Saha likely to be preferred over Pant for the 1st Test vs SA

[Moochad]

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Edited October 2, 2019 by Moochad

[ShoonyaSifar]

32 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

reading comprehension failure  example #1

logic fail #1:  Strawman fallacy- attacking an argument someone else didn't make

 

I have stated multiple times Pant is a better batsman than Saha.

The only argument to play Saha comes down to his superiority in keeping providing more value. 

 

Me: Pant is a superior batsman

Fanboy: Wrong! Pant is actually 1.5 times the batsman Saha is 

 

Kaha se aate hai ye log 

Fanboy reading comprehension failure  example #2

Fanboy logic fail #2:  Strawman fallacy- attacking an argument someone else didn't make

 

I  never made an argument about who is a bigger match-winner. The argument was Saha could provide more value to the side for the upcoming series, and thereby help wins. Neither Saha nor Pant are match-winners. (Although Pant could possibly be one in the future).

 

Pant fanboys apparently throw that word around very loosely, just like claims of "once in a lifetime talent who accomplished more than Dravid"

 

reading comprehension failure  example #3

 

Instead the fanboy actually addressing the post which demolished the argument the fanboy itself made, the fanboy randomly attacks a post which doesn't relate to anything he said. The fanboy later confuses its lack of reading comprehension and integrity as some sort of goalpost shift. 

 

Of course, anyone with a functional level of literacy would notice that that post wasn't directed to any conversation in this thread, it expounded upon my original post, from my first post of the thread, which is below. 

 

Off course, it's funny that the fanboy avoids addressing the post, literally one post earlier than the one it quoted, which demolished its nonsense arguments.  The fanboy apparently has no actual reply, so instead it tries to display logic(and reading comprehension) skills it doesn't possess. 

 

 

 

General stupidity example #1

 

When part of the argument is that Saha is a superior keeper, and thus the team management will consider his selection, it is perfectly reasonable to quote numerous current and former players who are experts in the field on their opinions on keeping. From Kohli to Ganguly all have stated that Saha is one of the best keepers in the world. 

 

Of course, this same fanboy, so deficient in cricketing knowledge, made the claim below.

Someone who expects to be taken seriously actually claimed that Saha has an embarrassingly poor record as a keeper.

You can't make this stuff up 

 

All those current and ex-cricketers are obviously wrong about Saha's keeping ability. 

 

Logic fail #3

Wrongly claiming a shifting of goalposts

 

This fanboy's failure to read simple English, invention of strawmen, and avoidance of the post that demolished all of their arguments do not equal me shifting goalposts.  

 

3 examples of poor reading comprehension, 3 examples of poor logic, and 1 generally stupid comment. Congrats on making a truly terrible post 

 

 

 

 

 

That makes it 3 garbage posts running into dozens and dozens of lines interspersed with personal innuendos and calling names. Hopefully those posts have made you feel better in your utterly miserable life.

 

I should have have known better. Wrestling with pigs and all that...

Edited October 1, 2019 by ShoonyaSifar

[Ankit_sharma03]

Lets see how many games before they Drop Saha now considering how quickly they loose patience 

 

[Tibarn]

15 hours ago, Moochad said:

All else being equal that is certainly true. We don't need as much batting from the keeper position at home. I also understand that your saying that both keepers deserve consideration. I am solidly in favor of Pant only over Saha.

 

The argument against I would make here against Saha and for Pant is that because our difference and run balance is so large at home, that should encourage us to play Pant.

 

Here is why: according to your stats, even without a batting contribution from the keeper, our team would score 350+ on average. A keeper with a mediocre batting average like Saha takes it to 380+

 

In this situation, with no pressure, even with repeated failyres we score over 350, it would be the best time to develop a player like PAnt. He would be able work om his game freely  without any pressure b/c the team's performance wouldnt be dependant on him. This would help him find himself for overseas tours where he could be asked to carry a bigger load.

 

You see, I could actually go along with that argument, since anyway, as I stated, I am neutral to who plays between the two. I simply don't think it is  ridiculous for Saha to be chosen over Pant for the series. 

 

One problem with that argument is that one could just as easily apply it to other young players as well. That isn't an argument for Pant in particular, rather one for a general preference for young players. If a Gill was selected over Rohit the argument is even more sound IMO. Gill has yet to debut and a home series like this, where other players can carry the weight is a good time for him. This is doubly true as we don't have an established opener as of now at either spot.   

