'Delhi Chalo' movement/farmers protest

[coffee_rules]

46 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

So Punjabi farmers are not just figting for themselves, but also fighting for other farmers now so the other farmers are not left behind. Whats wrong with that. All farmers deserve same laws and treatment.

 

Isn’t it good that nation’s farmers be given the respect they deserve. Since issues have been raised, government can’t get away with just making Punjabis happy to stop this. Now all farmers are united.

 

Also Modi commited to swaminathan report. Want to know how that can be defended. 

 

 

 

Aren't you going through some of the posts here or making up your own research? These farm bills are reforms, just like the opening up of India's economy through liberalization in 1993 by PVN. It helps all farmers, but there is a stoking of fear among rich P/H farmers that they will be affected by these reforms. They are not fighting for all farmers of the country but themselves.

 

The agrarian crisis was addressed by all party manifestos every election, state or central. RaGa in one speech said, they will run a system where the farmer will drive to the nearest airport and sell his produce. So, every party does it for votes. At least BJP is implementing what all parties put in their manifestos. Cong in MH (Pawar in 2010) wanted to do away with APMC/Mandis altogether. 

 

You can't mandate by a law to have system like MSP. It is set by a local/state committee based on the value/stock of the product, market value and also based on the operational costs of the farmer (land interest, loan rate etc for him to sustain the growth). You can'y mandate it country wide

on all crops on all markets.  Govt says it will give it writing that the existing APMC/MSP is not going to be abolished. You should look more into the motives behind these protests. 

 

These protests are not coming ground up organically. They are organized and funded by Farmers' unions. Just like trade unions, even the numerous farmer unions are politically affiliated. There are some backed by Congress and Commie parties. Even BJP backs a BKS, just like they do BMS for workers. Congress and Commies despite having promised the same reforms see an opportunity to hurt the government in spite of it hurting the nation. This will die down just like the Anti-CAA/ShaheenBagh as well. 

Edited December 10, 2020 by coffee_rules

[coffee_rules]

47 minutes ago, dial_100 said:

 

These guys know how to scam. They have got it down to a science now. 

 

Who media or p/H farmers?

[BacktoCricaddict]

4 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

 

Aren't you going through some of the posts here or making up your own research? These farm bills are reforms, just like the opening up of India's economy through liberalization in 1993 by PVN. It helps all farmers, but there is a stoking of fear among rich P/H farmers that they will be affected by these reforms. They are not fighting for all farmers of the country but themselves.

 

The agrarian crisis was addressed by all party manifestos every election, state or central. RaGa in one speech said, they will run a system where the farmer will drive to the nearest airport and sell his produce. So, every party does it for votes. At least BJP is implementing what all parties put in their manifestos. Cong in MH (Pawar in 2010) wanted to do away with APMC/Mandis altogether. 

 

You can't mandate by a law to have system like MSP. It is set by a local/state committee based on the value/stock of the product, market value and also based on the operational costs of the farmer (land interest, loan rate etc for him to sustain the growth). You can'y mandate it country wide

on all crops on all markets.  Govt says it will give it writing that the existing APMC/MSP is not going to be abolished. You should look more into the motives behind these protests. 

One thing is for sure.  None of us - not you, not me, not 'tics or anyone else - has shown that we know enough to adequately address this issue here.  Reading extensively and watching people like Devender Sharma and Shekhar Gupta talk about it eloquently from both sides of the issue, all I can say is that there is a lot of negotiation that needs to happen between P/H farmers and GOI.  

 

@Cricketics, note my post above that not all farmer unions are in support of the protests.  The P/H farmers are not representing everyone's interests.  For example, Shetkari Sanghatan, a progressive farmer union led by late Sharad Joshi, has summarily rejected the protests.  Watching Gupta's explanation, you will note that the FCI paddy surplus has suppressed farmers in Bihar from being able to grow their own rice because cheap (way under-cost) P/H rice is brought in to Bihar for distribution.  So, P/H farmers benefit is Bihar farmers' detriment.  There is compromise to be made by P/H farmers too.       

[coffee_rules]

5 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

One thing is for sure.  None of us - not you, not me, not 'tics or anyone else - has shown that we know enough to adequately address this issue here.  Reading extensively and watching people like Devender Sharma and Shekhar Gupta talk about it eloquently from both sides of the issue, all I can say is that there is a lot of negotiation that needs to happen between P/H farmers and GOI.  

