Would Kapil Dev make it into the current Indian bowling line up as a strike bowler?

[rtmohanlal]

17 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

He would still be no.1 as far as I'm concerned, we haven't seen Bumrah bowl on the really testing & unforgiving pitches, which Kapil regularly encountered abroad & even in India, I'm not even counting the huge disadvantage of playing against home umpires back in the day, especially in Pak. Kapil would easily avg somewhere close to 25 in this era, with a much better Indian team & mediocre batting lineups everywhere else! Did I mention DRS, my bad 

yes... definitely at least 2nd behind Bumrah , if not first.Kapil played his first 62 tests in just 5 years & 5 months  and picked 247 wkts at 27.7 avg:  with  the pathetic set of bowlers to support him. 

[Deleted_User_1]

Kapil played in an era when Indian pace bowling was matter of derision and laughter. Heck, we had bowlers like Dollar, Abid Ali, Ghavri and Jimmy Amarnath with their less than military medium stuff. Sometimes Gavaskar would bowl a few to get some shine off the ball and throw it to the spinners. So in that respect he was a trendsetter and head and shoulders above any contemporary Indian pace bowlers from late 70s to late 80s.

 

 If he grew up in this modern era, I am certain he would have been quicker. In that respect, it is hard to compare players from different eras. Like Bradman was way ahead in his time. When we look at his footage, his batting looks amateurish because quality of bowling was not great by modern standards. But if he grew up playing in the modern era, he still would have been successful not with the 30s technique, but with modern technique of batting which he would have been exposed to.

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Audiophile

[ShoonyaSifar]

2 hours ago, Audiophile said:

Kapil played in an era when Indian pace bowling was matter of derision and laughter. Heck, we had bowlers like Dollar, Abid Ali, Ghavri and Jimmy Amarnath with their less than military medium stuff. Sometimes Gavaskar would bowl a few to get some shine off the ball and throw it to the spinners. So in that respect he was a trendsetter and head and shoulders above any contemporary Indian pace bowlers from late 70s to late 80s.

 

 If he grew up in this modern era, I am certain he would have been quicker. In that respect, it is hard to compare players from different eras. Like Bradman was way ahead in his time. When we look at his footage, his batting looks amateurish because quality of bowling was not great by modern standards. But if he grew up playing in the modern era, he still would have been successful not with the 30s technique, but with modern technique of batting which he would have been exposed to.

 

Nothing matters. He did not bowl 140+, he was not good enough. 

[putrevus]

10 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Kapil averages 29 plus, not 27 in an era where plenty bowlers were averaged early 20s.

I know that, his avg was 28 when he reached 250 wickets. This he got without any reverse swing and on a very weak team where he had no support.

 

When Shami/Bumrah and any other fast bowler from India reach 250 wickets under 28 we can revisit the topic.

[putrevus]

5 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Yes, but that doesn't make him shoe in currently. What he did in 80s has no bearing on today.

Why do you think he will avg same with current team??He is better new ball bowler than any of the current lot and has ability to take 5fers.With reverse swing he would be effective with old ball too.Kapil is better than all others other than Bumrah.But Bumrah's sample size is just too small to even have a conversation.To be called great you need to have some body of work. 

 

Didn't we see what Shami/Umesh/Ishant did when bowling on flat Australian pitches in 2014 when Steve Smith was scoring 100s for fun.Kapil never got support at home either ,80s had the worst spinners in history of Indian cricket.

[prudent_kreeda]

4 hours ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Nothing matters. He did not bowl 140+, he was not good enough. 

    He was a tremendous new ball swing bowler . Certainly very good in his first 4-5 years . 

     Nowadays  batsmen face up to pace much better than earlier , it is the swing which is the issue with almost all top batsmen of current era. 

     Seems too much obsession with PACE in ICF . What matters is skill set to get wickets rather than just pace . 

     Good pace with great control over swing /seam is the best combo for a  very successful career. One can check records of all past masters who took record number of wickets . May be they were out & out pacers only for 3-4 years at the most

[vvvslaxman]

There was a time Ishant was being butt off all jokes here lol Suddenly he is better than Kapil dev omg.  This Indian team is not "perfrect bowling line up".  We are struggling to take tailender wickets time after time. Infact we lost a test series in England because of that. In the last couple of years worst bowling by a team against tailenders has been India. Let us try to get some perspective.

