KL Rahul as a keeper feels right, not looking to change it - Virat Kohli

[Lannister]

On 1/20/2020 at 10:33 PM, vvvslaxman said:

Ganguly was an autocrat. Tendulkar was the only guy who escaped scrutiny. He openly abused Srinath in a test match and even the usually calm Srinath had to respond back. 

I am curious about this. What exactly did Changuly do? 

[coffee_rules]

On 1/20/2020 at 12:03 PM, vvvslaxman said:

Ganguly was an autocrat. Tendulkar was the only guy who escaped scrutiny. He openly abused Srinath in a test match and even the usually calm Srinath had to respond back. 

Not true, may be it was the heat of the moment. Ganguly literally begged Srinath to come out of retirement to play in the ODIs for the WC, when JS had retired in 2002. He valued Srinath more than ZK or Aag at that time. Dravid was a pushover case in point, when Ganguly made Dravid declare with Tendlya stuck on 194*. He scrutinized Sachin by proxy.

On 1/20/2020 at 12:02 PM, vvvslaxman said:

No it was not laughable. There were many artices written related to how Dravid kept on doing compromises. It was what Ganguly/Chappell wanted to shape. Ganguly at every given opportunity put Dravid in the spot. In 2001 series Ganguly was terrible as well.  But he made a straight swap instead of pushing Dravid to no.5.  Then he made him open the innings for a few matches. 

2001 Wright was the coach, Dravid only started keeping regularly after 2002 NZ series, before that he was recalled back after his form in 2001. 

[vvvslaxman]

6 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Not true, may be it was the heat of the moment. Ganguly literally begged Srinath to come out of retirement to play in the ODIs for the WC, when JS had retired in 2002. He valued Srinath more than ZK or Aag at that time. Dravid was a pushover case in point, when Ganguly made Dravid declare with Tendlya stuck on 194*. He scrutinized Sachin by proxy.

2001 Wright was the coach, Dravid only started keeping regularly after 2002 NZ series, before that he was recalled back after his form in 2001. 

Yea.. i know that was just a misstatement. I knew it was Wright. Back then India missed players who can accelerate.  Both Dravid, Laxman were poor. They even tried opening with Laxman.  Hemang Badani had a golden opportunity to seal his spot. But he didn't score big. Bar his 100 against OZ didn't do much. 20s,30s didn't cut it.   Regarding Ganguly's style, he never respected anyone. He didn't care if someone missed out. His goal was to win without relying on any individual.  He was particular about making sure nobody is indispensable.

[Ankit_sharma03]

 

Kaif - ur playing pandey at 6 who needs time to get going even in SRH he did well when he was promoted at 3, at 6 u need players like pant

 

 

[zen]

18 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Kaif - ur playing pandey at 6 who needs time to get going even in SRH he did well when he was promoted at 3, at 6 u need players like pant

 

 

In an LOI, it is relatively difficult to play Panday at 6. As Sehwag and Kaif rightly remarked - Pandey likes to bat higher (and can be a backup for #3-5 slots). Pant is a natural player for either top order or lower middle order in ODIs .... In T20s, Pant can bat at 1-5 as it will give him sufficient balls to make an impact. If he gets out quickly, he would not have wasted balls, which allows others more balls to settle as well (vs someone who wastes balls and gets out, which does not give others enough balls to settle and creates more pressure on the new batsman to go relatively early after the attack than he would have preferred) 

Edited January 23, 2020 by zen

[Ankit_sharma03]

24 minutes ago, zen said:

In an LOI, it is relatively difficult to play Panday at 6. As Sehwag and Kaif rightly remarked - Pandey likes to bat higher (and can be a backup for #3-5 slots). Pant is a natural player for either top order or lower middle order in ODIs .... In T20s, Pant can bat at 1-5 as it will give him sufficient balls to make an impact. If he gets out quickly, he would not have wasted balls, which allows others more balls to settle as well (vs someone who wastes balls and gets out, which does not give others enough balls to settle and creates more pressure on the new batsman to go relatively early after the attack than he would have preferred) 

Also pandey like rahane doesnt like spin at start 

pant has been one of the best in IPL in such short career , he already has 2-50s in his career and acc to kohli he cant fit in but dhoni who has 2 -50s in his entire career was good enough to play 100 games

 

Ghor Chu*****

[zen]

13 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Also pandey like rahane doesnt like spin at start 

pant has been one of the best in IPL in such short career , he already has 2-50s in his career and acc to kohli he cant fit in but dhoni who has 2 -50s in his entire career was good enough to play 100 games

 

Ghor Chu*****

As a batsman, Pant at 22 is better than many of guys when they made their debut in the past .... Already has 2 test 100s and that too in Eng and Aus! 