 

@Cricketics, note my post above that not all farmer unions are in support of the protests.  The P/H farmers are not representing everyone's interests.  For example, Shetkari Sanghatan, a progressive farmer union led by late Sharad Joshi, has summarily rejected the protests.  Watching Gupta's explanation, you will note that the FCI paddy surplus has suppressed farmers in Bihar from being able to grow their own rice because cheap (way under-cost) P/H rice is brought in to Bihar for distribution.  So, P/H farmers benefit is Bihar farmers' detriment.  There is compromise to be made by P/H farmers too.       

 

I have read enough of the bills and talked to people on ground, (listen to FischerTel's podcase posted earlier), there is a lot of good for all and the monopoly of P/H farmers for Rice/Paddy in gaining from MSPs of APMC is holding everybody at ransom. They will have to give it away, which is not even going away (APMC/MSP). Now with KKS asking for release of Maoists will make it look really political and seditious. Khalistanis jumping in the fray, the whole issue gets diluted and polarized. The reforms bring in free market economy to agriculture and the era of middlemen is going to go away. Hence all the outcry. These protests will die down soon.  The money can't come from Mai-Baap government as it has ran out of money. It has to come from private enterprises with enough regulation/safeguards from government/NGOs.

[FischerTal]

2 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

@FischerTal thanks for the podcast, I thought it was particularly educational to all. It is more pertinent to this thread to know from somebody on the ground in Haryana with no vested interests. 15% farmers are rich zamindars in P&H, they and the middlemen intermediators will lose some of their monopoly are certainly funding the politicians, media as protests are mainly from P&H

 

 

Hellion himself comes from an agricultural background and has lived in Haryana for most of his life so he has a certain credibility. 

[Yoda-esque]

Non issues.

 

Government shouldnt take a backward step.Let them do another Shaheenbagh.

Punjab going from bad to worse.

 

Its no longer the bread basket of India.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Yoda-esque

[someone]

^^^
 

What a dishonest article. Its no different than how the left said that maids will be gone if washing machines comes, due to 1991 liberalisation.

 

And one needs to understand and admit the obvious shortcomings of the current system. It is only due to the current corruption, middleman cycle that this 3 new bills came. Competition, opening of markets is essential, and the concept of free lunch , is not sustainable in any long term. 

[someone]

15 minutes ago, Under_Score said:

 

I wish the BJP supporters here don't just have a single tunnel view, most of the angry posts here against the farmers are more due to the feeling like.."How dare these farmers try to humiliate our great Modi ji who has made everything happen until now by force, let the Army come & teach these farmers a lesson...blah blah blah"  

 

The farmers don't trust these corrupt politicians anymore...Be it ANY political party....that's why no 'Neta' is allowed to speak in this genuine protest platform.

Haha, zero substance. MSP is gone and Modi is bad, so remove 3 farm laws. Such lies and arguments doesnt cut. 
 

A sole solution has been given (remove 3 farms bills),  without even mentioning the problems of both old and new farm laws. Thats how bullies work.

 

And a lot of union leaders associate with left parties, so yes it is politics. In the meetings, they have 40-50 representatives  who are not all farmers, and some have their own ulterior motives. Why they demanding release of the jailed compatriots as well?

 

 

 

 

 

[jf1gp_1]

1 hour ago, Under_Score said:

Glaring flaws in farm laws

No farmer, big or small, will be in a position to match legal resources of ‘large retailers’

 

Pritam Singh

Professor Emeritus, Oxford Brookes Business School

 

Despite the deadlock between the farmers and the Central government on the farming laws, there is some perceptible progress. The government’s recognition of flaws in the laws needing amendments is a notable development. Such an acknowledgement must be viewed positively not as an end in itself but as a movement in the right direction. The farmers’ organisations have gone through a massive educational experience through discussions between themselves, with the government, the media and academics. One admirable example of this mass public education is the work of the Kisan Mazdoor Sangharsh Committee from the Amritsar region in translating the three contentious farm laws into Punjabi and distributing one lakh copies among the farmers and workers. It is through such initiatives that the farmers’ organisations have moved on from asking just for the provision of minimum support price (MSP) and public procurement through Agriculture Produce Marketing Committee (APMC) mandis to an understanding that such piecemeal changes cannot work without changing the whole structure of the three farm laws.