[Ankit_sharma03]

15 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

There was a time Ishant was being butt off all jokes here lol Suddenly he is better than Kapil dev omg.  This Indian team is not "perfrect bowling line up".  We are struggling to take tailender wickets time after time. Infact we lost a test series in England because of that. In the last couple of years worst bowling by a team against tailenders has been India. Let us try to get some perspective.

curran , woakes, broad, ali, rashid they arent exactly tail enders.....they have batting ability 

[maniac]

I know there has been some confusion with the OP and it is my fault I may have not phrased this properly so will try to kind of elaborate.

 

Firstly, not talking about Kapil the total package because we live in an era of guys like Dube and Pandya getting a free ride in the side. So when we have a guy who is a frontline bowler capable of batting in the Top 5 it is a no brainer. That is not even debatable that Kapil would be the first name even above Sachin,Sunny and Dhoni in our all time X1. 

 

However the premise of this thread was let us say Kapil Dev was in domestics right now and his batting capability has not yet been discovered,would he make it to the international side as a bowler in our current era?

 

Our domestic standouts have been guys like Mithun,Vinay Kumar,Pankaj Singh,Joginder Sharma etc over the years and I don't mean this as a disrespect to Kapil but they bowl at the same pace and sure,Kapil is a million times more skilful than these guys in terms of cricketing ability and mental strength but how would those skills stand out in the current era to catch the eye of the selectors and captain?

 

Next obvious option would be to standout in the IPL. No doubt Kapil the total package would be a standout in the IPL and a franchise player. However again going back to the premise of this thread, would his bowling standout in the IPL,with those pitches,boundaries,hitting techniques and bats in the current era? I am sure he would tonk a few 100's against the opposition trundlers himself but going back to only Kapil the bowler would he standout in IPL?

 

Let us look at our bowler's who are in the scheme of things

Bumrah- 145+ might have done well in domestics but IPL fastened his entry to the Indian team

Shami and Umesh- 140+ bowlers- Both bad in the T20 format but especially in the case with Umesh he stood out when he was bowling fast 150+ in the IPL especially more than any credible performance his shortball to either Dilshan or AB (can't recollect) brought him a lot of eyeballs. Shami on the other hand is a 140+ bowler too.  the question is man to man as a pure bowler who is better?

Ishant- Broke in to scene with his pace and bounce and identified as a prospect at u-19 level

Bhuvi- Well one of those bowlers who was brought in on skill and had to improve his pace to be in the scheme of things.

 

All bowlers who are in the 135-140 range and apparently have skill for limited overs are all on the fringe- Guys like Chahar,Khaleel(who is a left armer), Kaul,Thakur etc. No one is a a frontline bowler among this group.

 

The others waiting for a shot like Mavi,Nagarkoti,Prasidh,Saini are all apparently 145+ bowlers.

 

So in these pool would it be easy for Kapil the bowler to standout and make it as a frontline bowler across all formats in the Indian team?

 

That was the question.

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

Maniac, Ishant was bowling at 130kph most of the time during this golden run especially in 2nd spell and after. If we seriously believe "speed is the only difference" then we are not reading it right. Bumrah's wicket taking ability was more than just speed. Same with Shami. They set up the batsman nicely which Kapil dev was very good at. If only raw pace gets you wickets Tino best would be an ATG by now. 

[maniac]

Just now, vvvslaxman said:

Maniac, Ishant was bowling at 130kph most of the time during this golden run especially in 2nd spell and after. If we seriously believe "speed is the only difference" then we are not reading it right. Bumrah's wicket taking ability was more than just speed. Same with Shami. They set up the batsman nicely which Kapil dev was very good at. If only raw pace gets you wickets Tino best would be an ATG by now. 

I agree. I am not saying if Kapil would deserve a shot or not, or will be successful or not, my question has to do with how easy or difficult would it be for a young Kapil of 1979 to break into the Indian squad as a bowler. The only 2 ways as I said would be either pace or perform in the IPL.