 

Non-rhetorical question I am posing to you: If you had to choose one young player to play this series, which one would it be. Rather than a batsman, I would probably favor trying a new fast bowler in place of Umesh or Ishant.  

 

You however do make the best argument for Pant playing at home this series. There is no pressure, so he can develop while everyone else does the heavy lifting. 

 

However, I think the fact that this series is part of the Test Championship is the reason why Saha was getting an added push for selection. Clearly Kohli views Saha as giving India the best chance of winning at home, particularly with his elite keeping to spinners. I am guessing that the next home series which isn't part of the Test Championship, will encourage Kohli to experiment more and Pant will probably make a return.  Of course I could be wrong. 

 

However, I am not one for conspiracy theories on Kohli and Shastri. I think Kohli has proven to be a mediocre LOI captain, but I don't really see much he has done wrong in the Test format. His selection and trying of new combinations of bowlers has been refreshing in comparison to when MSD was captain. 

 

Quote

The most polite way of seeing someone say buzz off I have seen on this forum

It is ICF's misfortune that there are so many fanboys dragging down in the quality of the forum.  

 

I would be lying if I said I didn't enjoy it a little bit with Kohli giving these guys the finger today by saying Saha will play  Hopefully Pant isn't as mentally fragile as his fanboys project him to be and themselves are. 

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Tibarn
Swachh Bharat

[Tibarn]

Quote

That makes it 3 garbage posts running into dozens and dozens of lines interspersed with personal innuendos and calling names. Hopefully those posts have made you feel better in your utterly miserable life.

 

I should have have known better. Wrestling with pigs and all that...

Thanks, pigs are wonderful animals.  They are several tiers above Pant fanboys in terms of logic and reading comprehension. 

 

This guy maliciously misrepresents what people actually say in a failed attempt to be condescending, and now plays victim. 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Tibarn

[Moochad]

18 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

You see, I could actually go along with that argument, since anyway, as I stated, I am neutral to who plays between the two. I simply don't think it is  ridiculous for Saha to be chosen over Pant for the series. 

 

So you're saying Pant should be dropped and fed to tigers?

Quote

One problem with that argument is that one could just as easily apply it to other young players as well. That isn't an argument for Pant in particular, rather one for a general preference for young players. If a Gill was selected over Rohit the argument is even more sound IMO. Gill has yet to debut and a home series like this, where other players can carry the weight is a good time for him. This is doubly true as we don't have an established opener as of now at either spot.  

Non-rhetorical question I am posing to you: If you had to choose one young player to play this series, which one would it be. Rather than a batsman, I would probably favor trying a new fast bowler in place of Umesh or Ishant.  

 

For your question, I agree with having a new fast bowler, but I think we can do both a fast bowler and a young batsman(Pant)

I think we should go with a full blown youth movement on all undecided spots.

Gill for opener

Pant for keeper

A young pacer bowler to pair with Shami.

Quote

You however do make the best argument for Pant playing at home this series. There is no pressure, so he can develop while everyone else does the heavy lifting. 

Another argument for Pant is that what better place to work on his keeping than in India with Ash and Jaddu. I don't

Quote

However, I think the fact that this series is part of the Test Championship is the reason why Saha was getting an added push for selection. Clearly Kohli views Saha as giving India the best chance of winning at home, particularly with his elite keeping to spinners. I am guessing that the next home series which isn't part of the Test Championship, will encourage Kohli to experiment more and Pant will probably make a return.  Of course I could be wrong. 

 

However, I am not one for conspiracy theories on Kohli and Shastri. I think Kohli has proven to be a mediocre LOI captain, but I don't really see much he has done wrong in the Test format. His selection and trying of new combinations of bowlers has been refreshing in comparison to when MSD was captain. 

You are far more optimistic for Kohli's captaincy than me. I think Pant will return the moment Saha fails, or even drops a catch. In my opinion he chops and changes players too much.

 

[LordPrabhzy]

oh JHEEZ! These morons need professional mental help

[Tibarn]

27 minutes ago, Moochad said:

So you're saying Pant should be dropped and fed to tigers?

