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Mass Murders of Shia Muslims in Pakistan

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Worshipping Allah is not enough. A lot of non-Muslims do not realize that the muslim infighting causes more casualties than external sources.

 

Saudi Arabia is more dangerous country than Iran, and yet, Trump goes and kisses Saudi auss. :facepalm:

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Is this Ayatollah popular among Indian Muslims @Mariyam ? Who are the top Shia leaders in India? Do you think they should condemn Iran's meddling in Indian affairs? Do you think prominent Indian Shias will speak out against Iran's Supreme Leader, foreign minister and other top officials who are making loose comments? IMO maintaining silence means their loyalty lies elsewhere. 

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1 minute ago, Gollum said:

Is this Ayatollah popular among Indian Muslims @Mariyam ? Who are the top Shia leaders in India? Do you think they should condemn Iran's meddling in Indian affairs? Do you think prominent Indian Shias will speak out against Iran's Supreme Leader, foreign minister and other top officials who are making loose comments? IMO maintaining silence means their loyalty lies elsewhere. 

The Ayatollah is definitely popular among the pious Shiites. Most shiite homes and businesses would have a photo of the current Ayatollah and his predecessor; Khomeini.  He is the rahbar and the equivalent of the head of the clergy class (a position missing among the Sunnis).

 

Also, in India Shias are not homogenuous. There are twelver Shiites, whose primary leader is Kalbe Jawad the chief imam at Lucknow. Doubt he would condemn the Ayotallah's statement. That would be akin to heresy. But his office has replied to the foreign minister's tweet in a letter to the editor in a popular newspaper.  

 

Dawoodi Bohra's are also counted as shiites in our census. Their spiritual leader is the Syedna. But the Ayatollah has no pull among the Bohris.

The Khojas are also a sub sect of the Shiites where the Ayatollah has no traction.

 

 

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Not the first time this Ayatollah has made controversial statements about India. Even meddled in Kashmir related affairs, pro-Pak line. Has Modi (or MMS/Vajpayee before him) ever publicly spoken about Iran's internal affairs, meddled in their territorial issues? We even ignored US pressure to trade with them, continue to invest there, keep calling them our ally.....is this how allies behave? 

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1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Not the first time this Ayatollah has made controversial statements about India. Even meddled in Kashmir related affairs, pro-Pak line. Has Modi (or MMS/Vajpayee before him) ever publicly spoken about Iran's internal affairs, meddled in their territorial issues? We even ignored US pressure to trade with them, continue to invest there, keep calling them our ally.....is this how allies behave? 

Could be for domestic consumption. Doesn't mean that Indian and Iranian partnership etc changes. 

I am no expert here, but India has stopped buying or reduced buying oil from Iran under US pressure. India buys a lot from Saudi Arabia now. They haven't condemned India. Its all business.

 

India has routinely voted against Israel in the UN. On issues that pertain to Israeli policies. We are still allies etc.

Edited by Mariyam
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18 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

The Ayatollah is definitely popular among the pious Shiites. Most shiite homes and businesses would have a photo of the current Ayatollah and his predecessor; Khomeini.  He is the rahbar and the equivalent of the head of the clergy class (a position missing among the Sunnis).

 

Also, in India Shias are not homogenuous. There are twelver Shiites, whose primary leader is Kalbe Jawad the chief imam at Lucknow. Doubt he would condemn the Ayotallah's statement. That would be akin to heresy. But his office has replied to the foreign minister's tweet in a letter to the editor in a popular newspaper.  

 

Dawoodi Bohra's are also counted as shiites in our census. Their spiritual leader is the Syedna. But the Ayatollah has no pull among the Bohris.

The Khojas are also a sub sect of the Shiites where the Ayatollah has no traction.

 

 

So many sects.... 

 

Isnt having a photo of the relegious leaders against Islam ?

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16 minutes ago, diga said:

So many sects.... 

