the late 90s, where they played with the SG balls for the first time and they were concerned initially but then, they used them in the nets a bit, and realized that the ball starts darting around a lot after 10-12 overs.   He goes on to talk about how the likes of Sadagopan Ramesh would start off hitting boundaries against the new ball, and would look confused as to why the Pak bowlers were totally unconcerned about the boundaries in those early overs.  Wasim just laughed and said they were only biding their time, and once the ball started reversing, they knew it would be easy to start taking wickets.   The infamous Shoaib yorkers to Dravid and Sachin are also part of this - Indian team simply did not understand or expect that type of reverse swing with a new-ish ball at that stage in the game, and were pretty much ambushed by that late movement.  

all that bs is trustable if they did not use bottle caps. and the acute loss of form across board once we got high speed cameras around the ground. :)

 

a cheat is a cheat, no beating around the bush. if we legalise tampering, yes then we can call them great etc. Till then they are just cheats.

 

 

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1 hour ago, sandeep said:

I don't think its all about roughing it up, although that was a factor.   You still had to know how to rough it up, and how to use it.  Indian team was waaaay behind the curve in understanding, handling, and lastly utilizing reverse swing.   Pakistan were one of the first teams to maximize its use at the international level - this is one of the contributing factors to the effectiveness of the "2 Ws".   And it would be churlish to attribute the Pakistani success in that era of the 90s, purely to "tampering".   Credit should be given to the team and those bowlers for identifying and harnessing the knowledge and skill to move the ball.   Now its possible, that there were occasional situations where greenbros may have taken ball "management" a bit too far.   But overall, it was the knowledge gap that really made them so effective.   

 

There's this great video of Wasim Akram talking about the Pakistan tour of India in the late 90s, where they played with the SG balls for the first time and they were concerned initially but then, they used them in the nets a bit, and realized that the ball starts darting around a lot after 10-12 overs.   He goes on to talk about how the likes of Sadagopan Ramesh would start off hitting boundaries against the new ball, and would look confused as to why the Pak bowlers were totally unconcerned about the boundaries in those early overs.  Wasim just laughed and said they were only biding their time, and once the ball started reversing, they knew it would be easy to start taking wickets.   The infamous Shoaib yorkers to Dravid and Sachin are also part of this - Indian team simply did not understand or expect that type of reverse swing with a new-ish ball at that stage in the game, and were pretty much ambushed by that late movement.  

where is that art lost suddenly among Pakistanis? they had Waqar as their coach.

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30 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

where is that art lost suddenly among Pakistanis? they had Waqar as their coach.

Art isn't lost.  Rest of the world eventually caught up in terms of knowledge and understanding of reverse swing and how to handle it while batting.  Its not as magical and difficult an advantage as it used to be.  And yes, enforcement on 'ball management' has also gotten tighter.   

 

Biggest reason for Pak decline in int'l cricket is that there players are not getting top level contracts in country cricket anymore.   That served as a finishing and training school for their players, since their domestic cricket is a shyteshow.    

Edited by sandeep

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8 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Art isn't lost.  Rest of the world eventually caught up in terms of knowledge and understanding of reverse swing and how to handle it while batting.  Its not as magical and difficult an advantage as it used to be.  And yes, enforcement on 'ball management' has also gotten tighter.   

 

Biggest reason for Pak decline in int'l cricket is that there players are not getting top level contracts in country cricket anymore.   That served as a finishing and training school for their players, since their domestic cricket is a shyteshow.    

what has county cricket to do with reverse swing. Regarding batsman's knowledge, you can actually see that no bowler these days reverse the ball as much as Wasim-Waqar used to do in those days. It is apparently visible to know that those guys used to reverse the ball much earlier, much more and there can be only one reason for that, ball tampering.

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12 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

It is apparently visible to know that those guys used to reverse the ball much earlier, much more

This is a subjective claim.   and intellectually lazy IMO.  Its easy to get caught up in banter, and attribute all of Wasim-Waqar's success to tampering.  I don't think its accurate at all though.  

 

My reference to county cricket was a more general statement on the overall quality of Pakistan players - batsmen AND bowlers.   

