Shami is India's best Test bowler, could fit into SA pace attack very well: Fanie de Villiers

[Muloghonto]

32 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

I am talking about Indian perspective. Who cares what South Africans need. Shami didn't not make impact needed with the new ball for us.

Yeah. Nobody did. Because Indian pacers suck and the only one that didn't suck the previous match was dropped. Simple. 

Our best pacer, by far, is a dude who can't take wickets with the new-ball and struggles with fitness or the dude who got dropped. Their best pacer is world #1, their second best pacer is an ATG sitting out the series, third best is in the top-10 and averages 21 at home, 4th best is a guy who Ishant wishes he could be (Morkel) but can't and their newest pacer is showing that he too, is country miles ahead of any Indian pacer. 

Our pop-gun attack, is not adequate, no-matter what bravado our Captain Vitriol or pace-hypers think. 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by Muloghonto

[Rightarmfast]

I think people had this romanticism that the Indian fast bowlers would go to the south africa, ( will not even play one single practise match), start bowling at 100mph and bowl out the entire South African team for 0 runs!

 

Well, from that perspective, the Indian bowlers did perform extremely poor and they deserve to be kicked out.

From a practical perspective, the Indian bowlers have done a fantastic job. 

 

Also, the quality of a bowler is a sum total of his career, atleast thats what Fannie is talking about. He is clearly also telling why Sami is a great bowler, because of the channel he chooses to bowl. Also, the pace at which he bowls. 

 

Just because he had a couple of average matches, doesnt suddenly make him a bad bowler, either from Indian perspective or South African!

[Vk1]

1 hour ago, Rightarmfast said:

I think people had this romanticism that the Indian fast bowlers would go to the south africa, ( will not even play one single practise match), start bowling at 100mph and bowl out the entire South African team for 0 runs!

 

Well, from that perspective, the Indian bowlers did perform extremely poor and they deserve to be kicked out.

From a practical perspective, the Indian bowlers have done a fantastic job. 

 

Also, the quality of a bowler is a sum total of his career, atleast thats what Fannie is talking about. He is clearly also telling why Sami is a great bowler, because of the channel he chooses to bowl. Also, the pace at which he bowls. 

 

Just because he had a couple of average matches, doesnt suddenly make him a bad bowler, either from Indian perspective or South African!

Absolutely. Also it's important that our fast bowlers pick 5 wicket hauls more and more. Last I remember is bhuvi in Kolkata. You cannot keep picking 2 or 3 wickets per inning and win tests. 

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, Rightarmfast said:

I think people had this romanticism that the Indian fast bowlers would go to the south africa, ( will not even play one single practise match), start bowling at 100mph and bowl out the entire South African team for 0 runs!

 

Well, from that perspective, the Indian bowlers did perform extremely poor and they deserve to be kicked out.

From a practical perspective, the Indian bowlers have done a fantastic job. 

 

Also, the quality of a bowler is a sum total of his career, atleast thats what Fannie is talking about. He is clearly also telling why Sami is a great bowler, because of the channel he chooses to bowl. Also, the pace at which he bowls. 

 

Just because he had a couple of average matches, doesnt suddenly make him a bad bowler, either from Indian perspective or South African!

No, they have not. 

In the first innings they conceded about 50-60 runs more than they should've. Though we can blame Dropthiv for his drops that messed it all up. But once the pitch became variable bounce near the end of Indian 1st innings, RSA had no business making more than 160-175 in the 2nd innings.

Same story with the 1st test. Bowlers conceded 50-70 runs more than they should've and they admitted it themselves.

That is the usual fare mediocre job, not 'fantastic job'. Yes, scoreline looks flattering for the bowlers- until you factor in that any good pace attack wouldn't concede more than 200-250 in the first test or more than 150 in the third/4th innings of the last test.

 

[Rightarmfast]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

No, they have not. 

In the first innings they conceded about 50-60 runs more than they should've. Though we can blame Dropthiv for his drops that messed it all up. But once the pitch became variable bounce near the end of Indian 1st innings, RSA had no business making more than 160-175 in the 2nd innings.

Same story with the 1st test. Bowlers conceded 50-70 runs more than they should've and they admitted it themselves.

That is the usual fare mediocre job, not 'fantastic job'. Yes, scoreline looks flattering for the bowlers- until you factor in that any good pace attack wouldn't concede more than 200-250 in the first test or more than 150 in the third/4th innings of the last test.