Yes, Pant is Maryada Purushottam, he is being sent to exile for 14 years by his jealous Step-Mother Kaikeyi (Shastri)'s schemes tricking his father Dashrath (Kohli) to exile him. (Or maybe Kohli is Kaikeyi and Shastri is Dashrath). Either way, the true heir to the throne, Pant, is being exiled so the high character, but not the best qualified brother Bharat (Saha) can take the throne. Saha will place Pant's Keeping gloves on a pedestal for 14 years while waiting for his return. 

 

38 minutes ago, Moochad said:

You are far more optimistic for Kohli's captaincy than me. I think Pant will return the moment Saha fails, or even drops a catch. In my opinion he chops and changes players too much.

I think people conflate formats. His poor captaincy in LOIs shouldn't jaundice people's views on his Test captaincy. Like any new captain he took his lumps and experimented with new combos early on, but he has always been willing to change depending on the situation and demands in Tests. 

 

40 minutes ago, Moochad said:

Another argument for Pant is that what better place to work on his keeping than in India with Ash and Jaddu.

I think this is fair, at the same time. One can also get better by playing Ranji, which Pant does, and by practicing on one's own. 

 

IIRC, Sunny Gavaskar developed his elite defense by practicing keeping a vertical bat by batting next to a wall. Anytime his bat would graze the wall when playing a shot, he would count it as out. He didn't have one of the best defenses for an opener only because he got to play in matches. 

Even Kohli, who had a weakness to the short ball which was exposed during his first series in Windies didn't suddenly become good playing short deliveries because the team persisted with him. He practiced on his own. 

 

There is a truism, "Practice makes perfect", and it is true. There is more time outside of a match to get better than in one. Pant doesn't need to play in every match in every series to get better.  

 

47 minutes ago, Moochad said:

For your question, I agree with having a new fast bowler, but I think we can do both a fast bowler and a young batsman(Pant)

I think we should go with a full blown youth movement on all undecided spots.

Gill for opener

Pant for keeper

A young pacer bowler to pair with Shami.

You missed Pandya. These types of series are where our project Allrounder could also be developed. Unfortunately he got injured recently. 

 

 

[Vilander]

guys expect raging spinners and Ashwin/Jadeja manhandling SA in those..its decided..revenge time on hapless SA for the tracks they gave..

[sscomp32]

3 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Lets see how many games before they Drop Saha now considering how quickly they loose patience 

 

There is a trend. You can easily predict who is going to be dropped:) 

Just look for the player who is being praised more. He is the next one to be dropped. 

Its not about losing patience. Its about "MYWAY OR THE HIGHWAY". 

And since the bowlers are saving us 90% of time, this aspect doesn't get exposed. 

When it does get exposed, WC Semifinal happens:) 

[Ankit_sharma03]

Just now, sscomp32 said:

There is a trend. You can easily predict who is going to be dropped:) 

Just look for the player who is being praised more. He is the next one to be dropped. 

Its not about losing patience. Its about "MYWAY OR THE HIGHWAY". 

And since the bowlers are saving us 90% of time, this aspect doesn't get exposed. 

When it does get exposed, WC Semifinal happens:) 

its about loosing patience only.....for kohli it doesnt take long to loose specially when their are options . 

A huge reason he has shown patience with someone like hardik is coz he lacks options on that front or else hardik wud have had similar treatment. 

After few failures media n public go mental n start to blabber , kohli cant take that pressure also hence he changes. Rohit sharma being made to open is a prime example of that  . 

 

There is a reason u dnt see youngsters doing well in IPL or coming through RCB .......

[raki05]

Jeez,people writing essay to defend Kohli just like my product manager writes RFP and I hardly ever read those...... however going by Kohli mindset would not be surprised if he drops Saha and bring in Pant after one failure.

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 minute ago, raki05 said:

Jeez,people writing essay to defend Kohli just like my product manager writes RFP and I hardly ever read those...... however going by Kohli mindset would not be surprised if he drops Saha and bring in Pant after one failure.

yup if saha fails in 1-2 test....they ll discard him to which will also be wrong

Pick any player back him. 

[raki05]

7 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

yup if saha fails in 1-2 test....they ll discard him to which will also be wrong

Pick any player back him. 

True Saha is best keeper no doubt about it....but the way this whole scenario pops out is utter pathetic.

