sandeep Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 I'm trying to read up on the CAB now passed already, so CAA I guess. To me, the CAA seems acceptable. But the NRC is definitely not benign, and a huge problem. Worthy of protesting against. This NRC **** can very easily be used to target vulnerable poor people. Hell, even regular folks can have trouble digging up paper records of their grandparents or parents. If a corrupt or prejudiced govt official asks someone to "prove" that your parent or grandparent was born in India before 1971, it can be very tough to get public records. I still remember how difficult it was to obtain birth certificates for my mom, when trying to get our passport. She was born in 1950 in a village in Gujarat. It took a year, and then finally a family friend had a distant relative who worked in that district government office, who essentially created a fake birth certificate for us - in typical babu inefficiency, they got the birth date wrong. To this day, my mom's passport has the wrong birth date in it, because it was so difficult to get that birth certificate, it was easier to just get all the other documents re-issued. The implementation of NRC in Assam has already demonstrated that the process is very prone to mistakes - which is why the govt has bundled the CAA along with this - so that non-muslims who are unable to dig up records for NRC can bypass it via CAA. @Mariyam Sorry to bug you, but you are the resident legal expert, and I am curious to get your thoughts as well as some legit informed opinions on the question of NRC. Mind chiming in?
coffee_rules Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 CAB without NRC has no protection against illegals who are already here. Cutoff date of 1971 seems legit as per Assam Accord. But later in 80s by CPI and then Mamta in 90s have let BDs in for votebanks. In 2005/6 INC was for NRC when it was losing out in WB with Mamta doing what CPI did in 80s, settled in BDs as voters. Now, the situation has gone out of control. NRC was a election mudda in Assam and BJP is pushing in WB. But since illegals have moved to cities in rest of India, we need a nationwide NRC. This will address the demography concerns for National Security. Stability of a region will be impacted by influx of large number of Muslims from BD into a region and impacting peace. National Security should be made a public policy to safeguard what is left of the nation. Real McCoy and Norman 2
sandeep Posted December 16, 2019 Author Posted December 16, 2019 Just now, coffee_rules said: CAB without NRC has no protection against illegals who are already here. Cutoff date of 1971 seems legit as per Assam Accord. But later in 80s by CPI and then Mamta in 90s have let BDs in for votebanks. In 2005/6 INC was for NRC when it was losing out in WB with Mamta doing what CPI did in 80s, settled in BDs as voters. Now, the situation has gone out of control. NRC was a election mudda in Assam and BJP is pushing in WB. But since illegals have moved to cities in rest of India, we need a nationwide NRC. This will address the demography concerns for National Security. Stability of a region will be impacted by influx of large number of Muslims from BD into a region and impacting peace. National Security should be made a public policy to safeguard what is left of the nation. I understand the concerns on security and illegal economic migrants. Agreed that we need to have laws and mechanisms to address this. But I think there is merit in viewing the NRC as a problem - try to put yourself in the shoes of a poor person - it is very, very difficult to get government records from the past. I would never have needed to get my mom's birth certificate unless we needed to get passports when we first came to the US. Asking somebody to "prove" that their grandparents were born in Modern India 50 60 years ago, could be impossible. And then these govt babus would have the power to declare you a non-citizen. This is a very powerful and dangerous weapon to hand over to govt officials who we know are going to be corrupt and inefficient. There has to be a better alternative. And I will also add this - if some bengalis came illegally into India 10 20 years ago, and then have been living here since then - and they had children - I think the children are Indian citizens at that point. Its a messy situation, and India is not a rich country to absorb migration easily. But at that point, it is easy to see how the combination of NRC + CAB means that non-muslim migrants will find it 'easy' to normalize, while muslims will be discriminated against. This is not good.