[SK_IH]

I had this inkling about Pant sitting out of T20s. But knowing Kohli this is not permanent, 2 defeats and Pant will be back lol

Pant on small grounds of NZ is not rocket science especially in T20s, however doofus captain has other ideas.

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by SK_IH

[kohli]

On 1/20/2020 at 8:19 PM, putrevus said:

Dinesh Mongia was not competing with Dravid for a spot,he was extra bowling option. If Dravid was making team as a batsman, he would have kicked Kaif or Yuvraj out of the team.Noway that was happening in that 2003 team.

How many extra bowling option they want, they already had sachin, sehwag, ganguly & yuvi 

[SrinjayDutta]

The TM is going by horses for courses for the odis and t20s, especially for the lower order.This will not end well. I am particularly concerned with the extra pressure of keeping on KL rahul.

Both Pant and TM did each other no favour. You cannot play for india and keep away hacking ugly leg side hoicks, including world cup semi finals and expect TM to not ask questions. 

 

[raki05]

On 1/22/2020 at 11:07 AM, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

bhogle on how TM has confused pant 

he is bang on point

 

 

Harsha talking more sense here than commentary.

[Straight Drive]

6 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Also pandey like rahane doesnt like spin at start 

pant has been one of the best in IPL in such short career , he already has 2-50s in his career and acc to kohli he cant fit in but dhoni who has 2 -50s in his entire career was good enough to play 100 games

 

Ghor Chu*****

Good point regarding 50 comparison.

[SK_IH]

2 hours ago, SrinjayDutta said:

The TM is going by horses for courses for the odis and t20s, especially for the lower order.This will not end well. I am particularly concerned with the extra pressure of keeping on KL rahul.

Both Pant and TM did each other no favour. You cannot play for india and keep away hacking ugly leg side hoicks, including world cup semi finals and expect TM to not ask questions. 

 

Pant walks into this ordinary T20 batting lineup.  In ODIs, his axing is acceptable but not in T20s.

[zen]

3 hours ago, SrinjayDutta said:

 

Both Pant and TM did each other no favour. You cannot play for india and keep away hacking ugly leg side hoicks, including world cup semi finals and expect TM to not ask questions. 

 

Players like Kapil, Sehwag, Pandya, Pant, etc.,  will usually go for their shots irrespective of the situation. Which is what makes them unique

 

In 87 SF, captain Kapil went down going for a 6. In 83 F, he may have played a shot too to get out. On the other hand, in 90, he hit 4 6s to avoid follow on in a test. And of course his 175* in 83 WC .... Pant is just starting out. Ind lost for being 4 down (KL, Rohit, Kohli, and DK) for nothing. Pant-Pandya set it up for Ind .... A team needs different type of players. Such players do not play to provide comfort to the viewers who get a heart attack every time a ball is hit in the air  

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by zen

[SrinjayDutta]

4 hours ago, zen said:

Players like Kapil, Sehwag, Pandya, Pant, etc.,  will usually go for their shots irrespective of the situation. Which is what makes them unique

 

In 87 SF, captain Kapil went down going for a 6. In 83 F, he may have played a shot too to get out. On the other hand, in 90, he hit 4 6s to avoid follow on in a test. And of course his 175* in 83 WC .... Pant is just starting out. Ind lost for being 4 down (KL, Rohit, Kohli, and DK) for nothing. Pant-Pandya set it up for Ind .... A team needs different type of players. Such players do not play to provide comfort to the viewers who get a heart attack every time a ball is hit in the air  

 

Yes risk taking batsmen are always required.  I agree and pant probably deserves a longer rope. My problem with him is, when there are four players in legside, he is still dragging balls from outside offstump. In Southampton test, he went towards leg and tried hitting the ball towards midwicket in off, the only place where there was a fielder. The risk taking can also be done intelligently and pant is sometimes just throwing caution to the end.

 

I was not born before/at 87/83, but saw the highlights of 83 a few years back, and the 4 sixes to avoid follow on. Not in a place to comment. The wc semifinal in 19, i would argue pant and pandya failed to set it up.jadeja's quickfire and quite incredible innings made the final result so tight..but our number 5 and 6 failed to pick up more singles and from 70/4 in 20 overs, went 90 odd for 6 after 27 28 overs. That day could have been different if they picked up more singles.

[zen]

39 minutes ago, SrinjayDutta said:

Yes risk taking batsmen are always required.  I agree and pant probably deserves a longer rope. My problem with him is, when there are four players in legside, he is still dragging balls from outside offstump. In Southampton test, he went towards leg and tried hitting the ball towards midwicket in off, the only place where there was a fielder. The risk taking can also be done intelligently and pant is sometimes just throwing caution to the end.

