How Long Should The Rope Be For Kohli If He Does Not Win WC

[vvvslaxman]

I understand the point about 2019 2017 loss. 2015 just visit the match thread. As soon as OZ decided to bat first pretty much everyone knew what was going to be the outcome. Starc was in red hot form. Johnson was around. Chasing 300 plus wa always an uphill task. We were just hoping for miracle rather than we were in that game at any point.

[putrevus]

2 hours ago, maniac said:

Selecting to bat 2nd in CT2017 final.

 

Kumble had  disassociated with the team by that point and hinted he would have batted first.

 

Sending MSD at 7 in WC semis when his tuk-tuk could have been a lot more useful at the top in that game.

 

Apparently Bangar made that call who has more authority than Shastri and Kohli himself.

 

Not sticking up for no.4 batsmen

 

Iyer-Unfairly dropped early on, Rayudu-unfairly picked but dropped at the last hour when everyone felt he booked his slot, DK-picked as no.4 when he was doing fine, pushed to be the finisher and then dropped, Raina-picked for 1 series and dropped.

 

obviously MSK and others need to get some blame for the picks but Kohli is the one who backs them.

 

Even in Aus in the nth hour he got it right and the final scoreline reads 2-1 when it should have been 4-0 but win is a win.

 

You can clearly spot the megalomania. The guy is a machine, and individually a genius but he is not a leader because he is neither capable of team building or out of the box solutions or keeping calm in panic all qualities of a leader.

 

 

So now we are making a point on what to do after winning a toss.They won chasing Semis nobody said anything about it.If Bumrah did not bowl that noball who knows what would have happened, I don't think that is big deal at all.Even Shastri said he would have batted that means nothing,It is like asking Ganguly why he bowled first in 2003 finals.MMQB is very easy to do.

 

MSD  I  agree it was a wrong move to send him at no7 and Iyer should have been given more chances.Rayudu they had no other option, he looked so out of place sometimes they had to change, it would have been fine if Dhawan did not get hurt, Rahul would have been no4.

 

If team selection is his biggest problem then he is fine as captain IMO.He leads by example and his teams give 100% on the field, yes he is impetous sometimes but I don't think it is wrong quality.I rather have a captain who is exicted and wants to give 100% every second on the field than captain like Dhoni who just left the game to get out of control once he left Indian shores in test matches where he knew there was no chance of this team winning.

 

Everyone is so up in arms about series losses in England and SA but those were close losses due to him leading his team which fought all the way if he had some tosses go his way who knows what would have happened.Yes they lost but they showed fight in every match which was never seen in any Indian team before atleast to me.They need some talent and luck to go their way.

 

 

 

[putrevus]

2 hours ago, Suhaan said:

Its not his fault even if he choked as an individual..no?he didn't play shami in overcast conditions,that wasn't a brainfart?

Yes he choked as a batsman in CT 2017 and in World cup semis, so you don't want Kohli in your team for next T20 world cup or moving forward you don't him in your team at all.

 

Not playing Shami was not wrong decision at all. Bhuvi bowled well and they wanted his bat.

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, SK_IH said:

He made the spin twin post the CT and broke it in the tournament for which he seemed like building it for. That's the fundamental issue with his captaincy, he is too random at times and makes unnecessary tweaks. Classic example is when played Karn ahead of Ashwin in Adelaide just because he was a leggie. These are just random theoretical moves.

Yes he should be credited for encouraging and facilitating a pace bowling culture no doubt but you conveniently put across this point about lack of talent/no openers/imbalance for the losses but all credit to Virat for the fighting spirit lol.If we go down this route even Sachin has a case for being a good captain, he had so much mediocre cricketers around him when was the captain.

You have to win with whatever you have at your disposal. 

He didn't break spin twins, Kuldeep was having problems and they needed more balance in the team.It is not like Kuldeep did not play in world cup.His replacement Jadeja almost led India to win so that decision was not wrong at all.

 

India did not loose due to its bowling, they lost because Top 3 Choked and could not handle the pressure.Sachin was absolutely dealt bad hand and he did not want to continue the rebuilding process and his batting suffered to an extent too.Kohli on other hand has lifted his batting to new level after becoming captain not many players do that look at what Root is doing after he became captain.

 

Saying it is easy, winning is hard.WI was the best team in 80s but they never won world cup during 80s.