 

You are getting into rhetorics which has no place. How often and how many bowling sides bundle out teams while visiting? Australian and english and the same south african attack were made to look like cannon fodder when they were in India. Its easier said than done. And you claim to have some knowledge about training. If you do, then you would understand that its one step at a time.

 

The Indian bowlers have mananged to take all 20 wickets while touring ( that too, without conceding too much runs ). This hasnt happened before. Let them be consistent in this. Let them become masters in this. Once they master this technique, then they will slowly learn how to dominate while touring abroad. Btw, not many teams have dominated while touring, in the bowling deptt. Maybe only WI of the past and Aus of 2000. 

Rome was not built in a day, one tiny step at a time.

 

 

[express bowling]

From 2016 onwards, after returning from surgery, Shami has been our best all-condition pacer in test matches.  In this period, he has bowled the off-stump channel line, bowled at 135 k to 147 k, got steep bounce, got seam movement and swing ... and picked up loads of wickets.

 

In this period, he averages 24.7 with a SR of 49.2 from 17 tests  ... world class indeed

 

Career averages

	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
														Profile
filtered	17	33	468.0	100	1407	57	4/49	6/116	24.68	3.00	49.2	0	0

 

 

In this period, he averages 23.3 out of Asia from 6 tests  and 25.4 in Asia from 11 tests   ... so very balanced performance.

 

I had started a thread 5 months ago about the importance of a fit Shami for this SA tour

 

 

 

And the need to manage his workload in FC matches

 

 

 

 

But, it did not happen.  Shami was made to bowl around 40 overs in 4 sessions and a bit by Manoj Tiwary in the Ranji semifinal.  He is not used to this workload and has looked stiff in SA.

 

Has  still taken 9 wickets from 2 rests so far  at an average of 20.2 and SR of 39 .... but lacked intensity in both the first innings.  This could have been avoided by better workload management by the BCCI in the Ranji matches just before the tour.

 

Planning and preparation for the SA tour has been poor all through.

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by express bowling

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

You are getting into rhetorics which has no place. How often and how many bowling sides bundle out teams while visiting? Australian and english and the same south african attack were made to look like cannon fodder when they were in India. Its easier said than done. And you claim to have some knowledge about training. If you do, then you would understand that its one step at a time.

Hello, its all about the pitch. How often does RSA put out a super-fast pitch or variable bounce pitch to the English or the Aussies...

4 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

 

The Indian bowlers have mananged to take all 20 wickets while touring ( that too, without conceding too much runs ). This hasnt happened before. Let them be consistent in this. Let them become masters in this. Once they master this technique, then they will slowly learn how to dominate while touring abroad. Btw, not many teams have dominated while touring, in the bowling deptt. Maybe only WI of the past and Aus of 2000. 

Rome was not built in a day, one tiny step at a time.

 

 

You are acting like this is a bunch of young 22-23 year old attacks, like a raw Mikey Holding and Colin Croft being shepherded by Andy Roberts or something. 

Hello, our bowling attack is near/at its peak. Ashwin is 31 or so. Shami is 28. Bhuvi, Umesh, Ishant are all 27-31. Only Bumrah and Pandya are young and they are not even that promising in this format. 

Our bowling attack is near/at its ceiling, wake up and smell the coffee and as usual, they are not good enough. They will/may improve a bit more, if they don't get injured and regress once they start hitting 30 (which most of them most likely will)

As for dominating with the ball while touring- RSA did it too, so did Pakistan of the 80s-early 2000s. 

[express bowling]

7 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

. How often and how many bowling sides bundle out teams while visiting?

 

 

 

This SA team has 4 top batters in ABDV, Amla, Faf and de Kock and Elgar was in the form of his life.

 

Plus, they are playing in their own country in conditions known to them ....  and yet they are expected to be succumb meekly without a fight ....  I don't know why !

 

SA batted in the best batting conditions in the 2nd test 1st innings where par score was 468 and yet got bundled out for 335, just 27 more than us.  Got dismissed for 130 in the 2nd innings of the 1st test and 258 in the   2nd innings of the 2nd test .   Plus we dropped many more catches than SA.

 

I would say our bowlers dominated SA in 3 out of 4 innings and we would have won if our batters and catchers performed even averagely.

 

Ishant looks like a weaker link though and he is not bowling those wicket taking lines or getting enough zip off the deck. 

[Rightarmfast]

6 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

This SA team has 4 top batters in ABDV, Amla, Faf and de Kock and Elgar was in the form of his life.

