Sachin.. if he played for Aus/Eng

[maniac]

24 minutes ago, zen said:

Do you think he would have debuted at 16? What if he debuted at 25?

 

If one condition changes, many others change too 

India has a lot of batsmen in domestics queuing up with super impressive stats year after year, this has been the case for ever, so among such  competition, giving  a kid an international cap at 16, that too against a very competent Pakistan bowling attack with 2 W’s and Imran then people must have seen or identified something super special in that kid.

 

Now people will play the Mumbai lobby card. There is a popular saying in cricketing circles- Getting into Mumbai Ranji side is tougher than getting into the Indian team because back in the day if you represent Mumbai then 99% chance you will represent India anyways. So now take this into context that he debuted for Mumbai at 14. 
 

Clearly he justified all this faith in his talent with the returns he gave.

 

Now all this impressive talent spotting in a country like India  with a poor track record in that matter. Just imagine in a country like Australia with their sporting culture. He must have  clearly been a standout wouldn’t be?

[SK_IH]

12 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

let me tell you one thing. It was in 1987 . Pakistan toured India amidst huge political animosity between the 2 nations . Losing to them at home was just unthinkable. Yet India lost test series 0-1 and were humbled in ODIs.Fans were so  deeply hurt. For teenagers like me, it was like losing a war to them.Sunil  Gavaskar immediately retired after that series. Frankly we firmly believed India could never  get those sort of players who could dominate a team a like Pakistan.It was amidst this desperation that the  'news of a 15 year old wonder kid'  came in the local new paper in a small column. Fans like me saw him as some sort of messiah.Ever since I followed him closely .His debut series was talked about with so much  'importance and exposure'. He was tagged upon  as 'special talent' from various quarters even by foreign media.Ever since his first public exposure as 'wonder kid',  crores  and crores of people across   the nation expected  a lot  from him.They expected him to surpass Sunil Gavaskar  and be the best batsman of the 90s.

To cope  with the pressure of such huge expectations and still maintain  such high standards  thru out his career was  not at all an easy task.

 

Thanks for buttressing the point that Sachin excelled in the "presure" & "expectations" making lots of runs in the process. In this light, now, let's get back to the OPs premise of him being better when there are no intangibles involved of pressure & expectations. Well his personal accomplishments clearly were not hampered, so this topic is redundant.

 Great respect for every player who withstand such scrutiny but that's about it, let's not go overboard. 

[zen]

2 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

It's common for great batsmen to debut at age of 21-22 even in Aus and Eng. Notable names who made debut at 25+ are Strauss, Gilchrist, KP, Vaughan, Warner, Mark Waugh and some more.

 

SRT was ranked 1 test batsman in 2011 at age of 38.

 

17 years window would still give him 170-180 tests, that too assuming that he retired at that age where he was best. Can't recall any batsman who retired while being ranked 1 test bat.

 

More time to learn at domestic would have probably helped him playing bigger innings (200-300) more often. 

 

More matches at best age (he averaged 59.41 in 150+ matches during that age while playing for India). Would have probably ended with 170-180 matches with 60+ average?

 

Since Aussies and poms don't dump their cricketers at peak, additional 2 years would have allowed go past 200 tests easily.

 

Playing for India was beneficial in case of early debut, but restricted in other ways.

Ponting, who is as good if not better than Tendulkar, debut at 21-22. Mark Waugh, who would occupy #4 slot, debuted at around 25 iirc in 1991. So there is more competition to break into Aus team. If we assume that Tendulkar is not inclined to bat in the top order, he may have even struggled to break in to Aus national side esp. early .... a slot would probably open for Sachin at #5-6 (depending on where S Waugh bats) once Ponting moves to 3 from 6 
 

The Indian "fan" perspective mostly works in India 

Edited September 11, 2020 by zen

[Gollum]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

17 years window would still give him 170-180 tests, that too assuming that he retired at that age where he was best. Can't recall any batsman who retired while being ranked 1 test bat.

Clive Lloyd in 1984, he was over 40. Ranked #1, ahead of Viv, Sunny, Greenidge, Haynes, Chappell, Border, Miandad, Crowe, Gooch, Vengsarkar, Gower, Gatting etc.

[zen]

Sachin since 2012 averaged 28 .... if below is retiring as #1 ranked batsman

filtered	2012-2013	15	24	1	633	81	27.52	1231	51.42	0	4	0	89	2

 

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by zen

[Trichromatic]

2 hours ago, zen said:

Ponting, who is as good if not better than Tendulkar, debut at 21-22. Mark Waugh, who would occupy #4 slot, debuted at around 25 iirc in 1991. So there is more competition to break into Aus team. If we assume that Tendulkar is not inclined to bat in the top order, he may have even struggled to break in to Aus national side esp. early .... a slot would probably open for Sachin at #5-6 (depending on where S Waugh bats) once Ponting moves to 3 from 6 
 

The Indian "fan" perspective mostly works in India 

Define early? 

 

20-21 is normal debut age for great players. 