coffee_rules Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 8 minutes ago, sandeep said: I understand the concerns on security and illegal economic migrants. Agreed that we need to have laws and mechanisms to address this. But I think there is merit in viewing the NRC as a problem - try to put yourself in the shoes of a poor person - it is very, very difficult to get government records from the past. I would never have needed to get my mom's birth certificate unless we needed to get passports when we first came to the US. Asking somebody to "prove" that their grandparents were born in Modern India 50 60 years ago, could be impossible. And then these govt babus would have the power to declare you a non-citizen. This is a very powerful and dangerous weapon to hand over to govt officials who we know are going to be corrupt and inefficient. There has to be a better alternative. And I will also add this - if some bengalis came illegally into India 10 20 years ago, and then have been living here since then - and they had children - I think the children are Indian citizens at that point. Its a messy situation, and India is not a rich country to absorb migration easily. But at that point, it is easy to see how the combination of NRC + CAB means that non-muslim migrants will find it 'easy' to normalize, while muslims will be discriminated against. This is not good. I am not saying how NRC is to be implemented. I had told earlier, it will be inhumane to deport all of them back and it is impossible to implement. The sheer numbers will be a huge logistical exercise for which India is not rich enough. There is no nationwide NRC yet. It is still in tabulation phase or an election gimmick. Until, we see the implementation details, there is no debate on NRC or there should be any fear mongering. That is what the other side is doing now, When did BJP say all Muslims and Minorities will be put in concentration camps? This misleading talk in dangerous and secessionist. Yes, getting proof is a burden on the citizen and welcome move for the Govt officals to be corrupt and give out fake documentas. The only outcome I see as of now is some steps like disenfranchising after close scrutiny of declaring an illegal, Avoid settling them around like-minded people to not impact demography etc.
coffee_rules Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 I think the restrain shown will allow more sloganeering and help identify the people and form a narrative and consolidate more Nationalistic votes.
mishra Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 Both are complimentary and a must. People have no idea how many illegals economic migrants have entered India. We can not class religiouly persecuted group to lbe illegals as they are refugees adi B and sergio04 2
someone Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 That's plain fear mongering. NRC all over India procedures hasnt been announced, and nobody knows what it will be. Assam was the first case, and the experience will be learned well, and obviously it will be different kind of planning required for nationwide NRC. And you are whining about producing documents to local authorities, but will happily oblige when applying for foreign visas. Immigration is a global issue and you should be happy that this government intends to fix it together with the SC backing. sergio04, diga, Real McCoy and 3 others 6
sandeep Posted December 16, 2019 Author Posted December 16, 2019 40 minutes ago, someone said: That's plain fear mongering. NRC all over India procedures hasnt been announced, and nobody knows what it will be. Assam was the first case, and the experience will be learned well, and obviously it will be different kind of planning required for nationwide NRC. And you are whining about producing documents to local authorities, but will happily oblige when applying for foreign visas. Immigration is a global issue and you should be happy that this government intends to fix it together with the SC backing. Its not fear mongering - The Assam implementation of NRC showed how flawed and screwed up the process is. No surprise, all govt bureaucratic efforts are prone to this. I agree that there is a problem of too many economic migrants from Bangladesh - and there are demographic issues at stake too. BUT, the NRC is a mechanism that is too easily subverted to serve corruption and bigotry. There has to be a better way. I believe that those who are refusing to recognize this, are doing so, because its not a problem for them personally.