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12 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

what has county cricket to do with reverse swing. Regarding batsman's knowledge, you can actually see that no bowler these days reverse the ball as much as Wasim-Waqar used to do in those days. It is apparently visible to know that those guys used to reverse the ball much earlier, much more and there can be only one reason for that, ball tampering.

in county they learned to bowl with new ball and also playing so many matches they had to manage them selves ,also you have to take the responsibility as you are the main guy that too in a foreign atmosphere so they grew as individuals

 


these are all the pacers who played for pak from 1970-2003 the eras of reverse swing 

Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Balls Runs WktsDescending BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10  
Wasim Akram 1985-2002 104 181 22627 9779 414 7/119 11/110 23.62 2.59 54.6 25 5 investigate this query
Waqar Younis 1989-2003 87 154 16224 8788 373 7/76 13/135 23.56 3.25 43.4 22 5 investigate this query
Imran Khan 1971-1992 88 142 19458 8258 362 8/58 14/116 22.81 2.54 53.7 23 6 investigate this query
Sarfraz Nawaz 1972-1984 54 94 13747 5720 177 9/86 11/125 32.31 2.49 77.6 4 1 investigate this query
Shoaib Akhtar 1997-2003 27 50 4737 2587 101 6/11 10/80 25.61 3.27 46.9 6 1 investigate this query
Sikander Bakht 1976-1983 26 45 4870 2412 67 8/69 11/190 36.00 2.97 72.6 3 1 investigate this query
Mudassar Nazar 1976-1989 76 96 5967 2532 66 6/32 6/38 38.36 2.54 90.4 1 0 investigate this query
Azeem Hafeez 1983-1985 18 28 4351 2204 63 6/46 7/160 34.98 3.03 69.0 4 0 investigate this query
Aaqib Javed 1989-1998 22 37 3918 1874 54 5/84 8/118 34.70 2.86 72.5 1 0 investigate this query
Abdul Razzaq 1999-2002 24 38 3367 1585 48 4/25 6/155 33.02 2.82 70.1 0 0 investigate this query
Azhar Mahmood 1997-2001 21 35 3015 1402 39 4/50 5/95 35.94 2.79 77.3 0 0 investigate this query
Saleem Altaf 1971-1978 17 31 3239 1440 37 4/11 7/131 38.91 2.66 87.5 0 0 investigate this query
Saleem Jaffar 1986-1992 14 23 2531 1139 36 5/40 8/134 31.63 2.70 70.3 1 0 investigate this query
Tahir Naqqash 1982-1985 15 27 2800 1398 34 5/40 6/86 41.11 2.99 82.3 2 0 investigate this query
Asif Masood 1971-1977 13 22 2564 1322 32 5/111 9/160 41.31 3.09 80.1 1 0 investigate this query
Ata-ur-Rehman 1992-1996 13 22 1973 1071 31 4/50 4/83 34.54 3.25 63.6 0 0 investigate this query
Mohammad Sami 2001-2003 9 16 1887 1007 25 5/36 8/106 40.28 3.20 75.4 1 0 investigate this query
Mohsin Kamal 1984-1994 9 12 1348 822 24 4/116 4/41 34.25 3.65 56.1 0 0 investigate this query
Aamer Nazir 1993-1995 6 12 1057 597 20 5/46 8/96 29.85 3.38 52.8 1 0 investigate this query
Mohammad Akram 1995-2001 9 15 1477 859 17 5/138 5/138 50.52 3.48 86.8 1 0 investigate this query
Shabbir Ahmed 2003-2003 3 6 714 341 17 5/48 8/109 20.05 2.86 42.0 1 0 investigate this query
Shahid Nazir 1996-1999 8 15 1040 566 17 5/53 7/98 33.29 3.26 61.1 1 0 investigate this query
Ehteshamuddin 1979-1982 5 7 940 375 16 5/47 6/87 23.43 2.39 58.7 1 0 investigate this query
Mohammad Zahid 1996-2003 5 8 792 502 15 7/66 11/130 33.46 3.80 52.8 1 1 investigate this query
Umar Gul 2003-2003 3 6 707 375 15 4/58 8/144 25.00 3.18 47.1 0 0 investigate this query
Asif Iqbal 1971-1980 41 26 1252 540 13 3/37 3/37 41.53 2.58 96.3 0 0 investigate this query
Jalal-ud-Din 1982-1985 6 9 1197 537 11 3/77 5/92 48.81 2.69 108.8 0 0 investigate this query
Fazl-e-Akbar 1998-2001 4 7 638 349 10 3/85 3/32 34.90 3.28 63.8 0 0 investigate this query
Kabir Khan 1994-1995 4 6 655 370 9 3/26 4/71 41.11 3.38 72.7 0 0 investigate this query
Rashid Khan 1982-1985 4 7 738 360 8 3/129 3/78 45.00 2.92 92.2 0 0 investigate this query
Manzoor Elahi 1984-1995 6 7 444 194 7 2/38 3/70 27.71 2.62 63.4 0 0 investigate this query
Liaqat Ali 1975-1978 5 6 808 359 6 3/80 3/80 59.83 2.66 134.6 0 0 investigate this query
Zakir Khan 1986-1989 2 4 444 259 5 3/80 3/150 51.80 3.50 88.8 0 0 investigate this query
Naved Anjum 1989-1990 2 3 342 162 4 2/57 4/149 40.50 2.84 85.5 0 0 investigate this query
Ashfaq Ahmed 1993-1993 1 2 138 53 2 2/31 2/53 26.50 2.30 69.0 0 0 investigate this query
Ijaz Ahmed 1987-2001 60 6 180 77 2 1/9 1/9 38.50 2.56 90.0 0 0 investigate this query
Irfan Fazil 2000-2000 1 2 48 65 2 1/30 2/65 32.50 8.12 24.0 0 0 investigate this query
Shahid Mahboob 1989-1989 1 1 294 131 2 2/131 2/131 65.50 2.67 147.0 0 0