 

Isnt having a photo of the relegious leaders against Islam ?

There is some degree of ambiguity on this.

The portrait isn't prayed to, in case of the Ayatollah.

Some schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence are against any display of the human form. In the form of statues, pictures or paintings.

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1 hour ago, Mariyam said:

Could be for domestic consumption. Doesn't mean that Indian and Iranian partnership etc changes. 

I am no expert here, but India has stopped buying or reduced buying oil from Iran under US pressure. India buys a lot from Saudi Arabia now. They haven't condemned India. Its all business.

 

India has routinely voted against Israel in the UN. On issues that pertain to Israeli policies. We are still allies etc.

This. Saudis talk bad about Isreal and vice versa but are allies through US. They both hate Iran due to geopolitics. We should stick to our business and keep it neutral on world affairs. Same thing some hindus talk about isreal. Their logic is India has problems with muslims and pakistan and isreal has problems with palestinians and muslims so enemy's enemy is a friend. It doesnt work like that. Take Wendy doniger for example, an amreican jew who has constantly written negatively about hindus. I'm very skeptical of this ally concept especially with us and isreal. they cant be trusted. we know what we get from pakistan - a lot of hate. but this uneasy friendship is not something i trust. We should make peace with each other as Indians no matter if they are hindu, muslim or whatever and engage the local muslim community to think for themselves alone rather than thinking about global muslims. I know its a tall order but efforts need to be made. This is probably not the thread to discuss it as I forgot the original thread :confused:

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22 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

This. Saudis talk bad about Isreal and vice versa but are allies through US. They both hate Iran due to geopolitics. We should stick to our business and keep it neutral on world affairs. Same thing some hindus talk about isreal. Their logic is India has problems with muslims and pakistan and isreal has problems with palestinians and muslims so enemy's enemy is a friend. It doesnt work like that. Take Wendy doniger for example, an amreican jew who has constantly written negatively about hindus. I'm very skeptical of this ally concept especially with us and isreal. they cant be trusted. we know what we get from pakistan - a lot of hate. but this uneasy friendship is not something i trust. We should make peace with each other as Indians no matter if they are hindu, muslim or whatever and engage the local muslim community to think for themselves alone rather than thinking about global muslims. I know its a tall order but efforts need to be made. This is probably not the thread to discuss it as I forgot the original thread :confused:

:laugh:

 

Didn't you know that EVERY SINGLE THREAD in chit chat is to discuss the Hindu-Muslim chasm.

I mean how can you not discuss the 5th battle of Bahubali in 1333AD between Sultan Pappu Fakeeruddin and Raja Dev Bhalla II, which the Sultan won through deceit and his forces inflicted untold miseries on the local Hindu populace, for which obviously all Muslims henceforth born in the India are  personally responsible. :dontknow:

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15 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

:laugh:

 

Didn't you know that EVERY SINGLE THREAD in chit chat is to discuss the Hindu-Muslim chasm.

I mean how can you not discuss the 5th battle of Bahubali in 1333AD between Sultan Pappu Fakeeruddin and Raja Dev Bhalla II, which the Sultan won through deceit and his forces inflicted untold miseries on the local Hindu populace, for which obviously all Muslims henceforth born in the India are  personally responsible. :dontknow:

If you referring to Malik Kafur's invasion of the Deccan then yes that's true. 

Although the timeline is bit off by 20 something years. 

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3 minutes ago, Stradlater said:

If you referring to Malik Kafur's invasion of the Deccan then yes that's true. 

Although the timeline is bit off by 20 something years. 

No. I just made up the year and inserted character names from the Bahubali series. :p:

 

I was going to pick the year 666 AD, but then I realised that would be anachronistic with actual Indian history.

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2 hours ago, Mariyam said:

:laugh:

 

Didn't you know that EVERY SINGLE THREAD in chit chat is to discuss the Hindu-Muslim chasm.