 

Plus, they are playing in their own country in conditions known to them ....  and yet they are expected to be succumb meekly without a fight ....  I don't know why !

 

SA batted in the best batting conditions in the 2nd test 1st innings where par score was 468 and yet got bundled out for 335, just 27 more than us.  Got dismissed for 130 in the 2nd innings of the 1st test and 258 in the   2nd innings of the 2nd test .   Plus we dropped many more catches than SA.

 

I would say our bowlers dominated SA in 3 out of 4 innings and we would have won if our batters and catchers performed even averagely.

 

Ishant looks like a weaker link though and he is not bowling those wicket taking lines or getting enough zip off the deck. 

GOLD! Exactly what I have been trying to say!

[Rightarmfast]

19 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Hello, its all about the pitch. How often does RSA put out a super-fast pitch or variable bounce pitch to the English or the Aussies...

You are acting like this is a bunch of young 22-23 year old attacks, like a raw Mikey Holding and Colin Croft being shepherded by Andy Roberts or something. 

Hello, our bowling attack is near/at its peak. Ashwin is 31 or so. Shami is 28. Bhuvi, Umesh, Ishant are all 27-31. Only Bumrah and Pandya are young and they are not even that promising in this format. 

Our bowling attack is near/at its ceiling, wake up and smell the coffee and as usual, they are not good enough. They will/may improve a bit more, if they don't get injured and regress once they start hitting 30 (which most of them most likely will)

As for dominating with the ball while touring- RSA did it too, so did Pakistan of the 80s-early 2000s. 

Lolz, atleast you succeeded in making me laugh! First of all, its not about the age, its about a generation of cricketers and this is a new generation of Indian players. 

You just keep on displaying your ignorance and keep trying to force INdians are poor in bowling. I think your pakistani mindset keeps taking over! its fine...

 

Btw, RSA would have dominated in patches at times. Thats not special. Pakistan, even a smaller patch than RSA. Even less significant.

 

[express bowling]

14 hours ago, Pollack said:

Pretty spot on about Bumrah and Ishant. Like I have been saying Bumrah doesn't bring anything into tests. He just bring the the bowl into the batsman 97% of the time with the same predictable angle. After a few matches batsman would get used to it. And Ishant is well Ishant Sharma . Even this former SAfrican cannot stop taking a dig at him like when was the last time he picked 8-9 wickets.

 

 

Bumrah has picked up 7 wickets in his first 2 tests while playing out of Asia ( plus a few dropped catches ) ... how many Indian pacers have done that ? ( Our pacers have typically been good in Asia and average outside  )

 

Bumrah's stock ball is seaming in from 5th stump, but he is bowling the out-seaming channel delivery once or twice every over.  He beat ABDV 3 or 4 times each  in 2 different innings with such deliveries. They have showcased this time and again on TV.

 

Plus he is bowling with pace and bounce and making the batters play a lot. Bowled lots of snorters from just short of a length and that is typically a wicket-taking ball.

 

He will be an even better wicket-taker once he gets used to playing tests ... because he is a thinking bowler who bowls with intensity.

[Rightarmfast]

Bringing the ball into the batsmen with the same predictable angle is something you do in test cricket. Ask Mcgrath about it. Being predictable! He knows a thing or two! 

And check his record!

[Muloghonto]

30 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Lolz, atleast you succeeded in making me laugh! First of all, its not about the age, its about a generation of cricketers and this is a new generation of Indian players. 

You just keep on displaying your ignorance and keep trying to force INdians are poor in bowling. I think your pakistani mindset keeps taking over! its fine...

 

Btw, RSA would have dominated in patches at times. Thats not special. Pakistan, even a smaller patch than RSA. Even less significant.

 

It is about age, if you wish to see if the generation 'has a lot of potential', 'is peaking', 'close to peaking' or 'over the hill'. 

England for eg, is over the hill. We are peaking/close to peaking. 

Indians *are* poor in bowling, especially overseas. Including the current team. 

As for dominating in patches or not patches, that's rich coming from the fans of a team that's best overseas performance in bowling is usually 'barely managing to keep their heads above water and not make batsmen chase impossible targets', nevermind domination.

 

You wish to look at runs given away without any pitch condition factored in, well that suits your agenda that Indians are 'fine' in their bowling. I need not know any-more than the fact that India needed to score the highest ever 4th innings target to win last test, to know that bowlers have dropped the ball in the last test.