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

these are the ones who played during the wasim waqar era

 

 

 

 

Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs WktsDescending BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10  
Wasim Akram 1985-2002 104 181 3771.1 871 9779 414 7/119 11/110 23.62 2.59 54.6 25 5 investigate this query
Waqar Younis 1989-2003 87 154 2704.0 516 8788 373 7/76 13/135 23.56 3.25 43.4 22 5 investigate this query
Imran Khan 1985-1992 37 54 1151.1 261 2942 130 7/40 11/121 22.63 2.55 53.1 7 2 investigate this query
Shoaib Akhtar 1997-2002 25 46 711.4 126 2392 88 6/11 8/72 27.18 3.36 48.5 5 0 investigate this query
Aaqib Javed 1989-1998 22 37 653.0 136 1874 54 5/84 8/118 34.70 2.86 72.5 1 0 investigate this query
Abdul Razzaq 1999-2002 24 38 561.1 110 1585 48 4/25 6/155 33.02 2.82 70.1 0 0 investigate this query
Azhar Mahmood 1997-2001 21 35 502.3 111 1402 39 4/50 5/95 35.94 2.79 77.3 0 0 investigate this query
Saleem Jaffar 1986-1992 14 23 421.5 93 1139 36 5/40 8/134 31.63 2.70 70.3 1 0 investigate this query
Ata-ur-Rehman 1992-1996 13 22 328.5 62 1071 31 4/50 4/83 34.54 3.25 63.6 0 0 investigate this query
Mohammad Sami 2001-2003 9 16 314.3 57 1007 25 5/36 8/106 40.28 3.20 75.4 1 0 investigate this query
Mudassar Nazar 1985-1989 26 34 347.2 79 842 23 2/13 3/34 36.60 2.42 90.6 0 0 investigate this query
Mohsin Kamal 1985-1994 8 10 192.4 25 697 22 4/116 4/41 31.68 3.61 52.5 0 0 investigate this query
Aamer Nazir 1993-1995 6 12 176.1 24 597 20 5/46 8/96 29.85 3.38 52.8 1 0 investigate this query
Mohammad Akram 1995-2001 9 15 246.1 37 859 17 5/138 5/138 50.52 3.48 86.8 1 0 investigate this query
Shahid Nazir 1996-1999 8 15 173.2 32 566 17 5/53 7/98 33.29 3.26 61.1 1 0 investigate this query
Mohammad Zahid 1996-2003 5 8 132.0 17 502 15 7/66 11/130 33.46 3.80 52.8 1 1 investigate this query
Fazl-e-Akbar 1998-2001 4 7 106.2 21 349 10 3/85 3/32 34.90 3.28 63.8 0 0 investigate this query
Kabir Khan 1994-1995 4 6 109.1 15 370 9 3/26 4/71 41.11 3.38 72.7 0 0 investigate this query
Azeem Hafeez 1985-1985 2 3 99.0 25 306 6 3/157 3/149 51.00 3.09 99.0 0 0 investigate this query
Manzoor Elahi 1987-1995 4 5 51.0 19 118 6 2/38 3/70 19.66 2.31 51.0 0 0 investigate this query
Zakir Khan 1986-1989 2 4 74.0 13 259 5 3/80 3/150 51.80 3.50 88.8 0 0 investigate this query
Naved Anjum 1989-1990 2 3 57.0 14 162 4 2/57 4/149 40.50 2.84 85.5 0 0 investigate this query
Tahir Naqqash 1985-1985 1 2 33.2 5 81 3 2/23 3/81 27.00 2.43 66.6 0 0 investigate this query
Ashfaq Ahmed 1993-1993 1 2 23.0 9 53 2 2/31 2/53 26.50 2.30 69.0 0 0 investigate this query
Ijaz Ahmed 1987-2001 60 6 30.0 1 77 2 1/9 1/9 38.50 2.56 90.0 0 0 investigate this query
Irfan Fazil 2000-2000 1 2 8.0 0 65 2 1/30 2/65 32.50 8.12 24.0 0 0 investigate this query
Rashid Khan 1985-1985 1 2 32.0 9 97 2 2/64 2/97 48.50 3.03 96.0 0 0 investigate this query
Shahid Mahboob 1989-1989 1 1 49.0 12 131 2 2/131 2/131 65.50 2.67 147.0 0 0 investigate this query
Aamer Malik 1987-1994 14 9 26.0 5 89 1 1/0 1/6 89.00 3.42 156.0 0 0 investigate this query
Jalal-ud-Din 1985-1985 1 1 39.0 12 89 1 1/89 1/89 89.00 2.28 234.0 0 0 investigate this query
Shahid Saeed 1989-1989 1 2 15.0 0 43 0 - - - 2.86 - 0 0 investigate this query
Mansoor Akhtar 1987-1990 6 - - - - - - - - - -

