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Michael Vaughan concludes Steve Smith is a better test batsmen than Sachin !!!

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7 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Did you ever watch Tendy bat in the 2nd half of the 90s?  Comparing Sachin past his prime, to the absolute peaks of guys like Ponting, Kohli, Smith, Dravid etc etc - its a familiar bit.

Yes I did. You can't just bracket Smith with the others you've mentioned. He averages >60 across his career, ~ 10 points more than the next bets of his generation. 

 

So yes, I was talking about Sachin's career in entirety. We need to overcome this home bias and open ourselves to facts - the fact that Smith is the best modern Test bat doesn't in anyway take away from Sachin's or Kohli's accomplishments. Both had / have a far better all round game (hence their terrific ODI records) than Smith.

Edited by Pandya_Power

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24 minutes ago, Pandya_Power said:

Yes I did. You can't just bracket Smith with the others you've mentioned. He averages >60 across his career, ~ 10 points more than the next bets of his generation. 

 

So yes, I was talking about Sachin's career in entirety. We need to overcome this home bias and open ourselves to facts - the fact that Smith is the best modern Test bat doesn't in anyway take away from Sachin's or Kohli's accomplishments. Both had / have a far better all round game (hence their terrific ODI records) than Smith.

What obsession, talk when smith maintain this 60 avg for more than 150 matches.Just because someone better  in this generation that too in 60 matches doesn't mean better than others.In today's world only sa and india f*from past 2 years ) has some consistent bowling attack. And eng has better bowling attack till 2016 when ansu and broad was in peak.

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3 minutes ago, bahubali said:

What obsession, talk when smith maintain this 60 avg for more than 150 matches.Just because someone better  in this generation that too in 60 matches doesn't mean better than others.In today's world only sa and india f*from past 2 years ) has some consistent bowling attack. And eng has better bowling attack till 2016 when ansu and broad was in peak.

 

if average matters then sanga > sachin ..

whenever aussiea are in trouble , smith saves them .. rarely sachin did even in his peak

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24 minutes ago, Pandya_Power said:

So yes, I was talking about Sachin's career in entirety. We need to overcome this home bias and open ourselves to facts - the fact that Smith is the best modern Test bat doesn't in anyway take away from Sachin's or Kohli's accomplishments. Both had / have a far better all round game (hence their terrific ODI records) than Smith.

You can't talk about Sachin's career in its "entirety" and compare it to Smith who's in the middle of his prime.  If you want an apples to apples comparison, you should take Tendy's prime and compare it to Smith's.  Or wait till Smith retires.  We all saw how Ponting's numbers cratered in his last year or so.  Tendulkar also averaged in the 60s when he was in his prime in the 90s.  And did it in an significantly weaker team on either side of the ball. 

 

I have no qualms with saying xyz is better than Sachin.  But if you make unequivocal statements about xyz is better, without taking into account all relevant factors, you should be prepared to see perspectives that challenge it. 

 

Sure, you can prefer to make like an ostrich, put your head in the sand, and assume I'm just a blind "worshipper" etc etc. 

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That's a personal opinion from an English player during an Ashes moment. Lot of different players get this specific comment from ex-players when they are doing amazingly well. 

 

The thing is during the last two decades, when someone has said this is the best guy I have seen .. the immediate comparisons happen with Sachin  and how this guy is better than Sachin .. I don't have to spell out what that means :--D

Edited by Cricspin

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2 minutes ago, bahubali said:

What obsession, talk when smith maintain this 60 avg for more than 150 matches.Just because someone better  in this generation that too in 60 matches doesn't mean better than others.In today's world only sa and india f*from past 2 years ) has some consistent bowling attack. And eng has better bowling attack till 2016 when ansu and broad was in peak.

60 matches is not a small sample size! Infact he might have finished >50% of his career. Its gone on long enough for us to safely conclude its not a purple patch (like Hussey at the start of his career). He has been playing for a decade almost.

 

If he can display this kind of form after returning from a ban of 1 year, I don't think anything will disrupt his run.