I mean how can you not discuss the 5th battle of Bahubali in 1333AD between Sultan Pappu Fakeeruddin and Raja Dev Bhalla II, which the Sultan won through deceit and his forces inflicted untold miseries on the local Hindu populace, for which obviously all Muslims henceforth born in the India are  personally responsible. :dontknow:

This one?

Rahul-Gandhi-12-770x433-770x433.jpg

 

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9 hours ago, Mariyam said:

Also, in India Shias are not homogenuous. There are twelver Shiites, whose primary leader is Kalbe Jawad the chief imam at Lucknow. Doubt he would condemn the Ayotallah's statement. That would be akin to heresy. But his office has replied to the foreign minister's tweet in a letter to the editor in a popular newspaper.  

In Pakistan, there are 2 sets of twelver Shias:

 

1. Malang Shias (They are like Sufis. They are sometimes deadly against Ayatullahs)

2. Shariati Shias They are the follower of Sharia and follow Ayatullahs completely). 

 

Both these groups have severe problems with each other in Pakistan. 

 

9 hours ago, Mariyam said:

Dawoodi Bohra's are also counted as shiites in our census. Their spiritual leader is the Syedna. But the Ayatollah has no pull among the Bohris.

The Khojas are also a sub sect of the Shiites where the Ayatollah has no traction.

 

@Mariyam I don't think that Khojas are a sub-sect of Shias.  I am sure that Khojas are themselves twelver Shias (they are unlike Bohras, who are not twelver Shias). 

 

Presently Khojas follow Ayatullah Seestani of Iraq. But they are indeed Shariati Shias, but not fanatics. It is possible that after the death of Seestani, they may start following any Iranian Ayatullah. 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Gollum said:

Not the first time this Ayatollah has made controversial statements about India. Even meddled in Kashmir related affairs, pro-Pak line. Has Modi (or MMS/Vajpayee before him) ever publicly spoken about Iran's internal affairs, meddled in their territorial issues? We even ignored US pressure to trade with them, continue to invest there, keep calling them our ally.....is this how allies behave? 

He is a lover of Iqbal and has a Phd degree upon Iqbal. 

 

Iqbal did most of his poetry in Persian as compared to Urdu. Therefore, Iranians claim Iqbal to be their poet than of Pakistan. 

 

Since he is a  Shariati Ayatullah, therefore it may be that Hindus are still "Napak" (impure) according to his Fatwa (although some of his fellow Shia Ayatullahs don't consider Hindus as impure). There is a verse in Quran which claims all non-Muslims to be impure. Some follow it literally (i.e. physical impurity), while other claims that Quran is telling about spiritual impurity. 

 

(Quran 9:28) يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ

Translation:
O you who believe! the idolaters (Mushrikeen) are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year. 

 

 

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There is no denying the fact that many Shias were killed in the past In blasts by some unknown extremists group , but if you ask any common Pakistani Sunny or Shia he/she would have no bad feeling against each other and they all condemn those extremists killers responsible for such acts . Neither you will find any Pakistani forum where Sunny and Shias attaching each other , they have no issues between them . Unlike in India , like this very forum every post is by a Hindu and is against Muslims like Indian Muslim don’t belong to India . 

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On 3/6/2020 at 12:30 AM, Gollum said:

Don't give a * about them Baki Shias, they are our enemy as much as Sunnis and Ahmadis. Stop feeling sorry when they are butchered. Problem is with that prophet and asmani kitab.....7th century ideology, that is the root cause. 

 

Do read up what happened in 1990s during India’s isolation with respect to Kashmir by Amrica. Only countries that helped India were Russia and Iran. Vajpayee even Made a statement that India needs to improve its image in international community.

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No other religion sees this kind of infighting. Middle East has seen 10 lakhs death in the last 20 years because of civil unrest or infighting in or between the middle East nation's. For all the talk that Islam is United, the numbers of causualty due to infighting tells a totally different fact.