 

,most seem to have very high s/r and survived on e/r,wasim waqr had lots of skill otherwise everyone from pak would have had good numbers

 

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36 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Art isn't lost.  Rest of the world eventually caught up in terms of knowledge and understanding of reverse swing and how to handle it while batting.  Its not as magical and difficult an advantage as it used to be.  And yes, enforcement on 'ball management' has also gotten tighter.   

 

Biggest reason for Pak decline in int'l cricket is that there players are not getting top level contracts in country cricket anymore.   That served as a finishing and training school for their players, since their domestic cricket is a shyteshow.    

lol applology not accepted..hehe..stop telling yourself that you care dude, come on you know you dont. Some scum cheated their way and got caught with their pants down, the ball can reverse with natural and wear & tear and some legal aid ( no pun intended), the illegal aid in terms of bottle caps and mud made it prodigious which is what fetched them wickets, this went missing after increased scrutiny. Some of them were legit fine bowlers, Wasim was definitely a great and Waqar could swing at pace but you can tell that they are not the messiahs that they are made out to be , they would not have needed bottle caps if they were. 

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4 hours ago, sandeep said:

I don't think its all about roughing it up, although that was a factor.   You still had to know how to rough it up, and how to use it.  Indian team was waaaay behind the curve in understanding, handling, and lastly utilizing reverse swing.   Pakistan were one of the first teams to maximize its use at the international level - this is one of the contributing factors to the effectiveness of the "2 Ws".   And it would be churlish to attribute the Pakistani success in that era of the 90s, purely to "tampering".   Credit should be given to the team and those bowlers for identifying and harnessing the knowledge and skill to move the ball.   Now its possible, that there were occasional situations where greenbros may have taken ball "management" a bit too far.   But overall, it was the knowledge gap that really made them so effective.   