 

While Kapil would be tailor made for the T20 format as an allrounder, will his bowling be eye-catching enough in the IPL and would he standout as much as he did in 1979 with the current crop of talent available.

[maniac]

23 minutes ago, Cricspin said:

@OP, do you atleast want to give Kapil the bowler preparation and growth time in current climate or are you saying just pick him as is and time travel  30 years to see if he can play the current scenario..

 

If you give him prep time for exposure, training etc.. then yes, he will make it.. If you just catch him from 1985 and teleport/time travel to 2019.. then probably no.. 

 

Edit - A young Kapil of 1979 with modern coaching, diet, exposure and training will be even a better version of himself and cruise through these medium talent, high on training guys.

 

There are some people who have the gift to do it, some just go through the routine and grill to achieve moderate success...Kapil was not an average cricketer for his era, he would not be one growing up now.. He had it in him..

 

There are things that people who grew up during late 80's and 90's see today and think what more they could have achieved with the modern facilities and cash. this is not cricket but every aspect of life. Lot of todays young guys just have things at their disposal and also have direction and mentoring v/s guys of previous era did things themselves mostly and found their targets... there was more self and less environment..

Fair enough

Edited October 31, 2019 by maniac

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, maniac said:

I know there has been some confusion with the OP and it is my fault I may have not phrased this properly so will try to kind of elaborate.

 

Firstly, not talking about Kapil the total package because we live in an era of guys like Dube and Pandya getting a free ride in the side. So when we have a guy who is a frontline bowler capable of batting in the Top 5 it is a no brainer. That is not even debatable that Kapil would be the first name even above Sachin,Sunny and Dhoni in our all time X1. 

 

However the premise of this thread was let us say Kapil Dev was in domestics right now and his batting capability has not yet been discovered,would he make it to the international side as a bowler in our current era?

 

Our domestic standouts have been guys like Mithun,Vinay Kumar,Pankaj Singh,Joginder Sharma etc over the years and I don't mean this as a disrespect to Kapil but they bowl at the same pace and sure,Kapil is a million times more skilful than these guys in terms of cricketing ability and mental strength but how would those skills stand out in the current era to catch the eye of the selectors and captain?

 

Next obvious option would be to standout in the IPL. No doubt Kapil the total package would be a standout in the IPL and a franchise player. However again going back to the premise of this thread, would his bowling standout in the IPL,with those pitches,boundaries,hitting techniques and bats in the current era? I am sure he would tonk a few 100's against the opposition trundlers himself but going back to only Kapil the bowler would he standout in IPL?

 

Let us look at our bowler's who are in the scheme of things

Bumrah- 145+ might have done well in domestics but IPL fastened his entry to the Indian team

Shami and Umesh- 140+ bowlers- Both bad in the T20 format but especially in the case with Umesh he stood out when he was bowling fast 150+ in the IPL especially more than any credible performance his shortball to either Dilshan or AB (can't recollect) brought him a lot of eyeballs. Shami on the other hand is a 140+ bowler too.  the question is man to man as a pure bowler who is better?

Ishant- Broke in to scene with his pace and bounce and identified as a prospect at u-19 level

Bhuvi- Well one of those bowlers who was brought in on skill and had to improve his pace to be in the scheme of things.

 

All bowlers who are in the 135-140 range and apparently have skill for limited overs are all on the fringe- Guys like Chahar,Khaleel(who is a left armer), Kaul,Thakur etc. No one is a a frontline bowler among this group.

 

The others waiting for a shot like Mavi,Nagarkoti,Prasidh,Saini are all apparently 145+ bowlers.

 

So in these pool would it be easy for Kapil the bowler to standout and make it as a frontline bowler across all formats in the Indian team?

 

That was the question.

 

 

You are making as if Kapil was a trundler, Kapil was not a trundler .Why do you think Shami is faster than Kapil?

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, maniac said:

I know there has been some confusion with the OP and it is my fault I may have not phrased this properly so will try to kind of elaborate.