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3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

You can't talk about Sachin's career in its "entirety" and compare it to Smith who's in the middle of his prime.  If you want an apples to apples comparison, you should take Tendy's prime and compare it to Smith's.  Or wait till Smith retires.  We all saw how Ponting's numbers cratered in his last year or so.  Tendulkar also averaged in the 60s when he was in his prime in the 90s.  And did it in an significantly weaker team on either side of the ball. 

 

I have no qualms with saying xyz is better than Sachin.  But if you make unequivocal statements about xyz is better, without taking into account all relevant factors, you should be prepared to see perspectives that challenge it. 

 

Sure, you can prefer to make like an ostrich, put your head in the sand, and assume I'm just a blind "worshipper" etc etc. 

Good to hear that you're open to other perspectives, as am I. Its just that I am not convinced Sachin was better as things stand. Certainly if Smith suffers a prolonged dip in form, it could make things interesting (in my book).

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2 minutes ago, Pandya_Power said:

60 matches is not a small sample size! Infact he might have finished >50% of his career. Its gone on long enough for us to safely conclude its not a purple patch (like Hussey at the start of his career). He has been playing for a decade almost.

 

If he can display this kind of form after returning from a ban of 1 year, I don't think anything will disrupt his run.

Ever heard that old legal disclaimer on mutual funds?  The one about past performance not guaranteeing future results? 

 

All batsmen go through a basic cycle - they start off their career, experience a bit of a plateau, find their game, hit their prime, and then in the 2nd half of their career, slowly fade and decline.  Different players willl put up different number of games under those phases, but they all go through this cycle.  Smith, Kohli, Williamson -are all in their prime, and yet to hit the past-prime phase. 

 

Tendy was a bit of an outlier, because in his post-prime phase, he managed to play at the highest level for a decade.  Majority of batsmen - even great ones like Dravid, Ponting, Gavaskar etc - only manage a year or 2 in the post-prime phase.  What this does, is skews Sachin's career numbers down.  But it doesn't matter.  If you pick a 4 to 5 year period for a batsman in the middle of his career, when he is putting up his best numbers - you can take that and compare it to others.  This still doesn't take into account other variables, such as the number of test matches played (opportunities), playing conditions, quality of opposition, Quality of new-ball protection enjoyed by middle order batsmen etc.  This is what makes comparisons inherently difficult and ambiguous.  And why blanket statements like X is better than Y, should be made after due consideration. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Pandya_Power said:

Good to hear that you're open to other perspectives, as am I. Its just that I am not convinced Sachin was better as things stand. Certainly if Smith suffers a prolonged dip in form, it could make things interesting (in my book).

Since you appear to believe that Smith is somehow magically going to continue performing at his current levels - here's a prediction for you - for the last 18 years of Smith's test career, he will average less than 25.  Whenever that is. 

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Did Tendulkar ever hit an average of 60?  I think came close but didn't touch it.  Unless, you're going to break up his career into multiple sections, I don't think he touched 60?

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41 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Just dont get this obsession of comparison specially players from diff era

Vaughn likes to troll - he says a lot of things intentionally, tongue in cheek.  Simpletons sometimes bite, others take the bait to demonstrate how "un-biased" they are, never mind the actual facts...

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52 minutes ago, Pandya_Power said:

Yes I did. You can't just bracket Smith with the others you've mentioned. He averages >60 across his career, ~ 10 points more than the next bets of his generation. 

 

So yes, I was talking about Sachin's career in entirety. We need to overcome this home bias and open ourselves to facts - the fact that Smith is the best modern Test bat doesn't in anyway take away from Sachin's or Kohli's accomplishments. Both had / have a far better all round game (hence their terrific ODI records) than Smith.

the underlying assumption in your argument is that similar averages across different eras are directly comparable. Yes statistically Tendulkar may behind (in terms of average) but that not the same as saying he's a lesser batsmen. 

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4 minutes ago, Epic said:

Did Tendulkar ever hit an average of 60?  I think came close but didn't touch it.  Unless, you're going to break up his career into multiple sections, I don't think he touched 60?