 

There's this great video of Wasim Akram talking about the Pakistan tour of India in the late 90s, where they played with the SG balls for the first time and they were concerned initially but then, they used them in the nets a bit, and realized that the ball starts darting around a lot after 10-12 overs.   He goes on to talk about how the likes of Sadagopan Ramesh would start off hitting boundaries against the new ball, and would look confused as to why the Pak bowlers were totally unconcerned about the boundaries in those early overs.  Wasim just laughed and said they were only biding their time, and once the ball started reversing, they knew it would be easy to start taking wickets.   The infamous Shoaib yorkers to Dravid and Sachin are also part of this - Indian team simply did not understand or expect that type of reverse swing with a new-ish ball at that stage in the game, and were pretty much ambushed by that late movement.  

Lot of seam movement they got was by lifting it. That caused some turbulence and the ball moved quiet a bit more than to be expected from simply keeping one side shining and other not. 

They were good but not that goos as they claim. 

Why has their supply of pace bowling resources diminished. I think not being able to cheat has really hurt them more than any other team.

 

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On 10/3/2017 at 11:38 AM, MultiB48 said:

in county they learned to bowl with new ball and also playing so many matches they had to manage them selves ,also you have to take the responsibility as you are the main guy that too in a foreign atmosphere so they grew as individuals

 


these are all the pacers who played for pak from 1970-2003 the eras of reverse swing 

Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Balls Runs WktsDescending BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10  
Wasim Akram 1985-2002 104 181 22627 9779 414 7/119 11/110 23.62 2.59 54.6 25 5 investigate this query
Waqar Younis 1989-2003 87 154 16224 8788 373 7/76 13/135 23.56 3.25 43.4 22 5 investigate this query
Imran Khan 1971-1992 88 142 19458 8258 362 8/58 14/116 22.81 2.54 53.7 23 6 investigate this query
Sarfraz Nawaz 1972-1984 54 94 13747 5720 177 9/86 11/125 32.31 2.49 77.6 4 1 investigate this query
Shoaib Akhtar 1997-2003 27 50 4737 2587 101 6/11 10/80 25.61 3.27 46.9 6 1 investigate this query
Sikander Bakht 1976-1983 26 45 4870 2412 67 8/69 11/190 36.00 2.97 72.6 3 1 investigate this query
Mudassar Nazar 1976-1989 76 96 5967 2532 66 6/32 6/38 38.36 2.54 90.4 1 0 investigate this query
Azeem Hafeez 1983-1985 18 28 4351 2204 63 6/46 7/160 34.98 3.03 69.0 4 0 investigate this query