 

It is good to see education and exposure of some Muslims to modern world positively influencing and changing the lifestyle of sensible Muslim people. The note the number of Muslims go through this, the lesser they will fight and kill their own people and even others. Might take another few decades though that many more of them start looking for a quality lifestyle and enjoy what modern advanced worked offers to the people rather than take a gun and be a fanatic.

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On 3/7/2020 at 11:12 PM, Alam_dar said:

 

@Mariyam I don't think that Khojas are a sub-sect of Shias.  I am sure that Khojas are themselves twelver Shias (they are unlike Bohras, who are not twelver Shias). 

Presently Khojas follow Ayatullah Seestani of Iraq. But they are indeed Shariati Shias, but not fanatics. It is possible that after the death of Seestani, they may start following any Iranian Ayatullah. 

 

The Khojas' spiritual leader is Aga Khan. You are probably mistaking the Khojas for some other sect.

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2 hours ago, Mariyam said:

The Khojas' spiritual leader is Aga Khan. You are probably mistaking the Khojas for some other sect.

The followers of Agha Khan are not Khojas, but they are known as "Ismaili Shias"

 

While Khojas are 12er Shias. 

 

While Bohri Muslims are separate from both 12er Shias and Ismaili Shias. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

The followers of Agha Khan are not Khojas, but they are known as "Ismaili Shias"

 

While Khojas are 12er Shias. 

 

While Bohri Muslims are separate from both 12er Shias and Ismaili Shias. 

 

 

Khojas are a subsect of/synonymous with Ismaili Nizaris! And Aga Khan is their Imam.

https://www.caleidoscope.in/art-culture/khoja-muslims

http://khojapedia.com/wiki/index.php?title=Khojas

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Khoja

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpUdhglTzr8

 

Probably the term Khoja has a different connotation in Pakistan. In India, or at least Mumbai and Gujarat, where Khojas are from; the word Khoja is synonymous with Ismaili.

 

I know who Bohris are, a little too well for my liking. My mom is a Bohri!

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On 3/7/2020 at 11:30 PM, Alam_dar said:

He is a lover of Iqbal and has a Phd degree upon Iqbal. 

 

Iqbal did most of his poetry in Persian as compared to Urdu. Therefore, Iranians claim Iqbal to be their poet than of Pakistan. 

 

Since he is a  Shariati Ayatullah, therefore it may be that Hindus are still "Napak" (impure) according to his Fatwa (although some of his fellow Shia Ayatullahs don't consider Hindus as impure). There is a verse in Quran which claims all non-Muslims to be impure. Some follow it literally (i.e. physical impurity), while other claims that Quran is telling about spiritual impurity. 

 

(Quran 9:28) يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ

Translation:
O you who believe! the idolaters (Mushrikeen) are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year. 

 

 

Was Iqbal a shia?

 

Did you know that Persians Literature students in Iran have to study some work of Amir Khusraw also as a part of their syllabus. 

Like for Iqbal, appreciation and recognition in Iran for Khusraw's work was posthumous. In fact, many centuries later.

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4 hours ago, mishra said:

:hatsoff:thank you Jinnah Saab for attempting to contain the mess. Eff you Indian politicians of 1940s and 50s that despite His insistence, they didn’t agreed to support his call for His brethren leave India

Believe me, if all Muslims had left India and went to Pak/Ban, then India would have been a first world nation today. 
 

Massive middle fingers to both Nehru and Gandhi 

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Shia - Sunni sectarian fights and killings in Pakistan going for ages

But unlikely to break into full out civil war, because plenty of Shias presence as generals and soldiers in Pak Army.

 

If divisions breaks out along sect lines in Pak Army, then you can bet Pak will be next war torn middle east coutry like Yemen and Syria.

 

But unlikely and Pak Army top brass knows importance to keep  cohesion within its ranks. 

 

 

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