someone Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 1 hour ago, sandeep said: Its not fear mongering - The Assam implementation of NRC showed how flawed and screwed up the process is. No surprise, all govt bureaucratic efforts are prone to this. I agree that there is a problem of too many economic migrants from Bangladesh - and there are demographic issues at stake too. BUT, the NRC is a mechanism that is too easily subverted to serve corruption and bigotry. There has to be a better way. I believe that those who are refusing to recognize this, are doing so, because its not a problem for them personally. That's fear-mongering. If you do X, quyamat will happen. That logic stalled the Ram Mandir issue, and thankfully it was done this year. The system is flawed, but doing nothing will not solve it. At this moment, NRC is a solution with great potential. And NRC itself is not a new thing, many parties and SC have spoken for it, yet it really took this government to implement it. adi B, sergio04 and raki05 3
cowboysfan Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 what is the plan for the illegal immigrants who have been living here for a long time? they are not going to send them back,i think the only goal here is to disenfranchise them and make them persona non grata in the society.a better option would have been to stop all future immigration and integrate the illegals into the soceity.now we will people who cant function in society properly and this will lead to radicalization. Alam_dar and sandeep 1 1
Gollum Posted December 16, 2019 Posted December 16, 2019 Illegal Bangladeshis going back to BD from bordering districts due to panic, some people (cross-border smuggling mafia?) charging Rs 5000 per person to transport them across border. Norman, sergio04 and raki05 2 1
sandeep Posted December 16, 2019 Author Posted December 16, 2019 7 minutes ago, cowboysfan said: what is the plan for the illegal immigrants who have been living here for a long time? they are not going to send them back,i think the only goal here is to disenfranchise them and make them persona non grata in the society.a better option would have been to stop all future immigration and integrate the illegals into the soceity.now we will people who cant function in society properly and this will lead to radicalization. Exactly. There has to be a better way. India allows any and all Nepalis to work in India without being citizens, maybe set up a program for illegal Bangladeshis to legalize themselves with a Residency card, maybe pay a fee of some kind. Maybe deport some. But you can't set up a process which can make it super easy for a govt official to blackmail a legit citizen - set up a system like that, and its bound to be abused. People are being seriously inconsiderate about the logistical impossibilities here. For anybody with a grandparent not born in a major city, think how difficult it would be to obtain your grandparents' birth certificate in some rural boondock town where you may not have any connections. Switch hit and cowboysfan 2
Gollum Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) Nationwide NRC hasn't been announced, if it becomes reality these usual suspects will do more protests and destroy $100bn worth public property. Now the focus is just CAA, we can worry about NRC-CAA combo when/if it is announced. Not easy because state govts may not co-operate and SC will get involved....already CMs of Bengal, Kerala, Punjab, Bihar have announced that they won't implement NRC in their states, Assam govt was BJP and people there were sick and tired of immigration problem over half a century....many incl Assamese Muslims were in favor of it. In Assam these were the requirements keeping in view the ASSAM ACCORD Quote There will be two requirements for inclusion of names of any person in updated NRC– 1. The first requirement is collection of ANY ONE of the following documents of List A issued before midnight of 24th March, 1971 where name of self or ancestor* appears (to prove residence in Assam up to midnight of 24th March, 1971). (1) 1951 NRC OR (2) Electoral Roll(s) up to 24th March 1971 (midnight) OR (3) Land & Tenancy Records OR (4) Citizenship Certificate OR (5) Permanent Residential Certificate OR (6) Refugee Registration Certificate OR (7) Passport OR (8) LIC OR (9) Any Govt. issued License/Certificate OR (10) Govt. Service/ Employment Certificate OR (11) Bank/Post Office Accounts OR (12) Birth Certificate OR (13) Board/University Educational Certificate OR (14) Court Records/Processes. Further, two other documents viz (1) Circle Officer/GP Secretary Certificate in respect of married women migrating after marriage (can be of any year before or after 24th March (midnight) 1971), and (2) Ration Card issued up to the midnight of 24th March, 1971 can be adduced as supporting documents. However, these two documents shall be accepted only if accompanied by any one of the documents listed above. 