The government’s effort to portray these laws as empowering the farmers have failed not because of any fault of the public relations campaigns but because of the inherent content of these laws. There are limits to PR efforts in converting something to just the opposite of what it is. The spread of mass literacy in India and the development of multiple forms of mass media have certainly enabled a very large section of the Indian population to differentiate between truth and falsehood presented as truth. This deserves to be celebrated as deepening of democracy in Indian institutions and practices.

Effective and truthful communication between the government and the farmers’ representatives is central to strengthening the process of understanding the merits of the farmers’ plea that all the three farm laws should be repealed. The farmers’ argument that the mere provision of MSP and APMC public procurement is not acceptable is based on a slowly emerging iterative and mature understanding that these two issues cannot be delinked from the other key features of the interconnected web of the farm laws.

Let us look at the contradiction between inserting the MSP provision in the Farmers (Empowerment and Protection) Agreement on Price Assurance and Farm Services Act and retaining the existing provision of ‘remunerative price’ to be agreed upon by a farmer in a contract with “agri-business firms, processors, wholesalers, exporters and large retailers”. If an agri-business entity were to agree to a ‘remunerative price’ with a farmer, such an entity will not allow him under the agreement to sell his/her crop under the MSP provision in the APMC marketing yard. Such an entity will be legally entitled to take a non-compliant farmer through the litigation process. According to the agriculture census of 2015-16, the overwhelming majority of farmers in India — 86 per cent — are marginal (with holdings below one hectare) and small (with holdings between one and two hectares). The remaining 14 per cent are described as semi-medium (2-4 hectares), medium (4-10 hectares), and large holdings of over 10 hectares. Though in Punjab where 33.1 per cent of land holdings are small and marginal and 33.6 per cent are semi-medium, and in Haryana where 68.5 per cent of the holdings are small or medium, the situation appears slightly better than the all-India average one, the overall picture remains one of low bargaining power of marginal and small farmers. Leave aside the marginal and small holders, even the so-called medium and large landholders will not be in a position to match the legal resources of ‘large retailers’ and agro-business entities. Therefore, keeping the provision for the so-called remunerative price negates the purpose of having the MSP in the APMC mandi.

A similar contradiction emerges regarding the dispute resolution provision in the Farming Produce Trade and Commerce (Promotion and Facilitation) Act. The threat of penalty ranging from Rs 25,000 to Rs 10 lakh if a contract is contravened and a further penalty of Rs 5,000-10,000 per day if the contravention continues makes the provision of availing of MSP in the APMC mandi redundant.

There are examples in contemporary history of the governments taking back laws they had passed. The Poll Tax decision taken by the Margaret Thatcher government in the UK in 1990 is well known. This was a tax on everyone on the voting list. It had led to riots and was eventually withdrawn.

The democratic mode of governance requires that the Central government should either issue an ordinance repealing these laws or convene a session of Parliament straight away for the purpose. The government has the option to introduce laws later after a due consultation process with all stakeholders.

Future agricultural reforms ought to deal with making small-scale farming sustainable economically and ecologically. The old development paradigm premised on the demise of agriculture is fundamentally flawed in the era of global climate change where sustainable agriculture is central to a new development paradigm.

 

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comment/glaring-flaws-in-farm-laws-181750

Lets use this logic and dismantle any kind of retail chain. Heck lets not encourage manufacturing at global because poor dinesh and his team of 20people can only assemble 50 mobiles a day. Block all online sites and any aggregator may it be food delivery, cab, medicines etc as they impact family owned shops.  

We are good at exporting bodies may it be unskilled labors to middle east or skilled labor to developed nations, lets just stick to it.  

[BacktoCricaddict]

18 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

 

I have read enough of the bills and talked to people on ground, (listen to FischerTel's podcase posted earlier), there is a lot of good for all and the monopoly of P/H farmers for Rice/Paddy in gaining from MSPs of APMC is holding everybody at ransom. They will have to give it away, which is not even going away (APMC/MSP). Now with KKS asking for release of Maoists will make it look really political and seditious. Khalistanis jumping in the fray, the whole issue gets diluted and polarized. The reforms bring in free market economy to agriculture and the era of middlemen is going to go away. Hence all the outcry. These protests will die down soon.  The money can't come from Mai-Baap government as it has ran out of money. It has to come from private enterprises with enough regulation/safeguards from government/NGOs.