 

Firstly, not talking about Kapil the total package because we live in an era of guys like Dube and Pandya getting a free ride in the side. So when we have a guy who is a frontline bowler capable of batting in the Top 5 it is a no brainer. That is not even debatable that Kapil would be the first name even above Sachin,Sunny and Dhoni in our all time X1. 

 

However the premise of this thread was let us say Kapil Dev was in domestics right now and his batting capability has not yet been discovered,would he make it to the international side as a bowler in our current era?

 

Our domestic standouts have been guys like Mithun,Vinay Kumar,Pankaj Singh,Joginder Sharma etc over the years and I don't mean this as a disrespect to Kapil but they bowl at the same pace and sure,Kapil is a million times more skilful than these guys in terms of cricketing ability and mental strength but how would those skills stand out in the current era to catch the eye of the selectors and captain?

 

Next obvious option would be to standout in the IPL. No doubt Kapil the total package would be a standout in the IPL and a franchise player. However again going back to the premise of this thread, would his bowling standout in the IPL,with those pitches,boundaries,hitting techniques and bats in the current era? I am sure he would tonk a few 100's against the opposition trundlers himself but going back to only Kapil the bowler would he standout in IPL?

 

Let us look at our bowler's who are in the scheme of things

Bumrah- 145+ might have done well in domestics but IPL fastened his entry to the Indian team

Shami and Umesh- 140+ bowlers- Both bad in the T20 format but especially in the case with Umesh he stood out when he was bowling fast 150+ in the IPL especially more than any credible performance his shortball to either Dilshan or AB (can't recollect) brought him a lot of eyeballs. Shami on the other hand is a 140+ bowler too.  the question is man to man as a pure bowler who is better?

Ishant- Broke in to scene with his pace and bounce and identified as a prospect at u-19 level

Bhuvi- Well one of those bowlers who was brought in on skill and had to improve his pace to be in the scheme of things.

 

All bowlers who are in the 135-140 range and apparently have skill for limited overs are all on the fringe- Guys like Chahar,Khaleel(who is a left armer), Kaul,Thakur etc. No one is a a frontline bowler among this group.

 

The others waiting for a shot like Mavi,Nagarkoti,Prasidh,Saini are all apparently 145+ bowlers.

 

So in these pool would it be easy for Kapil the bowler to standout and make it as a frontline bowler across all formats in the Indian team?

 

That was the question.

 

 

 

If Kapil started his career after 2013  then his bowling would have been different from what it was in his 1978 to 1984 heydays.

 

In those days we did not even have a medium pace bowling culture in India, let alone a fast bowling culture. The collective knowledge about fast bowling and fitness maintenance for fast bowling was very low in India in the 1970s when Kapil developed as a pacer.

 

When a person can develop into a proper fast-medium bowler in such a scenario ... just imagine the talent he had to be a pace bowler.

 

In the mid 2010s or later, Kapil would have had a lot of external support to be a quick bowler. This includes proper bowling coaches at various levels and infrastructure needed to train as a quick bowler. This means he would have access to way more knowledge on how to become a quick bowler and how to maintain the fitness required to bowl quickly spell after spell and the infrastructure and diet needed to implement that knowledge.  

 

In such a scenario, I expect Kapil to have developed into a proper fast bowler in this era while retaining most of his skills and having a few extra ones like the stump directed quick ball , the rising short of length ball ( ability to use it more frequently than he did ) and reverse swing.

 

Kapil, after his knee operation, cut down on his pace. And he focused on prolonging his career at the cost of reducing quality while trying to eliminate any completion as our top seamer while he was the captain.  I don't think any of this would be possible in this era either. 

 

In a nutshell  ... Kapil, if he started his career in the 2010s, would probably have been a quick bowler who could swing the ball too. And he would have played lesser tests as he could not prolong his career by reducing pace and eliminating competition. And I think he would have been a better bowler than his 1978 to 1984 heydays because of the added skills that I expect him to have ( mentioned above ) and better pace bowling support from the other end.

 

And this means it is unlikely that he would have any problems getting in our team of today.