2. The Second requirement arises if name in any of the documents of List A is not of the applicant himself/herself but that of an ancestor, namely, father or mother or grandfather or grandmother or great grandfather or great grandmother (and so on) of the applicant. In such cases, the applicant shall have to submit documents as in List B below to establish relationship with such ancestor, i.e., father or mother or grandfather or grandmother or great grandfather or great grandmother etc. whose name appears in List A. Such documents shall have to be legally acceptable document which clearly proves such relationship. (1) Birth Certificate OR (2) Land document OR (3) Board/University Certificate OR (4) Bank/LIC/Post Office records OR (5) Circle Officer/GP Secretary Certificate in case of married women OR (6) Electoral Roll OR (7) Ration Card OR (8) Any other legally acceptable document Points to remember Providing any one of the documents of List A of ANY PERIOD up to midnight of 24th March, 1971 shall be enough to prove eligibility for inclusion in updated NRC. Now Assam Accord (1971 cut-off clause) doesn't apply in rest of India, we don't know how GOI will approach. Maybe they will be more lenient, requirements will be sensible enough otherwise the task of the conducting agency will be very tough, may even become a farce. They will learn from the Assam experience and hopefully be more prepared. My main interest is Bengal, I don't think it will be done there...even if BJP comes to power in 2021 any attempt to force this issue will result in the state becoming the next Rwanda, actually much worse. Outsiders can choose to pontificate but you have no idea how bad things are in 50% of the districts, and I pray no other state has to go through that experience. Imagine a situation where some family's sister/daughter is kidnapped and kept as sex slave in minority areas and police refuses to intervene disobeying HC orders...that's how bad it is. I wouldn't wish this Bengal secularism/multiculturasim experiment on my worst enemy. Seriously no expectation from this exercise, let some poor refugees get Indian citizenship, that's the only good news, rest won't go anywhere and any attempt to push matters will result in a scale of genocide which the world hasn't experienced since WW-II. Edited December 17, 2019 by Gollum
Mariyam Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 @sandeep To be honest I do not know how the NRC is going to be carried out pan India. In Assam, the NRC was carried out as laid out in the Assam Accords. sandeep 1
sandeep Posted December 17, 2019 Author Posted December 17, 2019 33 minutes ago, Mariyam said: @sandeep To be honest I do not know how the NRC is going to be carried out pan India. In Assam, the NRC was carried out as laid out in the Assam Accords. what's your take on the protests?
Mariyam Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, sandeep said: what's your take on the protests? I really don't know what to make of it, I am confused. Mamata Banerjee, Captain Arminder and the CM of Kerala declare that they will not implement the CAB in their respective states. What does that even mean? Will Captain Arminder refuse to grant citizenship to a Sikh refugee who has fled persecution in Pakistan? Or does it mean that they want every refugee regardless of his/her religious background to be accorded citizenship rights? They are not very clear in what they wish. All they are stating clearly is that they 'oppose' the current CAA. Also, their statement is puzzling. 'Citizenship' never was a state government subject. Not implementing the CAB is not even an option. Unless they spell out their alternative, difficult to judge their protest as anything other than grandstanding and an attempt to get political mileage. sandeep 1
sandeep Posted December 17, 2019 Author Posted December 17, 2019 42 minutes ago, Mariyam said: I really don't know what to make of it, I am confused. Mamata Banerjee, Captain Arminder and the CM of Kerala declare that they will not implement the CAB in their respective states. What does that even mean? Will Captain Arminder refuse to grant citizenship to a Sikh refugee who has fled persecution in Pakistan? Or does it mean that they want every refugee regardless of his/her religious background to be accorded citizenship rights? They are not very clear in what they wish. All they are stating clearly is that they 'oppose' the current CAA. Also, their statement is puzzling. 'Citizenship' never was a state government subject. Not implementing the CAB is not even an option. Unless they spell out their alternative, difficult to judge their protest as anything other than grandstanding and an attempt to get political mileage. Yeah, me too. I read through the CAA, and it really doesn't seem to have any impact on any muslim citizens of India. I do not see any reason to protest against it - unless you buy the conspiracy theory that the CAA is just a backstop for some kind of evil dystopian NRC that is going to render Indian muslims stateless. Apart from a distrust of the BJP - which is understandable to a degree - I do not see factual evidence of this - yet. That's why I keep pinging you on this threads. To try and get a legal expert's input. I do see the potential for abuse and corruption with the NRC, so to an extent the concerns are reasonable and valid. Laaloo 1
mishra Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 My understanding may be wrong but, Current CAA is nothing but reduction of timeframe from 11 years to 5 year refugee status for persecuted minorities. Read again, change is only “from 11 years to 5 years”. and they won’t implement the change.
sandeep Posted December 17, 2019 Author Posted December 17, 2019 @Laaloo kuch bolnaa hai to bol popat! Laaloo, Gollum and Real McCoy 2 1
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