I have read quite a bit too but don't feel as confident as you in my understanding.  Will definitely listen to @FischerTal's podcast too.  My conclusions so far: 

(a) these bills are a net positive,

(b) there should be some written assurance of an MSP under which corporates cannot deal even though, in principle, MSP is obsolete and is not currently the law.

(c) there have to be safeguards in place to ensure that the farmers don't get taken advantage of by large corporate entities (related to (b)).

(d) Progressive P/H farmers (and am sure there are plenty of them) should be provided incentives to diversify crops.  Once others see their success, they will follow.     

 

I had not realized the extent of FCI's surplus stock of rice and wheat.  It is appalling.  

[BacktoCricaddict]

7 hours ago, someone said:

Haha, zero substance. MSP is gone and Modi is bad, so remove 3 farm laws. Such lies and arguments doesnt cut. 
 

A sole solution has been given (remove 3 farms bills),  without even mentioning the problems of both old and new farm laws. Thats how bullies work.

 

And a lot of union leaders associate with left parties, so yes it is politics. In the meetings, they have 40-50 representatives  who are not all farmers, and some have their own ulterior motives. Why they demanding release of the jailed compatriots as well?

 

 

 

 

 

This is the biggest problem.  There doesn't seem to be any desire to compromise. 

[Austin 3:!6]

Left-wing extremists have hijacked farmers' protests: Intelligence sources

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/left-wing-extremists-have-hijacked-farmers-protests-intelligence-sources/693437

 

@speedheat

 

[mishra]

@Cricketics tics bhai, Bill in currentP/proposed  form has no issues and is several times better than what was.  Trust me on this. Current Government can not guarantee what future Government would do. Its fruitless to ask current Government. Tbh, u can call post bik as golden period for farmers ( not only Punjab) in India. I am certain that it can’t sustain It will also be effed in future. So why protest now.

[Cricketics]

2 hours ago, mishra said:

@Cricketics tics bhai, Bill in currentP/proposed  form has no issues and is several times better than what was.  Trust me on this. Current Government can not guarantee what future Government would do. Its fruitless to ask current Government. Tbh, u can call post bik as golden period for farmers ( not only Punjab) in India. I am certain that it can’t sustain It will also be effed in future. So why protest now.

I understand what you, @BacktoCricaddict and @coffee_rules. I hae not much to debate. There is nothing wrong said there. 

 

I just don't like seeing tension in India especially when it involves army, or farmers. I understand India enough to know how useless, and jerk the opposition party can be at times to ignite drama in the country but my support is also there for farmers and military that they are always supported and given proper respect in the country.

 

It is just instant unconditional support and love for Indian army and farmers, I am sure you have that too and every other true Indian also. Hence to see them in the street is what I don't like. Baaki there is nothing to disagree or argue about here. 

[rkt.india]

[coffee_rules]

As if there are no Hindu farmers protesting, these dog whistles of dividing the society even in protests is being carried out. Some headlines boldly claim “Muslim” villagers feeding “Sikh” farmers... laanat hain aise secularism ka. This is where they lose out and wonder why is BJP winning elections . 

 

[coffee_rules]

On 12/11/2020 at 12:15 AM, Under_Score said:

 

I wish the BJP supporters here don't just have a single tunnel view, most of the angry posts here against the farmers are more due to the feeling like.."How dare these farmers try to humiliate our great Modi ji who has made everything happen until now by force, let the Army come & teach these farmers a lesson...blah blah blah"  

 

The farmers don't trust these corrupt politicians anymore...Be it ANY political party....that's why no 'Neta' is allowed to speak in this genuine protest platform.

Why bring Modi into the debate when everybody on either side of political divide  here are seeing merits of the bills. MSP/APMC is being taken advantage by only 6% of farmers, the staple crops in FCI is 3 times more than what is needed for PDS. 30% of it goes waste. Still they want the taxpayers money to be spent on something that makes only PH farmers happy.  

[coffee_rules]

Pizze da langar da.. wahe guru

 

 

[FischerTal]

neither side is backing down. future is bleak.

[Khota]

Farmers are very poor and if there are few subsidies given than what is the big deal?