Edited October 31, 2019 by express bowling

[vvvslaxman]

Till date I am yet to see a bowler who is as accurate as kapil as good a control he had. short and wide sharma was garbage most of his career.  I want to see these guys bowl to a proper quality batsman.  Not D grade teams.

Look at that for a record. vs Windies when Greenidge, haynes, RIchards played this is Kapil against ATG team. Look at the average, strike rate. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kruiser]

Kapil ka aaj bhi koi jawaab nahin! 

[MechEng]

17 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

True only for Ishant and Umesh of the last 2 years.

 

Bumrah usually bowls lots of deliveries in the 140 k to 146 k range and some deliveries in the 147 k to 150 k range in his quicker spells.

 

Shami almost always bowls lots of deliveries in the 140 k to 146 k range, especially 2016 onwards.

 

Umesh of 2011 to mid 2017 was always 135 k to 148 k range and touched or crossed 150 k on good days.

Bumrah rarely bowled in 140s when he was sending stumps flying in West Indies, the only time I saw him bowling consistently in 140s was in Australia.

 

Along with brisky pace Bumrah's chief weapon is banana swing like Waqar Younis, he does not need to bowl like Shoaib Akhtar.

[Deleted_User_1]

14 hours ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Nothing matters. He did not bowl 140+, he was not good enough. 

You obviously did not understand what I was trying to say. Kapil Dev was a extremely fit athlete. The reason he did not bowl 140+ because there was no MRF pace academy or culture of bowling fast. Given how shambolic our fast bowling was, he was a diamond in the rough. If we grew up now, his talent combined with better grooming would have made him bowl much faster. 

 

Have you seen Kapil Dev at his peak? I have ... on multiple occasions and live. Even with his limited pace, he had enough skills to get wickets on Indian patches. Indian wickets in the late 70s and 80s were pattas for pace bowling and the outfield was so rough that the ball lost its shine almost immediately. That is how the reverse swing came into play for the Pak bowlers (along with generous help from bottle caps). But it was not an art known worldwide back then. In fact, the rough nature of the outfield was the reason players did not dive or slide because it would rip the skin of their bones. One of main reasons, Indians were poor outfielders back then. In fact, the first I remember an Indian player sliding in the outlfield was Bewda during the Aus tour in 1985-86.

[MechEng]

3 minutes ago, Audiophile said:

You obviously did not understand what I was trying to say. Kapil Dev was a extremely fit athlete. The reason he did not bowl 140+ because there was no MRF pace academy or culture of bowling fast. Given how shambolic our fast bowling was, he was a diamond in the rough. If we grew up now, his talent combined with better grooming would have made him bowl much faster. 

 

Have you seen Kapil Dev at his peak? I have ... on multiple occasions and live. Even with his limited pace, he had enough skills to get wickets on Indian patches. Indian wickets in the late 70s and 80s were pattas for pace bowling and the outfield was so rough that the ball lost its shine almost immediately. That is how the reverse swing came into play for the Pak bowlers (along with generous help from bottle caps). But it was not an art known worldwide back then. In fact, the rough nature of the outfield was the reason players did not dive or slide because it would rip the skin of their bones. One of main reasons, Indians were poor outfielders back then. In fact, the first I remember an Indian player sliding in the outlfield was Bewda during the Aus tour in 1985-86.

Did Kapil Dev ever bowl a heavy ball or hit the bat hard? I generally don't give speed guns that much importance, I've watched Ponting getting hurried by an 85 mph ball from Flintoff and also watched Ross Taylor defending 100 mph ball from Starc with ease.

[MK55]

1 hour ago, MechEng said:

Bumrah rarely bowled in 140s when he was sending stumps flying in West Indies, the only time I saw him bowling consistently in 140s was in Australia.

 

Along with brisky pace Bumrah's chief weapon is banana swing like Waqar Younis, he does not need to bowl like Shoaib Akhtar.

Bumrah had acknowledged that he was down in pace in his post match interview. He had specifically mentioned that his back was stiff. Was the early sign of stress fracture.

Still he let go and bowled at full pace in one of the innings where he absolutely destroyed WI. In that spell he must have averaged close to 90 miles.

So obviously his speeds were down in WI.