 

If you're saying he would not made debut early and that means 16 years age, then if you read carefully, my post states aane thing. 

 

Put some effort to find out which players debut at which age in Eng/Aus maybe instead of randomly throwing a statement about Indian fans perspective. 

[Trichromatic]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Sachin since 2012 averaged 28 .... if below is retiring as #1 ranked batsman

filtered	2012-2013	15	24	1	633	81	27.52	1231	51.42	0	4	0	89	2

 

 

Another random post? 

[zen]

42 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Define early? 

 

20-21 is normal debut age for great players. 

 

If you're saying he would not made debut early and that means 16 years age, then if you read carefully, my post states aane thing. 

 

Put some effort to find out which players debut at which age in Eng/Aus maybe instead of randomly throwing a statement about Indian fans perspective. 

As I said, It would be difficult for him to have made debut before M Waugh, a senior player, (1991) and Ponting, equally good player if not better and more aligned to Aus way of playing cricket,(1995) in Aus.

 

In Eng, he may have a chance. But looking at his avg when McGrath & Warne are both playing, in Ashes in Eng and Aus, he could have struggled
 

By playing for India, he got early exposure to international cricket and an entitled status. 
 

 

39 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Another random post? 

Not as random as discerning retirement points of a cricketer based on when he last performed well  while overlooking ordinarly patches before and after that period 

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by zen

[rtmohanlal]

11 hours ago, zen said:

Same as faced by other good players .... Apart from managing all kinds of "pressures", there are players who have had the pressure of captaincy too

Sachin too captained the team  for some 25 tests along with his already huge burden of pressure of expectations and still performed  almost near to  his

normal high standards.This despite having to cope with severe match fixers in the team.

[rtmohanlal]

13 hours ago, Gollum said:

WT20 GOAT, 2014 SF/F, 2016 SF, did well in 2012 as well

No one rates Amla at that level. Overrated ODI batsman. 

2015 SF?

 

2014 WT20 F MOM despite struggling, grit 

i agree that Kohli was able to perform well in the first few years of his career. But that time Kohli was just another talented batsman no way nearer to the ' present day  super star. Now we are witnessing as to  how the pressure of expectations are affecting him,  i mean for the past 4 years or so .

 

Amla was a  batsman who was regularly averaging in the 50s thru out his ODI career. But came some big tournament came the choke mode. You said, no one rates Amla. But why? Just because of this reason.

[rtmohanlal]

6 hours ago, zen said:

Do you think he would have debuted at 16? What if he debuted at 25?

 

If one condition changes, many others change too 

AUS/ENG were a lot professional by far  in selection policies  and related matters. They would have selected him at 16  and would never have dropped a boy  who averaged respectable 40 before turning even 20. As others said, he would have played more tests which would easily have enabled him to play 200 tests.  

[Sooda]

 

@zen @Rasgulla

 

Tendulkar’s performances under pressure in Test matches

Runs	Opponent	Venue	Date	Situation when he batted
58	vs Pakistan	Faisalabad	Nov 23, 89	101 for 4 – playing his second Test
57	vs Pakistan	Sialkot	Dec 9, 89	38 for 4 – in his fourth Test
119*	vs England	Manchester	Aug 9, 90	109 for 4 – facing defeat on last day
114	vs Australia	Perth	Feb 1, 92	69 for 2 – soon became 159 for 8
111	vs South Africa	Johannesburg	Nov 26, 92	27 for 2
85	vs West Indies	Mumbai	Nov 18, 94	11 for 3
179	vs West Indies	Nagpur	Dec 1, 94	49 for 2
122	vs England	Birmingham	Jun 6, 96	17 for 2
177	vs England	Nottingham	Jul 4, 96	33 for 2
169	vs South Africa	Cape Town	Jan 2, 97	25 for 3
92	vs West Indies	Bridgetown	Mar 27, 97	42 for 2 – on a fast wicket against Ambrose and Bishop
139	vs Sri Lanka	Colombo (SSC)	Aug 9, 97	9 for 2
113	vs New Zealand	Wellington	Dec 26, 98	112 for 3 – after trailing by 104 in first innings
67	vs New Zealand	Hamilton	Jan 2, 99	17 for 2
136	vs Pakistan	Chennai	Jan 28, 99	6 for 2
116	vs Australia	Melbourne	Dec 26, 99	11 for 2
52	vs Australia	Melbourne	Dec 26, 99	40 for 2 – facing defeat
97	vs South Africa	Mumbai	Feb 24, 00	39 for 2 – solo battled to 173 for 8
76	vs Australia	Mumbai	Feb 27, 01	25 for 2
65	vs Australia	Mumbai	Feb 27, 01	58 for 2 – with one batsman retired hurt and facing innings defeat
69	vs Zimbabwe	Harare	Jun 15, 01	32 for 2
155	vs South Africa	Bloemfontein	Nov 3, 01	43 for 2 – later 65 for 4
90	vs England	Bangalore	Dec 19, 01	22 for 2
79	vs West Indies	Georgetown	Apr 11, 02	21 for 2
117	vs West Indies	Port of Spain	Apr 19, 02	38 for 2
86	vs West Indies	Kingston	May 18, 02	25 for 2
92	vs England	Nottingham	Aug 8, 02	11 for 2
176	vs West Indies	Kolkata	Oct 30, 02	11 for 2 – in second innings, facing defeat
51	vs New Zealand	Wellington	Dec 12, 02	31 for 2
55	vs Australia	Mumbai	Nov 3, 04	14 for 2
248*	vs Bangladesh	Dhaka	Dec 10, 04	24 for 2
63	vs South Africa	Durban	Dec 26, 06	35 for 2
62	vs Australia	Melbourne	Dec 26, 07	31 for 2
68	vs Australia	Delhi	Oct 29, 08	27 for 2
103*	vs England	Chennai	Dec 11, 08	141 for 2 – chasing 387 on last day on spinning track
100	vs South Africa	Nagpur	Feb 6, 10	24 for 2
84	vs Sri Lanka	Galle	Jul 18, 10	42 for 2
214	vs Australia	Bangalore	Oct 9, 10	38 for 2 – facing 478  run total in first innings
146	vs South Africa	Cape Town	Jan 2, 11	28 for 2
56	vs England	Nottingham	Jul 29, 11	13 for 2
91	vs England	The Oval	Aug 18, 11	64 for 2 – facing innings defeat