Aaqib Javed 1989-1998 22 37 3918 1874 54 5/84 8/118 34.70 2.86 72.5 1 0 investigate this query
Abdul Razzaq 1999-2002 24 38 3367 1585 48 4/25 6/155 33.02 2.82 70.1 0 0 investigate this query
Azhar Mahmood 1997-2001 21 35 3015 1402 39 4/50 5/95 35.94 2.79 77.3 0 0 investigate this query
Saleem Altaf 1971-1978 17 31 3239 1440 37 4/11 7/131 38.91 2.66 87.5 0 0 investigate this query
Saleem Jaffar 1986-1992 14 23 2531 1139 36 5/40 8/134 31.63 2.70 70.3 1 0 investigate this query
Tahir Naqqash 1982-1985 15 27 2800 1398 34 5/40 6/86 41.11 2.99 82.3 2 0 investigate this query
Asif Masood 1971-1977 13 22 2564 1322 32 5/111 9/160 41.31 3.09 80.1 1 0 investigate this query
Ata-ur-Rehman 1992-1996 13 22 1973 1071 31 4/50 4/83 34.54 3.25 63.6 0 0 investigate this query
Mohammad Sami 2001-2003 9 16 1887 1007 25 5/36 8/106 40.28 3.20 75.4 1 0 investigate this query
Mohsin Kamal 1984-1994 9 12 1348 822 24 4/116 4/41 34.25 3.65 56.1 0 0 investigate this query
Aamer Nazir 1993-1995 6 12 1057 597 20 5/46 8/96 29.85 3.38 52.8 1 0 investigate this query
Mohammad Akram 1995-2001 9 15 1477 859 17 5/138 5/138 50.52 3.48 86.8 1 0 investigate this query
Shabbir Ahmed 2003-2003 3 6 714 341 17 5/48 8/109 20.05 2.86 42.0 1 0 investigate this query
Shahid Nazir 1996-1999 8 15 1040 566 17 5/53 7/98 33.29 3.26 61.1 1 0 investigate this query
Ehteshamuddin 1979-1982 5 7 940 375 16 5/47 6/87 23.43 2.39 58.7 1 0 investigate this query
Mohammad Zahid 1996-2003 5 8 792 502 15 7/66 11/130 33.46 3.80 52.8 1 1 investigate this query
Umar Gul 2003-2003 3 6 707 375 15 4/58 8/144 25.00 3.18 47.1 0 0 investigate this query
Asif Iqbal 1971-1980 41 26 1252 540 13 3/37 3/37 41.53 2.58 96.3 0 0 investigate this query
Jalal-ud-Din 1982-1985 6 9 1197 537 11 3/77 5/92 48.81 2.69 108.8 0 0 investigate this query
Fazl-e-Akbar 1998-2001 4 7 638 349 10 3/85 3/32 34.90 3.28 63.8 0 0 investigate this query
Kabir Khan 1994-1995 4 6 655 370 9 3/26 4/71 41.11 3.38 72.7 0 0 investigate this query
Rashid Khan 1982-1985 4 7 738 360 8 3/129 3/78 45.00 2.92 92.2 0 0 investigate this query
Manzoor Elahi 1984-1995 6 7 444 194 7 2/38 3/70 27.71 2.62 63.4 0 0 investigate this query
Liaqat Ali 1975-1978 5 6 808 359 6 3/80 3/80 59.83 2.66 134.6 0 0 investigate this query
Zakir Khan 1986-1989 2 4 444 259 5 3/80 3/150 51.80 3.50 88.8 0 0 investigate this query
Naved Anjum 1989-1990 2 3 342 162 4 2/57 4/149 40.50 2.84 85.5 0 0 investigate this query
Ashfaq Ahmed 1993-1993 1 2 138 53 2 2/31 2/53 26.50 2.30 69.0 0 0 investigate this query
Ijaz Ahmed 1987-2001 60 6 180 77 2 1/9 1/9 38.50 2.56 90.0 0 0 investigate this query
Irfan Fazil 2000-2000 1 2 48 65 2 1/30 2/65 32.50 8.12 24.0 0 0 investigate this query
Shahid Mahboob 1989-1989 1 1 294 131 2 2/131 2/131 65.50 2.67 147.0 0 0