Personally, I believe in the latter stages of his career - he actually tried to target increasing his average, and failed.  The entire declaration saga with Dravid was primarily because Tendy wanted to get his 200, but also wanted to stay not out - and Dravid rightly put the team's interests ahead of his. 

 

I believe Tendy was influenced by SMG on this front - because he didn't play the first 15 years of his career as a guy who cared about personal stats.

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18 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Since you appear to believe that Smith is somehow magically going to continue performing at his current levels - here's a prediction for you - for the last 18 years of Smith's test career, he will average less than 25.  Whenever that is. 

most of these morons are victims of the recency effect; critical analysis damaag mein hai nahin

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1 hour ago, Pandya_Power said:

Yes I did. You can't just bracket Smith with the others you've mentioned. He averages >60 across his career, ~ 10 points more than the next bets of his generation. 

 

So yes, I was talking about Sachin's career in entirety. We need to overcome this home bias and open ourselves to facts - the fact that Smith is the best modern Test bat doesn't in anyway take away from Sachin's or Kohli's accomplishments. Both had / have a far better all round game (hence their terrific ODI records) than Smith.

So did sachin for a long time. Ponting. Kallis. Sanga. All of them averaged very high at their peak In the 90d when sachin was averaging around 59 the next best was 51 and only 2-3 batsmen even averaged 50

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44 minutes ago, velu said:

 

if average matters then sanga > sachin ..

whenever aussiea are in trouble , smith saves them .. rarely sachin did even in his peak

In 90 to 2000 only sachin was saving our asses home or away don't know which series you were watching I can give 10s of example where he  scored 100 for fun still india was bundling out within 200.

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44 minutes ago, Pandya_Power said:

60 matches is not a small sample size! Infact he might have finished >50% of his career. Its gone on long enough for us to safely conclude its not a purple patch (like Hussey at the start of his career). He has been playing for a decade almost.

 

If he can display this kind of form after returning from a ban of 1 year, I don't think anything will disrupt his run.

He is too good in this generation best batsmen of his time but calling him best ever after Bradman is too much.

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6 minutes ago, bahubali said:

In 90 to 2000 only sachin was saving our asses home or away don't know which series you were watching I can give 10s of example where he  scored 100 for fun still india was bundling out within 200.

 

which one ? there are few .. 

but none is comparable to the effects of smithy

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=series

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1 minute ago, velu said:

 

which one ? there are few .. 

 but none is comparable to the effects of smithy

  

 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=series

ok Velu, Mahi is the best test, odi, twonty twonty, t10, Hong Kong sixes, snow cricket and tape ball cricket batsman of all time. 

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4 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

ok Velu, Mahi is the best test, odi, twonty twonty, t10, Hong Kong sixes, snow cricket and tape ball cricket batsman of all time. 

 

1 hour ago, velu said:

 

thala hates test cricket :dontknow:

 

:dontknow:

anyway check what happened in kashmir .. thala went for a patrol and whole valley is shivering :giggle:

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22 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

most of these morons are victims of the recency effect; critical analysis damaag mein hai nahin

Ghanta. I bet I'm far more qualified than you to make logical arguments - being a trained lawyer as well as a graduate from a top 20 MBA program in the US.

 

I stick to my stand you and Sandeep suffer from "home bias". How else do you justify arguments like "Smith will avg less than tendy for the last 18 years of his career"?.

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1 hour ago, velu said:

 

if average matters then sanga > sachin ..

whenever aussiea are in trouble , smith saves them .. rarely sachin did even in his peak 

Aussies in "trouble" is basically  the match situation that Sachin batted at in majority of his innings in the 1990s - you had guys like Debang Gandhi open the batting for India - 20/2 was the norm. 

 

But you do you.  Isn't it time for the hourly thala-pooja in your shrine? Next to that dead pigeon?:winky:

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12 minutes ago, Pandya_Power said:

Ghanta. I bet I'm far more qualified than you to make logical arguments - being a trained lawyer as well as a graduate from a top 20 MBA program in the US.