 

I was not born before/at 87/83, but saw the highlights of 83 a few years back, and the 4 sixes to avoid follow on. Not in a place to comment. The wc semifinal in 19, i would argue pant and pandya failed to set it up.jadeja's quickfire and quite incredible innings made the final result so tight..but our number 5 and 6 failed to pick up more singles and from 70/4 in 20 overs, went 90 odd for 6 after 27 28 overs. That day could have been different if they picked up more singles.

Note that if Pant-Pandya had got out early, Jadeja and Dhoni would have been in early (and under more pressure) and could have got out too .... The pressure is also very high in a WC game esp. when you are first 5/3 and then 24/4. Pant and Pandya then batted well into the 23rd over to weather the storm. Pandya got out in the 31st over  ....  If Jadeja-Dhoni had come in inside first 10-15 overs, Ind could have been bundled out sooner .... NZ delivered blows in the first 4 overs though

 

Ind has lost SFs in 87, 96, and 15 as well. F in 2003. The top guys have usually failed in these games (and they also usually do well in the group games to set expectations high) unless it is a lower ranked side (Played Kenya in SF in 2003). In 2011, we were lucky to play the whipping boys Pak in the SF and Lanka in the F .... In 2007, we again played badly in the must win group game vs SL. Then beat the helpless Bermuda .... this is not a new story .... if we have to improve our chances of doing well in KOs, we need gritty or aggressive players like Pant-Pandya who can play their natural game irrespective of the situation to win us a KO

 

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by zen

[Global.Baba]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Note that if Pant-Pandya had got out early, Jadeja and Dhoni would have been in early (and under more pressure) and could have got out too .... The pressure is also very high in a WC game esp. when you are first 5/3 and then 24/4. Pant and Pandya then batted well into the 23rd over to weather the storm. Pandya got out in the 31st over  ....  If Jadeja-Dhoni had come in inside first 10-15 overs, Ind could have been bundled out sooner .... NZ delivered blows in the first 4 overs though

 

Ind has lost SFs in 87, 96, and 15 as well. F in 2003. The top guys have usually failed in these games (and they also usually do well in the group games to set expectations high) unless it is a lower ranked side (Played Kenya in SF in 2003). In 2011, we were lucky to play the whipping boys Pak in the SF and Lanka in the F .... In 2007, we again played badly in the must win group game vs SL. Then beat the helpless Bermuda .... this is not a new story .... if we have to improve our chances of doing well in KOs, we need gritty or aggressive players like Pant-Pandya who can play their natural game irrespective of the situation to win us a KO

 

 

By the same account DK took a lot of strike from Pant early on too and played a lot of grenades but what's the point? it is still remembered as a failure even though it took a magical moment to dismiss him.

 

The fact that they had weathered the storm means they should have carried over.

 

Inexperience shouldn't be the argument.

 

Yuvraj and Kaif in their first WC played a very important knock in the game against Pak. Both were very new. Yuvraj in fact finished the match.

 

Raina in his first WC played 2 outstanding knocks vs Pak and Australia

 

If we look for other examples, Ben Stokes first WC- M.o.m in the final. Sachin first WC man of the match vs Pak, Inzamam played a memorable knock in 92. In fact Inzamam barely played any games before that.

 

Both showed no match awareness because that was their moment to be part of history but they blew it.

 

Inexperience is no excuse. You either have match awareness or don't.

 

 

[Global.Baba]

More examples- Gambhir and Rohit in WT20 2007 both were fairly new. They got the job done.

 

Smith in 2015 WC. Even though Smith was a star by that point, he still isn't the one of the best he is now.

 

Symonds in 2003 WC vs Pak

 

Brian Lara's knocks in 92 WC.

 

 

 

 

[zen]

7 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

By the same account DK took a lot of strike from Pant early on too and played a lot of grenades but what's the point? it is still remembered as a failure even though it took a magical moment to dismiss him.

But Pant also scored 30 odd 

 

Quote

The fact that they had weathered the storm means they should have carried over.

Why did Rohit not score when it counted? Why did Tendulkar fail vs in 2003 F, and so on 

[Global.Baba]

1 minute ago, zen said:

But Pant also scored 30 odd 

 

Why did Rohit not score when it counted? Why did Tendulkar fail vs in 2003 F, and so on 

Rohit in his first World tournament was man of the match in a must win game vs SA

 

In the low scoring final he scored 30(16) at the end

 

Sachin was man of the match in 2011 Semis, scored a 50 in the quarter finals, was m.o.m in 3 super pressure games vs Pak