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

these are the ones who played during the wasim waqar era

 

 

 

 

Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs WktsDescending BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10  
Wasim Akram 1985-2002 104 181 3771.1 871 9779 414 7/119 11/110 23.62 2.59 54.6 25 5 investigate this query
Waqar Younis 1989-2003 87 154 2704.0 516 8788 373 7/76 13/135 23.56 3.25 43.4 22 5 investigate this query
Imran Khan 1985-1992 37 54 1151.1 261 2942 130 7/40 11/121 22.63 2.55 53.1 7 2 investigate this query
Shoaib Akhtar 1997-2002 25 46 711.4 126 2392 88 6/11 8/72 27.18 3.36 48.5 5 0 investigate this query
Aaqib Javed 1989-1998 22 37 653.0 136 1874 54 5/84 8/118 34.70 2.86 72.5 1 0 investigate this query
Abdul Razzaq 1999-2002 24 38 561.1 110 1585 48 4/25 6/155 33.02 2.82 70.1 0 0 investigate this query
Azhar Mahmood 1997-2001 21 35 502.3 111 1402 39 4/50 5/95 35.94 2.79 77.3 0 0 investigate this query
Saleem Jaffar 1986-1992 14 23 421.5 93 1139 36 5/40 8/134 31.63 2.70 70.3 1 0 investigate this query
Ata-ur-Rehman 1992-1996 13 22 328.5 62 1071 31 4/50 4/83 34.54 3.25 63.6 0 0 investigate this query
Mohammad Sami 2001-2003 9 16 314.3 57 1007 25 5/36 8/106 40.28 3.20 75.4 1 0 investigate this query
Mudassar Nazar 1985-1989 26 34 347.2 79 842 23 2/13 3/34 36.60 2.42 90.6 0 0 investigate this query
Mohsin Kamal 1985-1994 8 10 192.4 25 697 22 4/116 4/41 31.68 3.61 52.5 0 0 investigate this query
Aamer Nazir 1993-1995 6 12 176.1 24 597 20 5/46 8/96 29.85 3.38 52.8 1 0 investigate this query
Mohammad Akram 1995-2001 9 15 246.1 37 859 17 5/138 5/138 50.52 3.48 86.8 1 0 investigate this query
Shahid Nazir 1996-1999 8 15 173.2 32 566 17 5/53 7/98 33.29 3.26 61.1 1 0 investigate this query
Mohammad Zahid 1996-2003 5 8 132.0 17 502 15 7/66 11/130 33.46 3.80 52.8 1 1 investigate this query
Fazl-e-Akbar 1998-2001 4 7 106.2 21 349 10 3/85 3/32 34.90 3.28 63.8 0 0 investigate this query
Kabir Khan 1994-1995 4 6 109.1 15 370 9 3/26 4/71 41.11 3.38 72.7 0 0 investigate this query
Azeem Hafeez 1985-1985 2 3 99.0 25 306 6 3/157 3/149 51.00 3.09 99.0 0 0 investigate this query
Manzoor Elahi 1987-1995 4 5 51.0 19 118 6 2/38 3/70 19.66 2.31 51.0 0 0 investigate this query
Zakir Khan 1986-1989 2 4 74.0 13 259 5 3/80 3/150 51.80 3.50 88.8 0 0 investigate this query
Naved Anjum 1989-1990 2 3 57.0 14 162 4 2/57 4/149 40.50 2.84 85.5 0 0 investigate this query
Tahir Naqqash 1985-1985 1 2 33.2 5 81 3 2/23 3/81 27.00 2.43 66.6 0 0 investigate this query
Ashfaq Ahmed 1993-1993 1 2 23.0 9 53 2 2/31 2/53 26.50 2.30 69.0 0 0 investigate this query
Ijaz Ahmed 1987-2001 60 6 30.0 1 77 2 1/9 1/9 38.50 2.56 90.0 0 0 investigate this query
Irfan Fazil 2000-2000 1 2 8.0 0 65 2 1/30 2/65 32.50 8.12 24.0 0 0 investigate this query
Rashid Khan 1985-1985 1 2 32.0 9 97 2 2/64 2/97 48.50 3.03 96.0 0 0 investigate this query
Shahid Mahboob 1989-1989 1 1 49.0 12 131 2 2/131 2/131 65.50 2.67 147.0 0 0 investigate this query
Aamer Malik 1987-1994 14 9 26.0 5 89 1 1/0 1/6 89.00 3.42 156.0 0 0 investigate this query
Jalal-ud-Din 1985-1985 1 1 39.0 12 89 1 1/89 1/89 89.00 2.28 234.0 0 0 investigate this query
Shahid Saeed 1989-1989 1 2 15.0 0 43 0 - - - 2.86 - 0 0 investigate this query
Mansoor Akhtar 1987-1990 6 - - - - - - - - - -

 

,most seem to have very high s/r and survived on e/r,wasim waqr had lots of skill otherwise everyone from pak would have had good numbers

 

Among bowlers with long-term careers, the only good pacers for Pak from late 80s to late 2000s were Akram and Waqar and Akhtar (who was however inconsistent). Like Amby-Walsh, the two W's carried the attack mostly by themselves. Even Waqar fell off badly after the first 5-6 years of his career.

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Pakistan no doubt among Asian countries had the best attack, also during that time Imran, Akram, Waqar, M Akram, Zahid, Aaquib, Saleem Jaffer, they had a steady stream of pCers who could bowl fast, now surprisingly they have gone downhill, it's like tables have turned, we have Fast bowlers now who can bowl with menace n have skills n they have medium pacers like Hasan Ali, Sohail, haven't seen any exciting fast bowling talent coming from Pakistan in a long time , there were some bowlers like M Irfan, Wahab but turned out to be damp squib.