 

I stick to my stand you and Sandeep suffer from "home bias". How else do you justify arguments like "Smith will avg less than tendy for the last 18 years of his career"?.

these are excellent achievments (honestly well done!) but I'll think you'll find there's plenty on this website with something similar; such points won't help to positively differentiate your statements. I'd suggest sticking to competing on the merits of your arguments (purpose of a forum)

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4 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

these are excellent achievments (honestly well done!) but I'll think you'll find there's plenty on this website with something similar; such points won't help to positively differentiate your statements. I'd suggest sticking to competing on the merits of your arguments (purpose of a forum)

I'm aware. I used to be regular on the forum a decade ago. You should not always make the default assumption that you're talking to a teenager who started watching cricket in the last decade.

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22 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Ever heard of a strawman argument Mr. MBA Lawyer?

You already know that I have. Infact most lawyers are trained to pick apart strawman fallacy. I quoted your statement with the intent of showing how you were discrediting Smith based on Sachin's longevity (he is an outlier based on career span, just like Smith is in terms of Average).

 

I'll post separately to address the merits of current era bowlign standards to the late 90's. My initail impression is that its a lot closer than people think. I got a match to watch now!

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3 hours ago, Epic said:

Did Tendulkar ever hit an average of 60?  I think came close but didn't touch it.  Unless, you're going to break up his career into multiple sections, I don't think he touched 60?

Just one section, 150+ matches, 13k+ runs at avg of 60 from 1993-2011

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3 hours ago, Pandya_Power said:

60 matches is not a small sample size! Infact he might have finished >50% of his career. Its gone on long enough for us to safely conclude its not a purple patch (like Hussey at the start of his career). He has been playing for a decade almost.

 

If he can display this kind of form after returning from a ban of 1 year, I don't think anything will disrupt his run.

between 2002 to 2006 period Ponting averaged 70 plus, his peak, played 50-60 tests.  After that, averaged 40-42 till he retired ended up with an averaged for early 40s.  Smith for his first 20 tests average 40, averages 74 in his last 45 tests.  So, he may well go down to 40-45 like ponting did.

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3 hours ago, velu said:

 

which one ? there are few .. 

but none is comparable to the effects of smithy

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=series

look at all the series in your list between 96 to 2000 which you have mentioned he was the lone warrior and india was hardly playing any 5 match series like aus get so definitely you ll not aee 400 or 500 score series. After 2000 he has dravid and laxman to accompanied and india started getting long series also.

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6 hours ago, Cricspin said:

That's a personal opinion from an English player during an Ashes moment. Lot of different players get this specific comment from ex-players when they are doing amazingly well. 

 

The thing is during the last two decades, when someone has said this is the best guy I have seen .. the immediate comparisons happen with Sachin  and how this guy is better than Sachin .. I don't have to spell out what that means :--D

I remember  few days back they were hyping  cook is better than sachin and ll break sachin runs record and Pakistanis were all jumping  and dancing  like monkeys.  One English  person opinion matter zealch, for them sor andie Murray is greatest ever tennis  player.

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it is really senseless to compare 2 batsmen from different  eras based on their plain  averages. Viv Richards averages only 50.23  scoring only some 8540 runs where as  Sachin himself had a phase  between 29 jan 1993 and 14 apr 2011  where he avg:ed 59.35 after scoring 13534 runs  in 258 inns. Based on pure stats Sachin is way better.  But in one-one comparison polls between these 2 , it is Viv who would gather more votes for various reasons.

 

Just like the above case , in Sachin-Smith  case too lots of factors come into play.   

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1 hour ago, Stradlater said:

Come back when Smith averages almost 60 after 150 matches. 

Even then Smith just falls behind because he aint anywhere close to the technical perfection of Sachin...and then we can just bring in a whole lot of different factors including pitches and bowling quality..

 

I feel Smith survives and scores.. Sachin dominated.. He aint that good to watch either. 

 

If he retires with an average of 75 or something crazy while playing another 8-10 years... I can just pause and ignore his technique and grace.. and just appreciate the numbers..  

Edited by Cricspin

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