 

IMO I judge captain how his teams  how they compete , he has made this team competitive in every format  in any country especially for team like India who have hard time winning away from home.He needs now start winning the series and cups. He captained two ICC tournaments and led to finals and Semis .Do we have any other captain in waiting who is better?

 

How many CTs and T20 world cups , Dhoni's teams not even reach knock out stages.

[raki05]

2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Which World Cup winning team has never suffered top order collapse. Ina big game you should always defend not chase. 1996 couldn’t chase, 2003 couldn’t chase 2017 couldn’t chase 2015 couldn’t chase 2019 couldn’t chase 1983 defended 2007 defended 2013 defended

 Similar example we have where we have chased like wc 11 final 2015 qf.... 2017 sf. Problem with Kohli is not only limited to collapse or choking. His captaincy has major issue.

[Khota]

2 hours ago, kruiser said:

Yes. And Make DK the captain. That will be the so Owsome!

What has DK got to do with it? Anyway I would take DK as a captain for Indian team over this serial loser.

[Khota]

5 hours ago, putrevus said:

That is utter nonsense, if he does not have talent to win, it is not captain's fault.he is doing great as captain.Winning any tournament needs luck and he needs to contribute as a batsman in crunch matches that is more important than his captaincy.

Talent is not the issue. There is plenty of talent to win anything right now. Utilizing talent is and that is on him.

[Khota]

4 hours ago, putrevus said:

How is he treating it as RCB is he supposed to manufacture middle order batsmen.Who are middle order batsmen in the country who have been denied a chance in last two years.Iyer has a case , I don't think anyone else is there.Dhawan who is heavy contributor in ICC tournaments got hurt.

Playing 3 wktkprs as batsman. That was on him.

[Suhaan]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Yes he choked as a batsman in CT 2017 and in World cup semis, so you don't want Kohli in your team for next T20 world cup or moving forward you don't him in your team at all.

 

Not playing Shami was not wrong decision at all. Bhuvi bowled well and they wanted his bat.

Not saying he as a batsman should be dropped not even thinking about that

Lol, dropping Shami was not wrong,only in your logical world

Shami is one of the best strike bowlers around and  did quite well in NZ tour just before WC

 not playing him in overcast conditions in a SF was a huge blunder ,for that alone he should have been stripped off his captaincy

Why would not you want to restrict opposition in a KO game? 

No one is complaining about Bhuvi's inclusion either as he is supposed to be a swing bowler,

but what was the rationale behind playing 3 spinners in overcast conditions? no matter how is the opposition against the  spinning ball ,they will always be happy to face spin in those conditions as opposed to facing seam,

so ,is he  not supposed to have that little common sense despite playing huge number of internationals or is he incapable of thinking anything beyond bilaterals?

So we conclude with this--

His loi captaincy is all about mediocrity ,at best 

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Suhaan

[Straight Drive]

Get ready to listen excuses for not winning yet another major tournament.

[putrevus]

46 minutes ago, Khota said:

Talent is not the issue. There is plenty of talent to win anything right now. Utilizing talent is and that is on him.

Where is that talent? It is not on him at all.It is Kohli the batsman who failed Kohli the captain.If you don't want Kohli in the team as you think he is loser and will never win his team with his bat, we can have that discussion.

Edited December 13, 2019 by putrevus

[ShoonyaSifar]

In the past 20 years, any captain who has failed in a ICC CT or WC in a 1-2 yr period has got sacked/lost captaincy  soon 

Match Fixer mafia Azhar - lost in98 CT, 99 WC, 2000 fixing scandal, career ended

Ganguly - lost  2003 WC, 2004 CT, lost captaincy in 2005

Dravid - 2006 CT, 2007 WC, lost captaincy in Sep 2007

Dhoni - Lost 2014 T20 WC, 2015 WC, 2016 T20 WC, quit captaincy in 2016

 

Kohli should join his predecessors soon

[Ankit_sharma03]

6 hours ago, raki05 said:

Look man you can't develop youngsters if you eat up 30-35 overs even in meaningless tournaments all I am trying to say. Either top 3 as a senior should take challenging responsibility or sit out in meaningless so that youngsters can get enough opportunity to sign and once they are confident they can play anywhere based on role given.

totally agreed

if half the time was wasted on wrong players like rayudu, yuvi, dK

other half was wasted on boosting personal stats of top 3 which cud have been used to give youngsters chances