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On 8/16/2017 at 2:23 PM, putrevus said:

Pakistani had three ATG great fast bowlers and one or two good one but his nonsense that they have this factory of fast bowlers is ridiculous.Pakistan is very poor team just one match does not that fact.

 

It is their batting which won them CT finals not their bowling.

No, It was Kohli's ego which gifted them the cup

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On 7/26/2017 at 11:56 AM, Imtiaz said:

Grace I think which isnt of very good quality

Dont your youngster grow up playing with tape ball. I think, thats the root cause. Bowlers at young age rely on sheer pace and swing in air

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1 hour ago, putrevus said:

What has that got to do with the loss.

Kumble had to be undermined and had go, hook or crook. Hence, we batted second despite winning toss and against the wishes of Coach. If that was not enough, Aamir has to be greater than greatest bowler in the history of cricket to make sure that he bundles whole Indian top order in a span of 5 overs or Kohli has to be super ordinary lower league player to gift his wicket twice to him on consecutive balls.

 

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8 hours ago, Lala2790 said:

Bump.

 

Hasan Ali No. 1 ODI ranked bowler.  We keep producing these wonderful bowlers and keep our tradition of being recognized as the world's best fast bowling factory

Absolutely .

There is immense fast bowling talent coming through .

Haris Rauf is someone i am keen to see develop . Straight out of tapeball and he already clocks over 90mph . Potential to become express . Hope he develops well .

There are some very good prospects coming through .

Pakistan already has the best limited overs bowling lineup in the world and the bench strength is amazing.

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1 hour ago, Forever Indian said:

Hope factory doesn't continue to produce malfunctioning goods which cannot have a straight arm or bowl without bottlecaps usage.

Your first choice pacers are worse than pakistan's list of discarded bowlers .

Bhuvaneshawar with his mid 30s average has a worse record than someone like  Wahab riaz but to be fair to Riaz he can bowl quicker than anyone India has ever produced so i wouldn't make fun of Pakistani bowlers tbh.

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25 minutes ago, the don said:

Your first choice pacers are worse than pakistan's list of discarded bowlers .

Bhuvaneshawar with his mid 30s average has a worse record than someone like  Wahab riaz but to be fair to Riaz he can bowl quicker than anyone India has ever produced so i wouldn't make fun of Pakistani bowlers tbh.

Yeah, we all saw what the discarded bowlers did in SL tests :giggle:

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47 minutes ago, gharampaani said:

Damn, you Indians are hardcore...even on Pakpassion plenty of Indian cricketers get credit and yet we have 99% of posters on here trying to make out like Pakistan doesnt produce great fast bowlers...heck even the English own up to this obvious fact. 

 

In this century alone we've seen Akhtar, Sami, Asif, Amir, Gul and plenty of others, no only bowl fast but bowl well. Some were more consistent than others and some ended their careers in the wrong but but none the less, they were better than any number of "fast" bowlers India produced, unless we include ZK. 

 

That's not to mention the latest line of Amir, Hasan, Junaid, Raees, Shinwari, Irfan, Irfan Jr, Rahat and so on. Yes there has been a bit of a down turn in recent years but that was more than made up for by a barrage of really good spinners.  

 

im starting to wonder if there are any real cricket fans here at all 

Did you just say Sami? Dude, he bowled fast for sure but was murdered every time he bowled. And Gul was good initially but then he lost it.

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2 hours ago, gharampaani said:

Damn, you Indians are hardcore...even on Pakpassion plenty of Indian cricketers get credit and yet we have 99% of posters on here trying to make out like Pakistan doesnt produce great fast bowlers...heck even the English own up to this obvious fact. 

 

In this century alone we've seen Akhtar, Sami, Asif, Amir, Gul and plenty of others, no only bowl fast but bowl well. Some were more consistent than others and some ended their careers in the wrong but but none the less, they were better than any number of "fast" bowlers India produced, unless we include ZK. 

 

That's not to mention the latest line of Amir, Hasan, Junaid, Raees, Shinwari, Irfan, Irfan Jr, Rahat and so on. Yes there has been a bit of a down turn in recent years but that was more than made up for by a barrage of really good spinners.  

 

im starting to wonder if there are any real cricket fans here at all 

Pakpassion is a **** website.

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