[Tibarn]

Jeez, imagine criticizing for "writing essays to defend Kohli" when the content of those "essays" have next to nothing to do with Kohli  

Edited October 1, 2019 by Tibarn

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 hours ago, Vilander said:

guys expect raging spinners and Ashwin/Jadeja manhandling SA in those..its decided..revenge time on hapless SA for the tracks they gave..

I hope thats not the case....rank turners can make avg spinner tough to face....its like giving trundles or dibbly dobbly bowlers an green mamba 

 

Clarke in mumbai took 6 wkt haul in 2004

I think last time when Sa came Elgar troubled us in one the games.

 

 

[Vilander]

2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

I hope thats not the case....rank turners can make avg spinner tough to face....its like giving trundles or dibbly dobbly bowlers an green mamba 

 

Clarke in mumbai took 6 wkt haul in 2004

I think last time when Sa came Elgar troubled us in one the games.

 

 

i can not explain to myself as a rational person the phenom TM move of Saha in place Pant otherwise.

 

I am going to clutch to every straw and call a spinning track first test. 

[Moochad]

6 hours ago, Tibarn said:

Yes, Pant is Maryada Purushottam, he is being sent to exile for 14 years by his jealous Step-Mother Kaikeyi (Shastri)'s schemes tricking his father Dashrath (Kohli) to exile him. (Or maybe Kohli is Kaikeyi and Shastri is Dashrath). Either way, the true heir to the throne, Pant, is being exiled so the high character, but not the best qualified brother Bharat (Saha) can take the throne. Saha will place Pant's Keeping gloves on a pedestal for 14 years while waiting for his return.

Judging by the forum's mood, if Pant is exiled for 14 years, half the posters will cheer for Pakistan.

[Moochad]

6 hours ago, Tibarn said:

I think people conflate formats. His poor captaincy in LOIs shouldn't jaundice people's views on his Test captaincy. Like any new captain he took his lumps and experimented with new combos early on, but he has always been willing to change depending on the situation and demands in Tests. 

 

People have some of the same complaints for all the formats. He chops and changes.

6 hours ago, Tibarn said:

I think this is fair, at the same time. One can also get better by playing Ranji, which Pant does, and by practicing on one's own. 

 

IIRC, Sunny Gavaskar developed his elite defense by practicing keeping a vertical bat by batting next to a wall. Anytime his bat would graze the wall when playing a shot, he would count it as out. He didn't have one of the best defenses for an opener only because he got to play in matches. 

Even Kohli, who had a weakness to the short ball which was exposed during his first series in Windies didn't suddenly become good playing short deliveries because the team persisted with him. He practiced on his own. 

 

There is a truism, "Practice makes perfect", and it is true. There is more time outside of a match to get better than in one. Pant doesn't need to play in every match in every series to get better.  

The problem with that is how much does Pant gain from being selected if he doesn't play. If he is carrying drinks for Team India than what exerpeicen could he possibly get? It is better to release him into the domestics so he can get time on the pitch there. Carrying drinks doesn't help him or the team in the short or long run.

6 hours ago, Tibarn said:

You missed Pandya. These types of series are where our project Allrounder could also be developed. Unfortunately he got injured recently. 

Pandya has to compete with Vihari now. If Pandya doesn't bowl a decent quota of overs, I think Vihari should be preferred.

 

 

 

[Tibarn]

 

2 hours ago, Moochad said:

People have some of the same complaints for all the formats. He chops and changes.

He literally tells you he plans to play horses for courses in batting and bowling. What do you expect? Most of the spots in the team are up for competition under him. 

 

 

It is apparently not realistic that some players have to earn spots in a playing XI and have to perform to keep the spot. In pretty much any team sport, from the NFL to NBA, young players are required to earn their chances for playing time whether at practice or when they get a chance in actual games. In baseball young players regularly move between the minor leagues and the major. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Moochad said:

The problem with that is how much does Pant gain from being selected if he doesn't play. If he is carrying drinks for Team India than what exerpeicen could he possibly get? It is better to release him into the domestics so he can get time on the pitch there. Carrying drinks doesn't help him or the team in the short or long run.

I agree. Release Pant to play domestics. There is no reason to have 2 keepers in the side for a domestic series. 

2 hours ago, Moochad said:

Pandya has to compete with Vihari now. If Pandya doesn't bowl a decent quota of overs, I think Vihari should be preferred.

Agree, currently Vihari has the edge

Edited October 2, 2019 by Tibarn
Swachh Bharat