[vvvslaxman]

2 hours ago, raki05 said:

 Similar example we have where we have chased like wc 11 final 2015 qf.... 2017 sf. Problem with Kohli is not only limited to collapse or choking. His captaincy has major issue.

we chased against Bangaldesh lol it hardly matters with them. Also 2015 QF we defended vs BD. We chased only against Ireland, UAE, Zimboks,WI. 2011 needed two high pressure knocks to win it after a top order collapse. Gambhi/Dhoni.  By and large it is hard to chase without some kind of outstanding performance. Especially chasing 329 in Australia vs Australia in a semi final? They will fail 9 out of 10 times. 

[Cricwala]

3 hours ago, sarchasm said:

I call him the LOSER, Lord Of Soft, Easy Runs.

That's too harsh...he has gutsed it out and delivered some great knocks in tough conditions in SA, Eng, AUS. In ODIs he has had some high profile failures, but T20s he has again delivered under pressure (he wld hv won us T20 WC 2016 if not for Yuvi brainfade).

 

But he just doesn't have the captaincy nous and calm to win major silverware - have more hopes from our test team at the moment, but there too Kohli's impetuosity and general unwillingness to groom young match winners will cost us at critical moments i fear.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Cricwala

[Khota]

4 hours ago, putrevus said:

Where is that talent? It is not on him at all.It is Kohli the batsman who failed Kohli the captain.If you don't want Kohli in the team as you think he is loser and will never win his team with his bat, we can have that discussion.

Kohli as a bat is not being discussed here. Kohli as a leader is an issue and as a tactician is a bigger issue. After spending so much time on Jadhav and Raydu dropping them for 3 wkt kprs was beyond dumb. Bowling is real good and  3wkt kprs competing for one spot and 7 bats competing for 5 spots. talent is not the issue at all.

[SK_IH]

@putrevus You cannot manipulate every fact to satisfy your agenda. So, Kuldeep was dropped because he was struggling? The process to separate the spin duo for Jadeja started in late 2018 against WI, it was another unnecessary random move, which continued till the WC. The only series they played together most of the games in that duration was against NZ when both overwhelmed the kiwis. It was a classic case of fixing something which was not broken, he should have backed the spin duo which was one main reasons of India's success post CT.

Secondly, you say you judge a captain by seeing how competitive his team is but most judge by how many his team wins. Also you need to understand there is no point boasting about being competitive against teams who were beatable. Both teams (Eng and SA) since 2018 have been beatable at home and were there for the taking but messed up. In the end the scoreline against that ordinary English test side of 4-1 was an embarrassing outcome, far from being enjoyed as competitive.

Edited December 14, 2019 by SK_IH

[GautiMaan]

Kohli the captain must override his own innate desire to bat at number 3.We have too many talented batsmen who can bat in top 3 but none have the game to do what Yuvi used to do at number 4.In this scenario Kohli must take it upon himself to be the batsman the team needs him to be.

Ganguly,Tendulkar,Gambhir have all dropped batting positions for the teams sake,infact this should have happened in the WC itself

Edited December 14, 2019 by GautiMaan

[Jimmy Cliff]

1 hour ago, SK_IH said:

@putrevus You cannot manipulate every fact to satisfy your agenda. So, Kuldeep was dropped because he was struggling? The process to separate the spin duo for Jadeja started in late 2018 against WI, it was another unnecessary random move, which continued till the WC. The only series they played together most of the games in that duration was against NZ when both overwhelmed the kiwis. It was a classic case of fixing something which was not broken, he should have backed the spin duo which was one main reasons of India's success post CT.

Secondly, you say you judge a captain by seeing how competitive his team is but most judge by how many his team wins. Also you need to understand there is no point boasting about being competitive against teams who were beatable. Both teams (Eng and SA) since 2018 have been beatable at home and were there for the taking but messed up. In the end the scoreline against that ordinary English test side of 4-1 was an embarrassing outcome, far from being enjoyed as competitive.

I find it amusing how defeats in S.A. and England where we couldn't even keep the series alive until the last Test are spun as "close" or "competitive" .

[Khota]

4 hours ago, Shaz1 said:

Being a top Test team should matter more than the World Cup.

Who is watching tests in 2019, I don't know of anyone. T20 is the way to go.