Seeing the match also helped, given that India let RSA score 250+ on a 3rd day pitch that should've resulted in 150 or so. 

[Muloghonto]

23 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Bringing the ball into the batsmen with the same predictable angle is something you do in test cricket. Ask Mcgrath about it. Being predictable! He knows a thing or two! 

And check his record!

McGrath had many micro-variations, which multiple batsmen have said multiple times. Just like Kumble. McGrath didn't bring the ball back in to the righties as his stock delivery. His stock delivery was simply 4th stump line SOGL. With little movement in or out to keep it interesting. 

[Gollum]

@Muloghonto I think you are being very unfair on the present bunch of bowlers. They played the 1st test 5 days after landing in SA and couldn't hit the correct lengths on day 1, otherwise they were pretty good. Had Dhawan held on to the catch off Bhuvi's bowling we may well have restricted them to under 220 in the 1st innings. In the 2nd test, 9 catches were dropped, 4 by the useless Parthiv Patel. You can't find fault with any bowling unit after these many dropped catches. Not only do bowlers lose rhythm and confidence, batsmen like Elgar, Amla and Du Plessis know how to punish such schoolboy errors on their turf. Had Ashwin picked a 7fer in the 1st innings, the mental battle in SA 2nd innings would have been quite different. We would have taken a lead of 80-100 runs and SA aren't exactly a clutch team, but not only did we surrender a sizable lead we again dropped Elgar and Du Plessis. I can't recollect such an inept catching display in all my years of watching cricket, I seriously believe our bowlers have been shown great character to get the 40 wickets in spite of such rotten luck. 

Edited January 21, 2018 by Gollum

[Deleted_User_1]

Not with that fitness. He looks 10 years older than he claims to be. 

[Malcolm Merlyn]

How many did he take with the new ball? the wickets that matter the most in SA. How many you took after  50-60 overs of bowling wouldn't make an iota of difference to the end result.

Really? Now you will decide whether wickets taken after 50 overs is going to make the difference or not. Lol.

Taking wickets with the old ball is an art that few have. Thats the time when other bowlers are not that effective and someone like Shami is brilliant.


The amount of nonsense you sometimes spout on the forum to defend your pre fixed notions makes the lot of good you say less credible.

[rkt.india]

36 minutes ago, Malcolm Merlyn said:

Really? Now you will decide whether wickets taken after 50 overs is going to make the difference or not. Lol.

Taking wickets with the old ball is an art that few have. Thats the time when other bowlers are not that effective and someone like Shami is brilliant.


The amount of nonsense you sometimes spout on the forum to defend your pre fixed notions makes the lot of good you say less credible.

Because in SA, that new ball that counts. You are not playing in India but in SA where if you dont take wickets with new ball, you are doomed and there is no preconceived notion about it. Shami has grand zero wickets with the new ball.  He has wasted the new ball every time he got it. What is prefixed about it?  It is a fact. Fact is not credible for you now? 

 

Fanboyism is a part of sport and here too we have many, but I am not part of that herd.  Shami has been one of my favorites since his Duleep trophy in 2010-11, but it does not mean, I will spare him and comment all goody, goody. 

Edited January 22, 2018 by rkt.india

[Malcolm Merlyn]

Because in SA, that new ball that counts. You are not playing in India but in SA where if you dont take wickets with new ball, you are doomed and there is no preconceived notion about it. Shami has grand zero wickets with the new ball.  He has wasted the new ball every time he got it. What is prefixed about it?  It is a fact. Fact is not credible for you now? 

Thats your assumption not a fact. Wickets count and esp for a team with deep bating like SA wickets have to be taken with tge old ball.

Pre fixed is your notion to target shami hence the strange reasoning of wickets taken in 40th or 50th over not being useful.

Fact is that Shami is the highest wicket taker for India. Your trying to discredit him with a loadful of nonsense made up of self made cherry picked cricteria is a travesty.

[vishalvirsingh]

we know about this fact that if Shammi and bumrah and/or umesh are in form and rhythm we definitely can win the test as all these three bowlers are as good as African fast bowlers but is shammi in full rhythm and Is he 100 % fit?

 

i have seen him running in a test match at a test match- he runs seamlessly like a speeding car and his skidding balls look faster thhan what he balls. He is no way less than markel...may be rabada could be better than shammi but still shammi is cool. Hope he runs in well.

 

where as bhuvi bowls quite full and looks to bowl full quite a lot so he never looks too fast.