[zen]

3 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

AUS/ENG were a lot professional by far  in selection policies  and related matters. They would have selected him at 16  and would never have dropped a boy  who averaged respectable 40 before turning even 20. As others said, he would have played more tests which would easily have enabled him to play 200 tests.  

So Sachin avgs 40 after playing for Ind at the age of 20, Aus/Eng would see that and select him when he is 16! 

 

 

[zen]

4 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

Sachin too captained the team  for some 25 tests along with his already huge burden of pressure of expectations and still performed  almost near to  his

normal high standards.This despite having to cope with severe match fixers in the team.

[maniac]

15 minutes ago, zen said:

So Sachin avgs 40 after playing for Ind at the age of 20, Aus/Eng would see that and select him when he is 16! 

 

 

Age of 20 means some where around 1993. Average of 40 was considered amazing for a

middle order bat during that timeline.

 

Sachin was selected for shattering records at 14 onwards. In fact he probably would have debuted by 15 had he played for Aus/Eng.

 

But then there is context, where there slots available in their sides? Then you have a point but there is no doubt that Sachin was a child prodigy that was turning heads since 12 years of age.

[NameGoesHere]

He would have had a better average but possibly a shorter career.

 

Doubt they'd have tried him at 16.   Although they did blood Ian Craig at 17 and some. They would probably also have retired him earlier.However, given the competition from rest of the world, I believe that SRT's Test average would have been closer to 60.

[Gollum]

Circa 1990 Aussies had a MO of Border, Steve Waugh and Dean Jones. Where would they have fit in a teenager? Clearly Sachin wouldn't have played in top 3 and #7 was booked for their keeper Healy. 

 

And those guys were ruthless with team selection, Hayden didn't fire initially so they made him wait for 7 years. Warne was dropped in 1999 WI decider, Mike Hussey made his debut at the age of 30. Gilly had to wait for a long time. So many damn good players either couldn't make careers in Aus jersey or had to wait for a long time. A guy like Brad Hodge was a shoo-in for the 10,000 club, unfortunately was in wrong country. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Circa 1990 Aussies had a MO of Border, Steve Waugh and Dean Jones. Where would they have fit in a teenager? Clearly Sachin wouldn't have played in top 3 and #7 was booked for their keeper Healy. 

Exactly and they dont give easy debut to such young players

Quote

And those guys were ruthless with team selection, Hayden didn't fire initially so they made him wait for 7 years. Warne was dropped in 1999 WI decider, Mike Hussey made his debut at the age of 30. Gilly had to wait for a long time. So many damn good players either couldn't make careers in Aus jersey or had to wait for a long time. A guy like Brad Hodge was a shoo-in for the 10,000 club, unfortunately was in wrong country. 

also when they saw decline in hayden, gilly and others around 2007 they were told to consider retirement 

Also good luck to sachin throwing a fit in Aussie setup on 194 declaration, waugh didnt fear dropping someone like a warnie . 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[zen]

 

 

 

Based on scoring 7641 runs in 178 innings, Sachin is more like a batsman avg 43 in the top order (a bit like Cook in terms of output). 

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by zen

[Lone Wolf]

Not a Sachin fan..  But he was our best & I think if he played for Aus/Eng..  He'd have retired early & his career average would be over 50+ in tests easily. 

What I like about Sachin is his ability to have all classical strokes..  Square drive,  square cut,  cover drives,  backfoot  punch,  straight drive,  on drive,  flick..  Even plated reverse sweeps in the later half.  Not many Indians have had that sorta arsenal...  Not even Kohli